Why do engineers need mathematics?

[matqkks]

Of course cannot expect instant help but he can expect the lecturer to reply to emails and keep to appointments.
If maths professors cannot teach engineering mathematics in an engineering context then you will find more and more engineering professors teaching mathematics. It is a lazy way out to use their mathematics techniques (or methods) notes for engineering classes as well as their maths classes.WAHT IS WRONG WITH TEACHING IN AN ENGINEERING CONTEXT?

 

[Jupiter6]

I've heard that snotty comment before. When I was a TA a student walked into my office expecting immediate help when it wasn't my office hours. His rationalization was because he paid 20K a year, he should expect help from me whenever he wanted. I told him that if he paid ME that 20K a year, I would help him day or night, but that was not the case and I told him to get out.

Again, nobody said anything about profs. having to spend unscheduled time with students. You keep bringing up things that have no relevance to the original post.

Whether you realize it or not faculty, postdocs and grad students receive a substantial amount of their financial support from grants outside of the university, and much of the money that you are paying the university is not going to them. So stop thinking of them as your indentured servants. They have a duty to teach you to the best of their abilities, but your sense of entitlement is misplaced.

The only thing I felt I was entitled to in school was a capable professor.

You notice the few that do take the time to study properly outside of class, and you will see the people that will be taking the good jobs while you are stuck wondering why your Dilbert-esque attitude landed you a boring, underpaid job.

I'm not sure if you are referring to me or not, but my BSME came with honors and a fine job.

And I'm telling you that is wrong. The best students ALWAYS master the material regardless of the quality of the instructor. Only the mediocre ones will find their performance reflected in the quality of the instructor.

Sure, 2 out of 30 students will do well regardless of the professor. Hell, 2 out 30 people in any class could have bought the Schaum's outline and taught themselves. If that's really how you feel, I would not want you teaching my class. Every point you have mentioned has cast you as part of the problem...e.g. depend on the textbook, blame the students, who cares about application, I'd rather be researching. For some reason, I highly doubt you pursued engineering in school, otherwise you'd feel differently.

Back to the original context arguement. Students learning linear algebra have no idea what eigen values are used for until two years later. If they were taught the application in conjunction with the theory, things would go smoother becuase there is an end result. The same is true for diff eq. being taught a year before systems or vibes. It's almost like teaching someone how to play piano without a piano in the building. It actually takes longer to teach, because it's just BS in one ear and out the other, and no results. Of course, math professors are interested in job security but that's their problem.

 

[matqkks]

Good posting Jupiter6! I agree with all your points on this issue of teaching.

 

[Peter Hiatt]

I remember a student signing up for a class that was closed. There were similar classes available with other professors but this student tried to BRIBE the guy to get into the better professsor's class. Get real. Better professors do make better engineers.

 

[epenguin]

Sounds like you want a "Mathematics for Engineers" or similar title book.

I once wrote a spoof book review of an imaginary book with that kind of title which I described as "Another volume in the 'Something For Somebody' series offering second-rate accounts of subjects for somebody not really interested."

And there is something in that.

On the other hand it is true in some of the sciences students are floored by mathematics which is quite easy and which they have even done a few years earlier at school. That is they cannot understand or recognise say problems or manipulations of equations of, say for example chemical or biochemical kinetics when they could easily have dealt with the same equation if it had been excercise 6 of Chapter 7 in their school math book. That is because when they did the math they never thought or were told that what they learned had any application outside the schoolroom or that it meant anything.

 

[electronic engineer]

Why is mathematics taught at university not related to the engineering course we study?
Mathematics seems to be an abstract idea which does not overlap with our engineering course.
Shouldn't it be taught in an engineering context?

Well, I studied electrical engineering at university in which we learned a lot of math as pure mathematics. The doctors and assistants were always saying that we do need mathematics in our engineering problems. The real problem for us is how we can use mathematics in such engineering or developing applications. For me this is not clear yet!

