Why Did MIT Sever Ties with Walter Lewin?

[WWGD]

I think Lewin said things that can be taken as sexual harrassment online, but probably not in person. A lot of times it is the way you say something. It is hard to know someone's tone of voice online. Unfortunately, people do overreact to things and it's hard to say if the students who complained did.

I agree, I think a healthy skepticism towards both sides is the healthiest and most defensible position one can take.

 

[jack476]

I agree, I think a healthy skepticism towards both sides is the healthiest and most defensible position one can take.

Yes, but skepticism is not denialism. I'm pretty sure if MIT (one of the most prestigious institutions in the world) would go so far as to not just disavow themselves from Dr Lewin (one of the world's most esteemed educators and one of MIT's most well-known figures, and in some places even a minor celebrity) but to effectively commit damnatio memoriae against him, they must have had a very good reason.

There is an element of subjectivity to harassment that few seem to take into account. I am
not saying the real thing never happens, but there is room for misunderstanding and crossed
signals too.

This I find flagrantly offensive. As I said above, last year and the year before I volunteered at my college's anonymous crisis hotline. There were a few calls I received from female students who had been harassed by professors or TAs. There was nothing subjective or misunderstood about it. I heard stories about emails soliciting sex, professors and TAs making passes at students, and one girl who was even groped by a TA. Before I spoke with that last person I thought mostly what you seem to think, that a lot of this is just blown out of proportion misunderstandings, until this girl barely coherent from crying told me she had been fondled by a piano tutor at 11 at night in the music hall. Many of these people were telling me that they had been skipping classes and review sessions because they were afraid of another crude joke, or even going so far as to talk about dropping out because of it. These people aren't just bullshitting or blowing simple lapses of professionalism out of proportion into full-on harassment.

 

[WWGD]

But you do not know (or at least you have not provided evidence to this effect in your post) whether: 1) These stories were true. You are referring to stories you heard. Can these be verified? 2) If they are true, they are representative of the majority of cases. I am not callous, but falsely accusing someone of rape is as bad as not accusing someone who has raped, so it is a delicate issue to deal with. I think the cases should go to court before one makes a decision either way. Maybe w should focus our efforts on creating an environment where actual victims feel safe taking a case to trial.

Maybe to balance your post, you should mention cases of men falsely accused of rape; a false positive is as bad as a false negative.

 

[jack476]

But you do not know whether: 1) These stories were true. You are referring to stories you heard. Can these be verified? 2) If they are true, they are representative of the majority of cases. I am not callous, but falsely accusing someone of rape is as bad as not accusing someone who has raped, so it is a delicate issue to deal with. I think the cases should go to court before one makes a decision either way. Maybe w should focus our efforts on creating an environment where actual victims feel safe taking a case to trial.

The help line wasn't with the police, or the academic ombudsman, or anyone related to the disciplinary process, and we did not report anything we were told to anyone or keep anything recorded, and this was something we made very clear when people called with problems that were potentially criminal in nature, the very most we could do was encourage students who felt it might be necessary to contact the police. There would be no reason to lie to us, there would be nothing at all to gain. As for the second point, I can't say anything about information I don't have, but my point was that, for those who have been harassed to the point where they do feel they need help, it's no longer a matter of subjectivity or misunderstanding, or taking an off-color joke out of context, they are very clear about what has happened and there is no ambiguity in what they were relating to us.

But I agree with you on the last point though, far too few cases are investigated and taken to trial, especially among students.

 

[WWGD]

...(snip). As for the second point, I can't say anything about information I don't have, but my point was that, for those who have been harassed to the point where they do feel they need help, it's no longer a matter of subjectivity or misunderstanding, or taking an off-color joke out of context, they are very clear about what has happened and there is no ambiguity in what they were relating to us.

But I agree with you on the last point though, far too few cases are investigated and taken to trial, especially among students.

Yes, but how do you tell apart , other than by having a helpline as in your case, those who have been harassed from those who have not, or those for whom there are crossed signals?

 

[WannabeNewton]

There is an element of subjectivity to harassment that few seem to take into account. I am
not saying the real thing never happens, but there is room for misunderstanding and crossed
signals too.

I'm going to have to step out of this conversation because very, very close female friends of mine have been sexually harassed by authority figures (including TAs) and as a result I find comments like yours deeply offensive.

 

[WWGD]

I'm going to have to step out of this conversation because very, very close female friends of mine have been sexually harassed by authority figures (including TAs) and as a result I find comments like yours deeply offensive.

