Why Did Iran Seize UK Sailors Near Royal Navy Waters?

[Cyrus]

(Biased lies of Fox News)

Amen to that.

The US has Iranians it has detained inside of Iraq. I am willing to bet that there will be a silent trade of sorts.

My point, that you asked for, is that it seems to take a catastrophe for the Western world to take action anymore, and even then it is with a significant lack of commitment.

Its probably because we insult every other country and shot ourselves in the foot with Iraq and now Afganistan.

Suddenly the shoe is on the other foot and we are up in arms. Keep in mind, we invaded another country and destroyed it. I think that's far far worse than capturing sailors and demanding an appology.

I have to say, I aqree with Art on this one. Dont do onto other that you wouldn't want done to yourself.

A few years ago the Iranians were open to dialogs with the United States but the US did not want to have anything to do with Iran. We absolutely put ourselves in this mess.

 

[drankin]

Yes, but no. Even if it were admitted by all Western nations that we unjustly invaded another country and destroyted it, it does not mean we should now let our soldiers be captured unjustly. Nobody invaded Iran and destroyed their country. That argument doesn't hold water.

I cannot believe that you are now on the side of those that have our comrades imprisoned. What is up with that? Wrong is wrong and you cannot use the argument that we were wrong over here so they can be wrong over there. Doesn't work like that. If it did then we would just roll over and let everyone wrong us into oblivion because God knows we probably deserve it.

 

[Cyrus]

Sure it holds water. You just destabilized their immediate neighbor.

What if tomorrow China came in and destroyed Canada and Mexico. Don’t you think that would affect us just as bad?

I cannot believe that you are now on the side of those that have our comrades imprisoned.

Quite the contrary. You're being the hypocrite right now. Its perfectly fine for you to go and bomb a country, but when you have a group of well fed sailor being held (which let's face it, are going to be returned unharmed), its the end of the world.

Doesn't work like that.

Welcome to the middle east. This ant the Christian west. As they say, slap me once, you turn the other cheek. Slap the middle east once, they slap you back twice.

The point, we are meddling in a part of the world were they don't take things lightly.

 

[drankin]

If they are returned soon and without incident, I will be surprised. The Iranians are going to require something very public to save face. Basically, we will have to show them something that both makes the West look weak, and makes them look otherwise. It's a pissing match and it is likely we will lose. Not because we have to but because we don't have the balls to do anything, and they know it.

The ME is not much different than your local elementary school playground. It's not about what is rational it's about who has the biggest set. And they are calling the bluff.

You have (so it seems) already given up on the whole purpose we are in Iraq in the first place. Our soldiers who are in the streets their don't feel the same way you do. And I'll take their word for it before I'd take yours.

 

[Cyrus]

If they are returned soon and without incident, I will be surprised.

Then prepare to be amazed.

I play poker with a guy my age back from Iraq. He told me the guys there feel like its time to go back home. His humvee was blown up and only him and one other guy survived. I take his word, not yours. He earned his purple heart.

Wake up and see reality for what it is my friend. Iraq is gone.

 

[drankin]

Iraq is gone.

Quite the pessemist. What does that mean to you? Iraq will always be. And it will be a much better country when all is said and done. But, like anything, it will probably get worse before it gets better, IMO. And I'm all for getting out if that is the will of the people there.

So, your poker buddy, is he saying he wasted his time there? I just don't believe you.

Our soldiers there on the streets, mingling with locals as well as the children, will tell you differently.

But, it is off topic, which is a sad way to argue your point, IMO

 

[Cyrus]

Did I ever say "wasted time"?

Pessemist? Eruuuuuum...nooo. I see things for what they are. Not a rosey fantasy.

Thats the lovely picture you have there. Soilders mingling with locals as well as children. Yeah...right. When was the last time you turned on the news? The soilders are not welcomed there anymore, and rightly so. No security was provided and the Iraqis have had enough.

Now, let's swing this back to the main point of THIS post. You complain about Iran taking hostages as an act of war. So what do you call an Illegal war in Iraq where the US now poses a major military threat to Iran? That smells like a a big act of war on our part.

If China invaded Mexico and set up a military base over there, don't you think we would consider that an aggressive act of war?

Wake up man!

 

[drankin]

Back on topic, good deal...

Hey, I respect your opinion on this. But I sincerely disagree with your apparent justification of Iran taking UK hostages. It just amazes me that you imply that it is justified and that your reasoning is "If China invaded Mexico...".