I'm now going to do my new speclist in medical electronics ,namely hospital devices. I read a book called "introduction in medical electronics application" so i found some relations on imaging theory and restoration of the image which i haven't understood that much. And that makes me worried about my success in such field.
I did post a thread in general math forum here so i dont' know whether anyone of you read it .

 

[matqkks]

Try looking at the book 'Engineering Mathematics through Applications'. Sample chapters are at the following url:
http://www.palgrave.com/science/engineering/singh/

 

[Marty]

Good posting Jupiter6! I agree with all your points on this issue of teaching.

Just wanted to throw in a "me too". I'm also disappointed by the negative reactions matqkks has received to his suggestion and I think Jupiter6 has nailed it.

 

[Nick M]

Well, I'm just a Sophomore in Engineering, but I'd like to chime in.
My opinion is a bit different from others.

I attend a community college where teachers often don't hold a doctorate in the area they teach in. For example, General Physics I & II w/Calculus is taught by an Electrical Engineer with a Masters in Education. Calculus I & II is taught by someone with a doctorate in Education and almost enough Math for a bachelors in Mathematics, and Multi/Diff-EQ/Linear is taught by someone with a bachelors in Mathematics and doctorate in Education.

Now obviously an intimate understanding of what you are teaching is important, but knowing how to connect with students and help them to understand is equally important. I've taken some classes at UMass and found with some of those classes that the Professors seemed to be brilliant in their respective fields - but often were quite poor in their ability to teach the material to students.

Now the definition of Professor includes teacher, which means to cause someone to know something.

I've found that I've learned much better from teachers who hold some sort of knowledge in teaching in addition to the technical knowledge of what they're teaching.

Also, classrooms with small classes which involve two way communication and an environment where the teacher adapts his/her approach to the needs of the class.

Oh - and the ability to fluently speak the language(s) of the students (or at least the native language of the country they teach in). The exception to this might be instruction in a foreign language.

- Just an aside from the title of the thread.

 

[matqkks]

Mathematics is such a powerful tool that we all need some. Here are a few examples.
Number theory had no serious application for 2 500 years but since the advent of the digital computer number theory has had a major impact on everyday life - online transactions would be impossible without number theory.
Most physical systems involve rate of change so we need calculus to describe these physical processes.
Partial differential equations in Fluid Dynamics explains how water passes by submarines, air flows past aircraft and air flows over formula 1 racing cars.
The entire field of physics - heat, light, sound, fluid flow, gravitation, electricity and magnetism - can all be described by differential equations.
More advanced technologies such as radio, tv, jet commercial aircraft rely on the mathematics of differential equations.
There are millions of other examples.

 

[brewnog]

Do you realize you answered your own question?

 

[symbolipoint]

Do you realize you answered your own question?

Just realize that matqkks asked his question 1 year and 3 months ago, so he has learned very much about how and why Mathematics is used in Engineering. He has taken 2 full semesters of coursework since he first asked on the forum. He likely now understands the real meaning of many of the posts given in this board as efforts to answer him.

 

[Dr.D]

WAHT IS WRONG WITH TEACHING IN AN ENGINEERING CONTEXT?

What is wrong is that it is too specific. If a circuits problem is just what you think would be ideal for the presentation of the material at hand, the guy in the next chair would like to see it presented in terms of a mechanics problem and the next guy wants it done as a surveying problem. It is not possible to please everybody, nor should it be necessary. If your teacher shows you how to solve a system of linear equations, for example, then you will know how to solve such a system regardless of where you find them.

Further, and this is not insignificant, it makes the point that the concepts are not tied to specific areas of application. If a method for solving linear systems is presented as a circuit problem, there will be many people who would not even consider applying that method to a surveying problem, even though mathematically they are the same problem. Don't laugh; this is a very real problem and it is more than justification enough for not presenting mathematics in specific engineering contexts.

 

[JusDennis]

As a welding inspector in heavy construction who has to work closely with the engineers I am reminded daily that without a good math tool to communicate with even some of us grunts would be lost.

Asking why an engineer needs math is like asking why your gramma needs fruit to make a pie.