Why are you offended by my comments? How does your experience imply that my statement is false? I am sorry your friends were harassed, but that does not imply that there are not cases where there is room for subjectivity.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I think Lewin said things that can be taken as sexual harrassment online, but probably not in person. A lot of times it is the way you say something. It is hard to know someone's tone of voice online. Unfortunately, people do overreact to things and it's hard to say if the students who complained did.

Do you have any evidence that this is what happened? Or did you just make this up?

If it is unfair to convict someone based on something that is made up, is it fair to acquit them based on something that is made up?

 

[russ_watters]

But you do not know (or at least you have not provided evidence to this effect in your post) whether: 1) These stories were true. You are referring to stories you heard. Can these be verified? 2) If they are true, they are representative of the majority of cases. I am not callous...

Yes, you are being callous and you didn't answer my question. The answer is that it is a lot harder to be the vicim than the perpetrator. Even just calling jack's hotline is an incredibly difficult thing to do because of the huge gap in power between the victim and perpetrator. While false accusations may sometimes happen, it is not common. And logically, your assumption of Levin's innocence requires both that the victim lied or misinterpreted and MIT failed to recognize it. Possible? Sure. But it isn't likely.

All we know for sure here is that MIT was satisfied that what happened met the definition of sexual harassment to whatever level of proof they require. That's enough for me. It makes little sense - and has no basis - to assume they were incompetent in that judgement.
And ot reiterate:

Maybe to balance your post, you should mention cases of men falsely accused of rape; a false positive is as bad as a false negative.

But in order for that to add balance, the false positives would have to be as prevalent as the false negatives. They aren't. According to reliable statistics including from the FBI, the rate of false rape clames is between 1.5% and 8%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

And the rate of unreported rapes is a whopping 68%.
https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates

So, yes, this is a lopsided issue: but you're focusing on the wrong side of it.

 

[russ_watters]

Do you have any evidence that this is what happened? Or did you just make this up?

If it is unfair to convict someone based on something that is made up, is it fair to acquit them based on something that is made up?

And to amplify/reiterate from my last post: in this case, there has already been a "trial", so we know someone has already looked at the evidence. So the made-up assumption that the victim misinterpreted the situation isn't enough here. It is also required that MIT misinterpreted.

 

[Mmm_Pasta]

Do you have any evidence that this is what happened? Or did you just make this up?

If it is unfair to convict someone based on something that is made up, is it fair to acquit them based on something that is made up?

Someone has already shared an example of one thing Lewin said, I can share the link where such info was shared. I can't verify if the info is correct or whether there were more interactions. As for the third question, if something is just made up then sure it can be unfair. You have to determine which side is making things up, though.

 

[WWGD]

Ask yourself which is easier.

And another reason I have for doubting the accusations is that Lewin, at 78, has no prior record, at least
nothing known. How many people do you know that commit their first crime/misdemeanor/misconduct , etc. at
the age of 78? If by, around age 40, you have not committed a crime, the chances of your committing a crime
after that greatly decrease (the chances decrease even if you have committed a crime):

http://www.sagepub.com/upm-data/60294_Chapter_23.pdf

And, I know of many false accusations by women's groups on claims of sex discrimination as the reason
why there are so few women in teaching positions in Mathematics. A lot of these women's rights groups are way too
radical for me to not doubt their claims. And many of these groups repeat these claims even after the claims
have been clearly refuted. And then you have these groups broadcasting these made-up statistics, which
may lead women to lower their threshold for what they consider to be harassment. If I was repeatedly told
stories of how I am being abused and taken advantage of, I would pretty likely start seeing abuse everywhere.
Consider even how the media talks about 'rapes' even before the cases go to trial.

And the two links I pasted, both reliable too, disagree with your claim that it is easier to ignore an accusation than
to make a false one.

 

[WWGD]

And the rate of unreported rapes is a whopping 68%.
https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates

So, yes, this is a lopsided issue: but you're focusing on the wrong side of it.

This is on itself problematic. AFAIK, 'rape' is a legal term, to be determined/decided by a court. Until the case has been tried,it is not called 'rape'. This carelessness use by RAINN's --hardly an impartial site -- makes me question their conclusions.

EDIT : The case of hotlines is a special one; in that case there is little reason to doubt the accounts. But outside of this, the hysteria and extremism of an important portion of the feminist movement seriously makes me doubt the truth of many of the reports.

And, again, you have not replied to me either: how many people do you know of, who commit their first 'misconduct' , for lack of a better term, at the age of 78?

