Zero
Including ANY pygmies in a sample group that is supposed to represent Africa, let alone 20% of the overall sample, is an example of EXTREME intellectual dishonesty...anyone care to guess why?
(originally posted by Nactwolf) The crucial importance of intelligence, and the current drain on our intelligence, overshadows all other political concerns and represents the greatest threat to civilization in the modern world. Unless we enact some form of eugenic program or take voluntary action to solve this problem, we are living in the last days of modern civilization.
Ironic, folloing a post by Zero about intellectual honesty (Zero, I'm not rubbing off on you, am I? ). HERE is the full definition of racism:Originally posted by Nachtwolf
I told you, Zero, I'm not a racist. I'll repeat, with a dictionary definition for you:
"Racism n The notion that one's own ethnic stock is superior."
You fit both definitions to a t, your attempts to misrepresent them notwithstanding.1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
Then clarify it. Simplify. Boil it down. HOW EXACTLY do you plan/hope to achieve this? Do you wish to convince blacks they shouldn't breed? Outlaw interracial marriage? You wax on for 1000 words about lofty goals of improving the gene pool, but you still (that I have seen) haven't said what you want to have done.See Russ, this is what I'm talking about when I say that you and Zero have a fundamental inability to understand the issue. I openly oppose (although I shouldn't even have to make it plain that I oppose these things):
Genocide/ethnic cleansing
Involuntary sterilization
Forced procreation
I don't want these things. I'm not trying to achieve racial perfection (I just want to raise the average IQ to around 125) and I can't make it any clearer than I have been making it throughout my time posting here. Your inability to grasp my position would be absolutely astounding if it weren't so common, Russ.
Actually, that's only how the OMB/CB wrote it; how each of the >250 million people who put multiple "X" in squares is known only to those folk; they could be lying, ignorant of their "origins", feeling that "it's none of your *** business", etcOriginally posted by hitssquad How are the race categories used in Census 2000 defined?
quote from a CB publication:
“White” refers to people having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa... etc
Note that, AFAIK, Jensen means "population groups", not races. He may also have been somewhat disingenuous about the "fuzzy sets" part; in the case of US population groups, by 2002 (when the book from which the quote was taken was published) there was ample demographic and other data to clearly show that Jensen's characterisation could have but a limited life at best, say 1 generation?hitssquad again, quoting Jensen...forces act together to produce the anatomical, biochemical, and behavioral differences that allow us to distinguish subspecies within a species, which in the case of our own species, Homo sapiens, we term "races." Because isolation of groups is not 100 percent and because races are interfertile, they are not distinct categories, or pure types, as exist in other species. Races have been called "fuzzy sets" because, rather than their having distinct boundaries, we see a continuous blending of the characteristics that, on average, distinguish the different groups as races.
Translation: because there's a lot of variation, there's no clear, consistent means to define a 'human race', and (modern extension) studies of human genetic variation support the conclusion that 'race' is, biologically, for humans, a largely arbitrary choice.hitssquad again, quoting Jensen (my emphasis) There is considerable variation within these broad groups, of course, and there are many other derivative or blended groups that could be called races...
...the criteria for all of the classifications are genetically based.
Hmm, a quick review of some other threads in this sub-forum shows that Nereid and Nachtwolf/hitssquad accounted for far more posts than anyone else, and (my emphasis) Nachtwolf repeatedly ignored questions, said he was too busy to address manifest inconsistencies in his assertions; hitssquad posted many excerpts from various souces (usually Jensen), but also repeatedly failed to answer questions about inaccuracies, inconsistencies, and other flaws in the case he and Nachtwolf (or Lynn and Vanhanen, or Jensen) were seeking to make.Nachtwolf wrote: For some reason, PhysicForums posters seem incredibly interested in the people at the expense of the facts. Evo's offensive psychoanalysis of Carlos Hernandez and Zero's bumbling attempts to pin racism on me are utterly meaningless distractions, but many of you (especially Zero and Evo) can't perceive them as such. Zoobyshoe is the wisest poster on this thread - he shows no interest in my mother's maiden name or the price of Tea in China; he just wants to see relevant studies, and that's to his credit!
