News Why Did Iran Seize UK Sailors Near Royal Navy Waters?

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Iran's seizure of UK sailors near Royal Navy waters has sparked discussions about territorial disputes and the legality of naval operations. The incident is viewed as politically naive by some, with expectations that the captives will be released soon, similar to past occurrences. The British Navy's actions were reportedly in line with international law, as they were conducting a routine inspection when the sailors were detained. Speculation suggests that the seizure may be linked to tensions over smuggling issues, although some argue that capturing sailors is a significant escalation. Overall, the situation reflects ongoing complexities in maritime law and regional politics.
  • #91
Anttech said:
You can't commit an act of war and not go to war. It is either an act of war or it isnt. There is no book (or even a treaty of some sort) that describes what is and what isn't an act of war, so the only way one can know is look at the effect of that act. The effect is not War so how does one say it is an act of war then.?

Russ is exaggerating. Its an opinion of his, not a hard fact.

You are saying that in order for an act of war to take place, a war has to actually take place as a result? A dictionary is a wonderful thing.

act of war
–noun an act of aggression by a country against another with which it is nominally at peace.
 
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  • #92
OSalcido said:
I thought this was the "next time"... the iranians already did this same thing before. My guess is that the soldiers remembered the previous incident and were counting on being released unharmed, rather than unloading on the iranians and getting shot at. A reasonable action.
Well yes, except that the last time they weren't held for very long (I can't remember for how long). So this next time isn't quite the same as the last time. Iran is upping the bet.
 
  • #93
Russ said:
You can't commit an act of war and not go to war.
Why not?

Its a logical statement which is very easy to follow:

If it *is* an act of war, a war has to follow it. If it a act of aggression that is different.

You are saying that in order for an act of war to take place, a war has to actually take place as a result?
Congratulations! you are correct :smile:

http://www.google.be/search?q=defin...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Stop cherry picking.
 
  • #94
Anttech said:
Its a logical statement which is very easy to follow:

If it *is* an act of war, a war has to follow it. If it a act of aggression that is different.
That isn't an argument or an explanation, Anttech, it is an assertion. Explain your assertion!

Why Does a war have to follow an act of war?
Stop cherry picking.
Cherry picking? Huh?

Btw, your google doesn't have anything to do with this issue. This isn't a video game and it isn't a written document justifying war. What was your point with that? What is going on here?!? :confused: :confused:

The only thing I can think of that might connect that Google to this conversation supports my position, not yours, but I'll let you defend your assertion first...
 
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  • #95
Anttech said:
Its a logical statement which is very easy to follow:

If it *is* an act of war, a war has to follow it. If it a act of aggression that is different.

Congratulations! you are correct :smile:

http://www.google.be/search?q=defin...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Stop cherry picking.

You just gave us a link to wikipedia article of the computer game "Act of War"! :smile:

I just gave you the dictionary definition to the term "act of war". It doesn't require that a war has to result in order to complete the definition. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/act of war
 
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  • #96
Cherry picking? Huh?
Not you, but --> drankin

Russ, there are no international treaty which define what is and what is not an act of war.
There is no clean cut definition we can use to determine what falls into the area of "act of war" and out with the scope of that definition.
Therefore if something is claim as thus, it must be followed by a war, which was not the case.
It was an act of aggression if the UK soldiers were taken from Iraqi water, which I tend to believe is the case.
It was not an act of war, nor was it a declaration of war; (metaphorically or actually speaking). Which could be said to be an act of war, right?
Regardless if you follow my logic or not, you are exaggerating IMHO. And your assertion is an opinion not a hard cold fact.
 
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  • #97
russ_watters said:
That what? What has been the motivation?

Territorial gains as I mentioned in the previous post :smile: Sorry should have been clearer. As I said before I think we're just going to have to wait to see, pure speculation on my part.
 
  • #98
drankin said:
You just gave us a link to wikipedia article of the computer game "Act of War"! :smile:

I just gave you the dictionary definition to the term "act of war". It does require that a war has to result in order to complete the definition. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/act of war
Drankin, wasnt the first warning shot across your bow not enough? don't ad hom! Or blaitently Lie

I gave you a link to the google define macro, you didnt give a link, until now. Anyway you do realize that Reference.com just copy pastes from Wiki?
Example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hom
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Ad_hominem
 
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  • #99
If you are found wrong, it does not mean that you were personally attacked for crying out loud.

Anyhow, the point is, capturing sailors of another country that you are not at war with can be reasonably perceived as an act of war.
 