 

[Vanadium 50]

And another reason I have for doubting the accusations is that Lewin, at 78, has no prior record, at least
nothing known.

Strictly speaking, nothing public. And, as mentioned previously, we don't know whether this is because of better behavior in the past, or if it is because Lewin intimidated women into not reporting him.

At least,though, you have a consistent position - given a complaint against an old beloved professor by a woman, the woman is lying and the committee who investigated it was fooled by her. Without any actual evidence, just "common sense". While consistent, I prefer evidence.

 

[WWGD]

Strictly speaking, nothing public. And, as mentioned previously, we don't know whether this is because of better behavior in the past, or if it is because Lewin intimidated women into not reporting him.

At least,though, you have a consistent position - given a complaint against an old beloved professor by a woman, the woman is lying and the committee who investigated it was fooled by her. Without any actual evidence, just "common sense". While consistent, I prefer evidence.

How about providing some actual evidence yourself? EDIT: Other than something like
MIT has investigated and concluded he was guilty, so he must be guilty.

And the case I am trying to make is broader than the specific case against Levin; it is
a general case re allegations of rape of harassment. Notice the use of the word 'allegations'
EDIT2 that many forget to use in this area, referring automatically to every report as a rape .

 

[Vanadium 50]

There were allegations. There was an investigation, with the outcome that Lewin violated Institute policy on sexual harassment - an outcome that Lewin has not challenged in public. Based on this, I conclude that it is probable that he did what he was accused of. This may not be the case, but this is a much more logical conclusion than yours: that this is evidence that he didn't do what he was accused of.

Lewin has not been charged with rape. Rape is a criminal offense, which is an entirely different thing than a violation of Institute policies, with different procedures and penalties. It has nothing to do with this situation. Bringing it up only muddies the waters.

 

[Evo]

The thing that makes me assume that this wasn't a clear, unquestionable case is what is said in the MIT announcement.

“However, based on my careful review of the findings of the investigation and my conversations with the Physics Department leadership, School Deans, and other faculty leaders, I believe that harassment occurred, that our response is appropriate, and that explaining this matter publicly is necessary.”

It sounds like he wasn't sure, had to discuss it with a bunch of others and then only stated that "he believes", not that, "there was no doubt", or "it was immediately obvious". To me it's like ok, well, I guess I can see how someone might take it wrong. To prevent MIT from looking like they are covering something up, they had no choice but to make sure they avoided further problems.

I would have to see the e-mails before I can assume anything about the nature of what he actually did. I do understand MIT's actions to protect themselves. Maybe Lewin is a lech, I don't know.

 

[WWGD]

There were allegations. There was an investigation, with the outcome that Lewin violated Institute policy on sexual harassment - an outcome that Lewin has not challenged in public. Based on this, I conclude that it is probable that he did what he was accused of. This may not be the case, but this is a much more logical conclusion than yours: that this is evidence that he didn't do what he was accused of.

Lewin has not been charged with rape. Rape is a criminal offense, which is an entirely different thing than a violation of Institute policies, with different procedures and penalties. It has nothing to do with this situation. Bringing it up only muddies the waters.

Maybe I did not make my case clearly. Many here are accepting the report by MIT on Walter Lewin's as strong evidence for harassment
having occurred. But it is extremely rare for someone to start harassing sexually at the age of 78. This means that either Lewin is innocent (maybe not the accurate legal term) or he had been harassing women for some time during his 47 years at MIT and MIT let it slide back then, or was ineffectual in its investigation for some time during Lewin's 47-year career. But now, all of the sudden, MIT's reports are to be believed. So we are to believe the conclusions of MIT now, even after MIT fumbled for some time during Lewin's 47 years there? So did MIT suddenly
beome efficient/effective at addressing sexual harassment after who-knows-how-many years?
EDIT: Or do we have the 1-in-a-million case of someone who starts harassing sexually at age 78?

I agree with Evo in that some organizations prefer to cover their behinds and choose to let go of people who are politically expendable, rather than having to deal with well-organized political groups. EDIT 2: This is (EDIT 3 often) the consequence of political correctness that so many on the right decry (rightfully so at times, IMHO) and claim P.C has invaded every area of our lives, but now those on the right here seem to be unwilling to consider this explanation. Does not seem too consistent .

 

[russ_watters]

Bill Cosby is 77.

And the two links I pasted, both reliable too, disagree with your claim that it is easier to ignore an accusation than
to make a false one.

No, they really don't - and I never made such a claim. I was pointing out that rapes are often not reported, not that the reports are ignored - though they are that too.