You could have said this more strongly; the lack of a theoretical or biological basis to the g-construct means that it's a dead-end, scientifically - there's nowhere you can go with this, and every time you want to establish another correlation, you are forced (if you're honest) to repeat the entire set of studies in the new context (this is one of the flaws in Lynn and Vanhanen's work). Why? Because there's no firm basis which you can use to claim that extrapolation is warranted.Originally posted by Zero
What is the saying? Correlation doesn't equal causality? Most of these studies attempt to correlate poorly defined "results"(often statistical data based on incorrect assumptions and gathering methods) with preconceived racial and social causes. All this leads to bad science.
Deep breaths, chum...no one is saying that IQ tests are completely invalid, except maybe Nereid, and I'm not sure why. I'd agree with you that IQ tests can be valid, in the right context.Originally posted by selfAdjoint
the lack of a theoretical or biological basis to the g-construct means that it's a dead-end, scientifically - there's nowhere you can go with this, and every time you want to establish another correlation, you are forced (if you're honest) to repeat the entire set of studies in the new context
This is just not true, and only shows the predjudice of the "hard" scientist against the social sciences generally. IQ is the most reproducible variable that sociologists measure, and g is as consistent. Any new test can readily be calibrated on its g-loading, and is then available to add to the data set. Lynn &co. were unsound because they made use of unvalidated data, but that doesn't refute the solid results that have been produced.
Sure, but is it ok to manipulate the data derived from an IQ test(which I don't buy into completely anyways, but that's neither here nor there) in order to support unfounded assumptions?Originally posted by Adam
IQ tests are entirely valid, for what they do. They measure the mental faculties. Real IQ tests are nothing like the ones you see on the internet. They are not the alpha and omega of personality; they do not define every damn thing about a person. However, they do measure the mental capabilities, the capacities. For example, in part of it they test the functioning of short term memory and data management.
1)"Discredited" meaning wrong, Adam. Really.Originally posted by Adam
1) "Discredited" is not the same as "wrong". It just means unpopular. People often claim eugenics has been discredited, and this is of course pure idiocy.
2) It is not racist to say there are physiological differences among humans, and that trends in such can be identified with where one's ancestors come from. Nor is it racist to say, based on such differences, that one is better than another. For example, Australian aborigines can handle direct sunshine a little better than I can, specifically because of their darker skin. Of course most white people also handle direct sunshine better than I do. Horses for courses. Some are better for one thing, some for others. These are general physiological trends which do not really place restrictions upon the capabilities of individuals. The obvious physical differences are employed by coroners every day, all around the world, to identify corpses when bodies are decomposed and such.
3) It is racist to say, based on whatever: "My entire ethnic group is superior to yours, or to all others". Personally I don't have a problem with people saying "My culture is better than yours." It's based entirely on one's subjective ethics and such anyway, and naturally a culture one is comfortable with will be preferable. For example, I find my own culture vastly superior, for me, to the culture in Pakstian in which men marry and rape 8 year old girls, and mutilate them with acid if they complain too much. Screw it. My culture IS better.
Originally posted by Zero
Sure, but is it ok to manipulate the data derived from an IQ test(which I don't buy into completely anyways, but that's neither here nor there) in order to support unfounded assumptions?
No, it's really not. Unless you can somehow justify your assertion than "Eugenics is wrong".1)"Discredited" meaning wrong, Adam. Really.
It isn't.2) Why is it important for you to have racial data?
See, there's this thing called anthropology...What good do those differences(real or percieved) do for you?
No, it's not. I see now reason for this whacky suggestion of yours. It is about functionality. Once again, a good example is Osteo Genesis Imperfecta. It serves no identified positive purpose. It reduces the survivability, physical capability, and breeding potential of anyone afflicted.3)Everything about this eugenics stuff is about subjectivity. So what good does it serve?
Originally posted by Zero
Deep breaths, chum...no one is saying that IQ tests are completely invalid, except maybe Nereid, and I'm not sure why. I'd agree with you that IQ tests can be valid, in the right context.
Adam, Osteo Genesis Imperfecta (Brittle Bones) is not a completely inherited disease. While some minor cases are inherited, most severe cases are not. Eugenics would not prevent it.Originally posted by Adam
Once again, a good example is Osteo Genesis Imperfecta. It serves no identified positive purpose. It reduces the survivability, physical capability, and breeding potential of anyone afflicted.