Here is a quick article that sums up my feeling on this issue: http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Iran's+terrorism%3A+Mahmoud+the+kidnapper&articleId=1671987d-0dca-40c2-8835-223f3ee90cfd

It was a Google news clip, I'm not familiar with this news organization but the article is spot-on IMO.

 

[Cyrus]

Ok, the change it to read:

it is justified and that your reasoning is "the Us invaded Iraq..."

Also, I never said it was justified either. I said that's what happens when you mess around in the middle east...they slap you back twice. So we knew full well what was going to happen if things went wrong over there. Now they are going wrong and these are the consequences.

There are cases where countries in the middle east were literally begging to have talks with the US and the US did not want to (See. Syria). If we want to act like the bully of the middle east, don't be surprised that some countries have a backbone and push back when pushed.

 

[drankin]

Ok, the change it to read:

it is justified and that your reasoning is "the Us invaded Iraq..."

Also, I never said it was justified either. I said that's what happens when you mess around in the middle east...they slap you back twice. So we knew full well what was going to happen if things went wrong over there. Now they are going wrong and these are the consequences.

There are cases where countries in the middle east were literally begging to have talks with the US and the US did not want to (See. Syria). If we want to act like the bully of the middle east, don't be surprised that some countries have a backbone.

I think we've reached the end of our debate. I fully understand your position on the matter. You do have what can be considered a point, I just cannot personally relate to it at all. I just hope that the most of us have not totally sold out our comrades over there.

 

[Cyrus]

How can you not relate to it? Do you expect the world to bend over backwards and do whatever we tell them to? When you act the way we acted during this war, consequences of our actions are going to come up. Now they are coming up and its not pretty. We basically trashed Europe, and destroyed the ME. Is that not apparent?

Sell out? How's that selling out. Even the soldiers want to come back home because they know the job can't be done. I think your attitude is more dangerous and will get them killed in Iraq for no reason.

 

[denverdoc]

I think we've reached the end of our debate. I fully understand your position on the matter. You do have what can be considered a point, I just cannot personally relate to it at all. I just hope that the most of us have not totally sold out our comrades over there.

I'm not sure whether "comrades" is a communist innuendo. Our only allies, correct me if I'm wrong, are Saudi Arabia and Israel. Too tougher "masters to please" simultaneously I cannot imagine. Sure we have fair weather friends all over the region, but this is the game. Please saudis to keep our cars running, please Israel because it weilds such political influence $$$ here.

there's only one way out. Well two, if you want to atomically annihilate the region.

Or raise the price of petrol to what the rest of the world pays, and seek with government subsidy, industries best replies. You may need to "ration" gas for 5 years during the transition, but its been done before. People survive. It may even cut a major artery into the plastic but very porous palaces at a distance trend. There are so many ways around this besides force. You could cut the impetus for terrorism behind the knees with a rational FP and domestic energy policy.

But this is the interest of all except those reaping obscene profits from the status quo, and who usually have more to say about our leaders than common sense would otherwise dictate.




"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the ony one."

 

[Yonoz]

You're digressing again...

Am I? Your previous posts dealt more with Palestinians & cluster munitions than they did with the actual topic of this thread.

...so rather than write an essay discussing the minutae I'll reiterate my original point for you which is really quite simple. Blair claims to be disgusted at his people being shown smiling and apparently reasonably happy

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-blair_300307_1230,00.html"

I really don't know why the Iranian regime is doing this, I mean all it does is enhance people's sense of disgust at captured personnel being paraded and manipulated in this way, it doesn't fool anyone...

(Manipulated meaning coerced into "confessing")

...whilst in Iranian detention and yet he expressed no such disgust at TV film of prisoners, who's capture and treatment he was complicit in, being paraded on TV manacled, hooded, in orange jumpsuits and wearing sensory deprivation headware. Personally I find that hypocritical.

If those were agents of another state that were unlawfully captured by Britain then I would agree, though I have not seen the said video.

Oh and by the way according to a poll in the Sunday times only 7% of the British public favour military action against Iran under any circumstances so Blair needs to get over his disgust smartish and get down to serious negotiations. The Iranians are asking for an official apology and a guarantee the British will not trespass in their waters again. Before you attack me for repeating this please note I personally did not draft these demands and have no idea whatsoever if they were in Iranian waters or not.