 

[WWGD]

It is difficult to know what to make of Cosby's case. But he is accused of having engaged in abuse for many years before being 77.
And EDIT even if his case were similar to that of Lewin (which it is not, since Lewin supposedly started at 78, while Cosby --allegedly --started way before that) 2 cases are still statistically -insignificant (end of EDIT). If you want to see the power of P.C, drop by any school and look at many of their policies and the unfounded claims of discrimination that you should not dare question lest you be accused of all sorts of evil things. What makes you think MIT is immune from P.C ?

And still, it is a jury that decides whether a case is or not a rape. I don't want to ignore legitimate cases, I just want to be careful about false positives.

 

[WWGD]

(snip). As for the third question, if something is just made up then sure it can be unfair. You have to determine which side is making things up, though.

That is my whole point. What do we do to determine who is making things up? jake476' scenario of an abuse hotline is a very particular one , in which victims are very unlikely to make things up. Outside of that, who knows?

 

[StevieTNZ]

But it is extremely rare for someone to start harassing sexually at the age of 78. This means that either Lewin is innocent (maybe not the accurate legal term) or he had been harassing women for some time during his 47 years at MIT and MIT let it slide back then, or was ineffectual in its investigation for some time during Lewin's 47-year career.

I would challenge this reasoning. Extremely rare doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

 

[WWGD]

I would challenge this reasoning. Extremely rare doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

In this world/life, there are no certainties, it is all about probabilities; best you can do is say extremely rare. Can you find "another" example of this?

EDIT: And you missed the part of the post where I state the third possibility that he is that
one case in a million where it does happen.

 

[edward]

And still, it is a jury that decides whether a case is or not a rape. I don't want to ignore legitimate cases, I just want to be careful about false positives.

True but first a local prosecuting attorney's offices determines if there is enough evidence to file a rape charge.

 

[nsaspook]

There is information about the kind of banter Lewin used in Tweets to possible online 'students' (the net never forgets). It's mainly sexually inappropriate jokes and innuendos to a few people who still have his comments in their tweet replies logs. If his emails were of the same type he made some very foolish comments for a man in his position but it doesn't sound like he's some old pervert.

 

[edward]

There is information about the kind of banter Lewin used in Tweets to possible online 'students' (the net never forgets). It's mainly sexually inappropriate jokes and innuendos to a few people who still have his comments in their tweet replies logs. If his emails were of the same type he made some very foolish comments for a man in his position but it doesn't sound like he's some old pervert.

Still the entire context of an e-mail or text must be considered, by this I mean, what was stated before and after the supposed inappropriate material was posted. Did anyone send him information that may have triggered an inappropriate response? Or did he just make the comments out of the blue? Did he contact the persons first?

 

[WWGD]

Ultimately, if I was accused of harassment (which has never happened), I would like people to ask the questions I am asking and to demand a proof that seems convincing to them.

 

[WWGD]

True but first a local prosecuting attorney's offices determines if there is enough evidence to file a rape charge.

What I meant was that I thought the word is used too casually, i.e., some cases are called rapes before they have been tried, or even before a decision on whether to prosecute has been made. This is just IMHO, a matter of innocent until proven guilty.

 

[jack476]

What I meant was that I thought the word is used too casually, i.e., some cases are called rapes before they have been tried, or even before a decision on whether to prosecute has been made. This is just IMHO, a matter of innocent until proven guilty.

Dr Lewin has not been formally accused of a crime by the state, so the "innocent until proven guilty" law does not necessarily apply. He's being penalized for professional misconduct, not sued or indicted. And since MIT has the right to determine for themselves what constitutes proper professional conduct in order to remain associated with them, they are well within their rights to look at whatever evidence was presented to them, however "trivial" emails or Tweets might seem to some, and decide that it's enough to warrant dissociating with someone. The reason that employers have standards of professionalism is exactly to avoid the situations you seem to be afraid: to someone in a much more vulnerable position, there is indeed a possibility to be deeply disconcerted by what might seem to others as simply crude but playful humor. "Send me nudes lol" (as example only, not that it's what anyone involved in this may have actually said) might very well be something said sarcastically in a humorous context, it could also be soliciting a sexual favor. You could write it off as boys simply being boys, or you might feel deeply uncomfortable about it. To avoid exactly that ambiguity, we simply make the rule that there are certain things that just do not need to be said at all in certain contexts for any reason, one such context is communication between professors and their students.

 

[WWGD]

I was referring to something else, jack476 , but you make a valid point.