  • #100
Anttech said:
Russ, there are no international treaty which define what is and what is not an act of war.
There is no clean cut definition we can use to determine what falls into the area of "act of war" and out with the scope of that definition.
Therefore if something is claim as thus, it must be followed by a war, which was not the case.
Your argument (such as it is - it doesn't say much) contradicts your end assertion, Anttech. Your argument says (really just implies) that an act of war is an act on which a war can be/is justified, but your assertion is that an act of war is an act that a war follows. You are right that there is not set law that defines it but even if there was, laws and punishment are not automatic. The person the "act" was committed against still gets to choose the response.

Besides, just because a person says a certain act precipitated a war, that does not necessarily mean it is a just cause for war. Ironically, your assertion follows that in the sense of 'it is a fact because I say it is a fact'.

In any case, this is all irrelevant. You understood that my usage meant 'an aggressive act that is a just cause for war' (presumably because you know that that is the correct/conventional usage :rolleyes: ), so why bother being argumentative about it?:
It was an act of aggression if the UK soldiers were taken from Iraqi water, which I tend to believe is the case.
Yes (more or less...). So you agree that this was a wrongful aggressive act and therefore a justifiable basis for war. Fine. Good. We agree. The point I'm making by pointing that out is that if the UK so chooses, they would be justified in sinking every Iranian military ship in range, should the Iranians pull something like this again. That's why this is a big risk for Iran.

Most of the rest of your post there isn't complete sentences and doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Sorry, I can't comment on that...
 
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  • #101
Kurdt said:
Territorial gains as I mentioned in the previous post :smile: Sorry should have been clearer. As I said before I think we're just going to have to wait to see, pure speculation on my part.
Fair enough.
 
  • #102
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  • #103
so why bother being argumentative about it?:
Because IMO it is an exaggeration that's why.
Yes (more or less...). So you agree that this was a wrongful aggressive act and therefore a justifiable basis for war. Fine. Good. We agree.
I agree that it was a wrongful act of aggression, but I don't agree it is enough to go to war on!. That is why I am disagreeing with you on that word :smile: anyhow I don't think it is an act of war, especially an act with a view to starting a war.
Most of the rest of your post there isn't complete sentences and doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Sorry, I can't comment on that...
ermm yeah whatever
 
  • #104
drankin said:
Wrong. Do you just make this stuff up?

http://dictionary.reference.com does not reference wikipedia. Their references are listed here: http://dictionary.reference.com/help/about.html

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/act of war

On the bottom of the definition of this link it states the source:

"Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006."

Ohh I suppose you miss the 2 links? 1 taken from Reference.com one from wiki.org, funny enough reference.com was a word for word copy from wiki. Give it a rest:

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Ad_hominem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hom

In case you missed it the first time.

Here is another:
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Casus_belli
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casus_belli

To answer you question, no I don't make it up.
 
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  • #105
Ok, when I gave you the definition of "act of war" you attempted to lessen the validity of the definition because it was from reference.com and they also list wiki stuff. But, as shown, reference.com does just that "references" other sources. In this case "act of war" was referenced from Random House Unabridged Dictionary.

So, can we agree that the definition is valid and continue the topic?
 
  • #106
Ok, when I gave you the definition of "act of war" you attempted to lessen the validity of the definition because it was from reference.com and they also list wiki stuff.
No I didnt, I was attempting to comment on the fact that I could scower the internet and find lots of different definitions for "act of war." It seemed that you cherry picked one, and decide that this was the definitive definition.

I still stand by my understanding of what an act of war is, and I have explained this already. I don't aggree that the capture of the UK soldiers was an act of war, or a declaration of war on the UK. It was an act of aggression, and we shouldn't hype it up beyond what it actually is. These people haven't been beheaded, they have been coerced into appoligising for something that I am willing to assume didnt happen. They haven't been starved nor have they been paraded in orange jumpsuits with black bags over their heads. They seem to all be in good health so far.

Iran was wrong in what it did, but you really think it was trying to start a war?
 
  • #107
Anttech said:
Iran was wrong in what it did, but you really think it was trying to start a war?

No, what they were doing was committing and act of war because they know that the UK won't do anything, though they have to ability and the right to militarily defend their own sailors.

I partially blame the UK for letting this happen to their own sailors. Hell, that probably made it easier for the sailors to sell out their own Navy. The bastards let them get taken away. Completely my opinion, not based on anything we all don't already know.
 
  • #108
drankin said:
No, what they were doing was committing and act of war because they know that the UK won't do anything, though they have to ability and the right to militarily defend their own sailors.
It wasn't an act of war; the sailors haven't been hurt. I don't even think that they've been taken all that aggressively-- they're probably just pawns in a bigger diplomatic game.

I partially blame the UK for letting this happen to their own sailors. Hell, that probably made it easier for the sailors to sell out their own Navy. The bastards let them get taken away. Completely my opinion, not based on anything we all don't already know.

How have the sailors "sold out" on their own Navy? From what I've heard and seen, it would have been a bit stupid of them to try and refuse to be taken when they were!
 