Well the British MoD has released a http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/DB42AC92-E1CC-4478-9910-B8CB299A6612/0/HeloGPS.jpg" (the ship that was searched is in the background).
I do not know what "any circumstances" means but if that includes a hypothetical circumstance of Iran punishing those sailors, the British may as well sell all their navy and military equipment.

 

[ukmicky]

They should have just apologised got them back and then retracted their apology. Some people have no sense :)

 

[Art]

They should have just appologised got them back and then retracted their appology. Some people have no sense :)

I agree Apologise, get your people home, announce an investigation, publish your findings that you hadn't entered Iranian waters and then protest to the Iranian gov't.

 

[BobG]

Quite the pessemist. What does that mean to you? Iraq will always be. And it will be a much better country when all is said and done. But, like anything, it will probably get worse before it gets better, IMO. And I'm all for getting out if that is the will of the people there.

So, your poker buddy, is he saying he wasted his time there? I just don't believe you.

Our soldiers there on the streets, mingling with locals as well as the children, will tell you differently.

But, it is off topic, which is a sad way to argue your point, IMO

Your perception of the military's attitude towards Iraq is about two years out of date: http://www.militarycity.com/polls/. The attitude has gone from overwhelming support in 2003 and 2004 to "slipped significantly" in 2005 to "increasingly pessimistic" in 2006.

 

[Astronuc]

Your perception of the military's attitude towards Iraq is about two years out of date: http://www.militarycity.com/polls/. The attitude has gone from overwhelming support in 2003 and 2004 to "slipped significantly" in 2005 to "increasingly pessimistic" in 2006.

The military did its part, but the civies of the Bush administration (or regime, or syndicate) failed miserable to perform, except perhaps to help themselves to taxpayer money.

 

[russ_watters]

Well, looks like there has been a little bit of on topic debate...

Hypothetical scenario, what if the Royal Navy began sinking Iranian military ships? Let's say a ship every 6hrs that Iran refuses to release the prisoners.

I honestly believe that a lack of action is actually escelating the situation to a future catastrophe. We are all kitty footing around so much that we allow this crap to happen. Just like with children, they will do anything they are allowed to, plus a little more to push their boundaries.

Now if the UN is involved Iran will really be shaking in their sandles. OOOOH. Please. Noone has any rocks anymore. All bark and no bite. The Iranians are going to just going to soak this up. Laughing at our lack of resolve.

If you set aside the flowery language (and c'mon, cyrus, who here doesn't speak in rhetoric?), how about answering the question or examining related ones?

These soldiers were surrounded by an overwhealmingly large force, too far from their protection (not sure why they were so far away). But they probably didn't figure on this incident being as big as it has become. Had they, they may have resisted capture.

This is an act of war, these soldiers could have legally resisted, and had these soldiers resisted capture and a fight broken out, their odds of survival wouldn't have been very high: but then, the British (and perhaps there were others in the area who could have helped...) could have easily sunk every Iranian military ship in a 30 mile radius. It is a poker game, and though ultimately the British have the overall winning hand (a real navy), throwing it down doesn't seem worth it if the immediate risk is that high. But Iran's actions are changing the risk calculus, and not in a good way for Iran.

I don't think "upping the ante" by starting to blow up Iranian ships is a good idea because of the fact that Iran can just start killing hostages, but the next time Iran pulls a stunt like this, don't you guys think that Iran is likely to find their navy at the bottom of the Gulf in short order?

I think Iran is blundering here. Perhaps this was a decision by a roge unit and the gov't is now covering for them, but if not, I don't think they have the slightest clue what they are doing. They don't understand diplomacy, leverage, public opinion, propaganda, or military risk. Can anyone tell me what they hoped to gain by this? Hostage-for-hostage bargaining chips? (which is plausible, but there is no evidence for it at this point).

 

[BobG]

I think Iran is blundering here. Perhaps this was a decision by a roge unit and the gov't is now covering for them, but if not, I don't think they have the slightest clue what they are doing. They don't understand diplomacy, leverage, public opinion, propaganda, or military risk.

I'd have to agree. It would be hard to look at this situation and have any idea of Iran was doing. The situation has lasted over a week and there's still no clue what's going on. It is starting to look like something that just happened and Iran's still trying to figure out if there's any advantage to be had from the situation.

 

[Kurdt]

I think what has become clearer over the past few days is the specific motivation for Iran to capture these people. It was revealed that a letter from the Iranian foreign office stated that the UK wouldn't necessarily have to apologise to get the military personnel released. All they would have to do is talk about how this could be prevented in the future. With territorial waters in dispute in that region it is clear that Iran wants to redefine the borders.

