Why do air foils produce lift?

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    Air Lift
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mechanisms behind lift generation in airfoils, exploring various theories and explanations including the Bernoulli effect, Newton's laws, and the Kutta-Joukowski theorem. Participants express differing views on the sufficiency and interrelation of these theories, as well as the implications of assumptions like equal transit time.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the adequacy of the Bernoulli effect alone to explain lift, suggesting it does not account for all factors involved.
  • Others argue that lift is a result of multiple effects, including the redirection of air and Newton's third law, indicating that air is pushed down to generate lift.
  • A participant highlights the misconception linking Bernoulli's principle with the equal transit time theory, asserting they are not inherently connected.
  • Discussion includes the Kutta-Joukowski theorem, with some noting its role in connecting circulation to lift, while also acknowledging the need for empirical conditions to determine flow behavior.
  • There is mention of downwash as a significant factor in lift generation, with some participants emphasizing its relationship to momentum change in the airflow.
  • Concerns are raised about the limitations of Bernoulli's principle in predicting velocity profiles around the wing, particularly near the surface.
  • One participant notes that while Bernoulli's equation is not incorrect, it does not inherently explain why air moves faster over the top of the airfoil.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views, with no consensus on a single explanation for lift generation. Some agree on the importance of multiple theories, while others emphasize specific aspects like downwash or Bernoulli's principle. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the sufficiency of any one theory.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge various assumptions and limitations in the theories discussed, such as the idealized conditions of Bernoulli's principle and the empirical nature of the Kutta condition. The complexities of airflow behavior and the conditions under which different theories apply are also noted.

  • #31
Assuming th flow is steady then there is going to be no drag (see D'Alembert's Paradox). If there is an unsteady component then drag is nonzero.
 
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  • #32
boneh3ad said:
Assuming th flow is steady then there is going to be no drag (see D'Alembert's Paradox). If there is an unsteady component then drag is nonzero.
The paradox could be indicating an issue with the assumptions made about the flow. I'm not sure why a possible outcome of a an object flowing through a super fluid couldn't be a head and/or tail of super fluid that simply flows along with the object, rather than flowing around the object as it flows through the surrounding super-fluid. With zero viscosity, it's not clear what the path of least resistance would be for the fluid that the moving object collides with.
 
  • #33
With zero viscosity the system is entirely conservative and in a steady flow, the air parcels would end up exactly where they started before the object passed through. The only assumptions made in deriving D'Alembert's paradox are inviscid, incompressible and steady flow. All of these are met in the above example involving a perfect superfluid. It was called a paradox because, at the time of its discovery, potential flow was the state of the art in fluid mechanics analysis and the results were not in line with reality.

A superfluid is one with, among other things, zero viscosity. Without viscosity there is no way for a passing object to drag fluid along with it. Instead it just neatly pushes the fluid out of the way and, given the potential nature of the system, the fluid then neatly falls back into place where it started.

Flows in fluids with zero viscosity are very well-studied phenomena. Many, many books have been written on the subject and the mathematics are straightforward. Most if not all of the books discuss this very phenomenon.
 
  • #34
boneh3ad said:
A superfluid is one with, among other things, zero viscosity. Without viscosity there is no way for a passing object to drag fluid along with it. Instead it just neatly pushes the fluid out of the way and, given the potential nature of the system, the fluid then neatly falls back into place where it started.
Take the case of a flat plate moving through a super fluid. Why would there be any more of a tendency for the fluid to flow around the plate, as opposed to some portion of the fluid simply moving along with the plate?
 
  • #35
On the contrary, why woul it move with the plate. Even with viscosity it wouldn't. Shoot a hose at an inclined plate and water won't tend to build up, it will just be deflected.
 
  • #36
rcgldr said:
Take the case of a flat plate moving through a super fluid. Why would there be any more of a tendency for the fluid to flow around the plate, as opposed to some portion of the fluid simply moving along with the plate?

boneh3ad said:
On the contrary, why would it move with the plate?
Since there's no viscosity, there's no "friction" or interaction with the surrounding fluid to prevent some volume of fluid from simply traveling along with the plate, potentially creating relatively large "stagnation" zones in front of and behind the plate.

Say there's a frictionless hollow cylinder with a cross sectional flat plate in the middle of the cylinder, and that the cylinder is moving within a super fluid. I'm assuming that within the cylinder, there's a 1/2 cylinder of fluid fore and aft of the plate. Now stop frictionless cylinder, but allow the place to continue onwards at the same initial velocity. The only effects on the fluid before and after the plate is related to momentum, not viscosity. Over time would these "stagnations" zones eventually vanish?
 
  • #37
The shape of the airfoil changes the molecular velocity distribution such that a mean pressure gradient is produced generating lift
 
  • #38
  • #39
I am having trouble picturing what you describe but regardless, what you describe is an unsteady flow and thus not applicable here.

There would not be any sort of buildup of "stagnation zone". There would still be one upstream and one downstream stagnation point (or possibly line in 3 dimensions) and everywhere else the fluid would just slide conservatively over the surface without sticking.
 

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