  • #109
No, what they were doing was committing and act of war because they know that the UK won't do anything, though they have to ability and the right to militarily defend their own sailors.

I partially blame the UK for letting this happen to their own sailors. Hell, that probably made it easier for the sailors to sell out their own Navy. The bastards let them get taken away. Completely my opinion, not based on anything we all don't already know.
Who are you calling bastards? The UK Navy?
 
  • #110
I mean sell out in the sense of their public admissions to being in Iranian waters knowing full well they were not. They are probably a little miffed at not being protected from the Iranians capturing them.
 
  • #111
drankin said:
I mean sell out in the sense of their public admissions to being in Iranian waters knowing full well they were not. They are probably a little miffed at not being protected from the Iranians capturing them.

You think they had a choice in those statements? Do you think anyone in the world believes them?
 
  • #112
Anttech said:
Who are you calling bastards? The UK Navy?

Pretty much. I'd call my own Navy the same thing if they let my fellow sailors and myself be taken hostage.
 
  • #113
drankin said:
I mean sell out in the sense of their public admissions to being in Iranian waters knowing full well they were not. They are probably a little miffed at not being protected from the Iranians capturing them.

Doubt it, these men and woman are part of the best trained navy in the world. War is the last resort, they knew the stakes, and they know the consequences of what would happen if HMS Cornwall started firing on the Iranians. The UK has a different approach, I hear a lot of Americans calling them cowards blah blah blah, but that's one thing the British Military is not. One should use their Brain then resort to brawn. Now if they (Iranians) started firing... That would be different, but they didnt. They took them because they believe they were in there rights too, or rather they could get away with it because it could be perceived as such.

Pretty much. I'd call my own Navy the same thing if they let my fellow sailors and myself be taken hostage.
I can assure you the UK Naval personnel arent calling their own Navy Bastards, and arent sulking for what happened.

The UK don't perceive this issue as an act of War, and thus arent treating it as such. Negotiation will be fruitful in the end, with NO loss of life... If it isnt, Special forces will be used, but it won't be escalated into a *war* Thats for sure
 
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  • #114
I do believe the UK has an awesome Navy, they always have. All said, they put themselves in this situation and it really looks bad for them. Not that looking bad should be a motivation for military action but man, this has to be demoralizing and to allow it does not help their influence. It just emboldens the Iranians to defy cooperation.
 
  • #115
If there is any confusion lingering from the "act of war" debate, let this be a good example:

"North Korea equates sanctions to act of war"

Excepting the fact that the Korean War never technically ended, the sanctions on North Korea did not result in a war.

Using Anttech's definition, until a war starts, one does not know whether an "act of aggression" is an "act of war."

I have always found it useful to think of an "act of war" as an "act befitting a war." I find this less problematic, because Anttech's usage of the term would require a woman to transform into a man if she performed an "act of masculinity."

"You can't commit an act of masculinity and not be a man."
 
  • #116
The Iranian president just said they're free to go.

What i found hilarious was that he awarded medals to his navy men for capturing them!
 
  • #117
blackcat said:
The Iranian president just said they're free to go.

What i found hilarious was that he awarded medals to his navy men for capturing them!
Nice -- did we admit that they were in Iranian waters, or did they use the fact that the line between that and Iraqi is blurred (and varies due to coastal movement). In which case no-one loses face and everyone's a winner.
 
  • #118
No idea, I think the Iranians still insisted they were tresspassing and we still haven't said anything else other than that we were not.
 
  • #119
Iranian leader says he'll free Britons (AP/Yahoo)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070404/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_britain

TEHRAN, Iran - President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Iran would free the 15 detained British sailors and marines Wednesday as an Easter holiday "gift" to the British people.

He said the captives, who were seized while on patrol in the northern Persian Gulf on March 23, would be taken to the airport following his news conference, but Iranian state television reported they would leave Iran on Thursday. An Iranian official in London said they would be handed over to British diplomats in Tehran.

After the news conference, state television showed Ahmadinejad meeting with the British crew, dressed in business suits, at the presidential palace. He shook hands and chatted with them through a translator, and a caption to the video said the meeting was taking place as part of the "process of release."
:bugeye:

"We appreciate it. Your people have been really kind to us, and we appreciate it very much," one of the crew could be heard telling Ahmadinejad in English.

Another said: "We are grateful for your forgiveness."
Yeah right. :rolleyes: What else are they going to say in that situation.

Somebody get me off this planet and far, far away.

Between George and Mahmood - this place is getting too absurd and bizarre for my mind. We past surreal along time ago.

Now folks, let's move quickly along to the next crisis.
 
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  • #120
Good to see dialogue triumphing over bombs. This incident and it's satisfactory outcome goes to prove there are valid alternatives to shock and awe.
 
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