I think the method they've chosen is not productive to furthering their wants.

 

[russ_watters]

Perhaps, but it seems like an awfully big risk to take for the sole purpose of getting the UK to acknowledge a border dispute. The next time something like this happens, they may find themselves without a navy in very short order.

 

[Kurdt]

Perhaps, but it seems like an awfully big risk to take for the sole purpose of getting the UK to acknowledge a border dispute. The next time something like this happens, they may find themselves without a navy in very short order.

Perhaps it would have been more of a risk with American sailors but the UK is slightly more diplomatically inclined or at least used to be before Blair. There seems to be significant movement on both sides recently so we'll just have to wait and see how it pans out. But as far as I can see I think that has been the motivation and it certainly seems to fit the facts given so far.

Also one must remember that people in the middle east do have very different methods to the west and so that tends to leave us in the west baffled at times.

 

[Anttech]

This is an act of war, these soldiers could have legally resisted, and had these soldiers resisted capture and a fight broken out, their odds of survival wouldn't have been very high:

Well the UK government disagrees with you. The fact of the matter is the UK is not at war with Iran. Obvious no?

 

[drankin]

Well the UK government disagrees with you. The fact of the matter is the UK is not at war with Iran. Obvious no?

He didn't say they were "at war" he said that Iran committed an act of war. Obvious, no?

 

[OSalcido]

Sure it holds water. You just destabilized their immediate neighbor.

What if tomorrow China came in and destroyed Canada and Mexico. Don’t you think that would affect us just as bad?

Never thought of the situation in that regard.. very enlightening remark. I do think it would affect us as badly and that the Iranians have every reason to feel threatened.

 

[Anttech]

You can't commit an act of war and not go to war. It is either an act of war or it isnt. There is no book (or even a treaty of some sort) that describes what is and what isn't an act of war, so the only way one can know is look at the effect of that act. The effect is not War so how does one say it is an act of war then.?

Russ is exaggerating. Its an opinion of his, not a hard fact.

 

[OSalcido]

This is an act of war, these soldiers could have legally resisted, and had these soldiers resisted capture and a fight broken out, their odds of survival wouldn't have been very high: but then, the British (and perhaps there were others in the area who could have helped...) could have easily sunk every Iranian military ship in a 30 mile radius. It is a poker game, and though ultimately the British have the overall winning hand (a real navy), throwing it down doesn't seem worth it if the immediate risk is that high. But Iran's actions are changing the risk calculus, and not in a good way for Iran.

I don't think "upping the ante" by starting to blow up Iranian ships is a good idea because of the fact that Iran can just start killing hostages, but the next time Iran pulls a stunt like this, don't you guys think that Iran is likely to find their navy at the bottom of the Gulf in short order?

I thought this was the "next time"... the iranians already did this same thing before. My guess is that the soldiers remembered the previous incident and were counting on being released unharmed, rather than unloading on the iranians and getting shot at. A reasonable action.

 

[Kurdt]

Never thought of the situation in that regard.. very enlightening remark. I do think it would affect us as badly and that the Iranians have every reason to feel threatened.

I'm not sure that they feel threatened, I'd say they feel empowered. I say this because Saddam was the guy keeping Iran in check and now he's gone Iran sees the oppourtunity to becoe the dominant power in the middle east. This whole seizure of UK sailors could Iran testing how far they can stretch their muscles.

Thats the other side of the argument. I suppose they could feel threatened in many ways.

 

[russ_watters]

Perhaps it would have been more of a risk with American sailors but the UK is slightly more diplomatically inclined or at least used to be before Blair.

When Iran has taken Americans hostage, it has lasted an awful long time. I think our predilection toward resistance is justifiable - and the UK may see that after thi incident.

But as far as I can see I think that has been the motivation and it certainly seems to fit the facts given so far.

That what? What has been the motivation?

 

[russ_watters]

Well the UK government disagrees with you. The fact of the matter is the UK is not at war with Iran. Obvious no?

You must have misread what I said. I didn't say the UK was at war with Iran.

You can't commit an act of war and not go to war.

Why not?

Russ is exaggerating. Its an opinion of his, not a hard fact.

Not opinion, not exaggeration, straightforward logic based on the definition of the word and international law. This is such an obvious thing, it defies my imagination to wonder how you could disagree. Please state your argument.

How would you categorize this act? State your point and make your argument.