Allow me to clarify: Discredited means accepted(decided) to be wrong by the scientific community. Just like no good theory can ever be shown to be 100% correct, no bad theory can ever be shown to be 100% wrong. But when the general scientific community comes to such a strong consensus of opinion, you'd be wise to consider it: IQ vs. race research is flawed and the conclusions are wrong.Originally posted by Adam
No, it's really not. Unless you can somehow justify your assertion than "Eugenics is wrong".[re:discredited=wrong]
I wish I had saved the quote, but I'm pretty sure it was Adam who said precisely that in the politics forum: it is ok to lie to support your opinion.Sure, but is it ok to manipulate the data derived from an IQ test(which I don't buy into completely anyways, but that's neither here nor there) in order to support unfounded assumptions?
It was 6.8 million people who put multiple "X" in squares in Question 6 (Q6).Originally posted by NereidActually, that's only how the OMB/CB wrote it; how each of the >250 million people who put multiple "X" in squaresOriginally posted by hitssquad quoting from a CB publication:
How are the race categories used in Census 2000 defined?
“White” refers to people having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa... etc
This lack of discrete access to quantum force vector datum was acknowledged https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=150837&highlight=answer#post150837 (02-22-2004) by the present author who noted in the same instance that what is important from a statistical worldview is statistical assessment of consistency, not discrete knowledge:is known only to those folk; they could be lying, ignorant of their "origins", feeling that "it's none of your *** business", etc
"Black" does not necessarily mean 100% sub-Saharan negroid African. For whatever reason, or reasons, there seems to be a population in the United States that relatively consistently self-identifies as black. This population has been found to possesses largely African genetic markers mixed with a smaller portion of European genetic markers, both within the population as a whole and within individual members of the population.In fact, from studies which Jensen himself cites, we know that almost all those who put an "X" in the "Black" square should (if they only knew) have also put an "X" in the "White" square,
--Originally posted by NereidTranslation: because there's a lot of variation, there's no clear, consistent means to define a 'human race', and (modern extension) studies of human genetic variation support the conclusion that 'race' is, biologically, for humans, a largely arbitrary choice.hitssquad again, quoting Jensen
There is considerable variation within these broad groups, of course, and there are many other derivative or blended groups that could be called races...
...the criteria for all of the classifications are genetically based.
All constructs require tests and statistical analyses of those tests to be revealed. The tests themselves do not constitute bases of constructs.we have a test-based construct
--with no theoretical
Discrete knowledge of the origins of statistical data is not necessary for that data to be used to produce consistently effective technology. Discrete knowledge of any possible biological origins of g is not necessary for the g construct to be effectively used to produce consistently effective technology.or biological basis
Americans self-identify with racial groups with measurable and quantifiable consistency.- correlated with a social construct (with well-known political and social baggage)
What they are used for is the production of consistently effective technology. Whether or not it reaches some arbitrary person's standard of scientific is irrelevant to the effectiveness of the technology produced.being used to draw 'scientific' conclusions
In a statistical worldview (field-independent; process oriented), things do not have innate characteristics; rather, any characteristics which might be observed or recorded are necessarily situation specific.about the innate, biological capabilities of those social groups.
There are deep flaws in the IQ vs. race research, but people cling to the faulty research anyways. We know for a fact that the studies have been done improperly, or the data has been manipulated, and yet some people want to claim that the research is somehow not flawed. That's where I feel that a person's motives come into question. This is, IMO, worse than the "flat-earth" people, because there is actual research being actively done incorrectly to support racial discrimination.Originally posted by russ_watters
Allow me to clarify: Discredited means accepted(decided) to be wrong by the scientific community. Just like no good theory can ever be shown to be 100% correct, no bad theory can ever be shown to be 100% wrong. But when the general scientific community comes to such a strong consensus of opinion, you'd be wise to consider it: IQ vs. race research is flawed and the conclusions are wrong.
Cold fusion is a good case in point for another reason, Russ, one that you or others may not be familiar with. As with The Bell Curve and other propaganda, the cold fusion supporters bypassed peer review and publication in scientific journals, and went straight to the public. Other scientists are usually willing to go over each and every page of a study and point out flaws in the experimental set-up, possible math errors, ways to eliminate researcher bias, etc. When someone avoids peer review, it is very often a sign of trouble.If you wish to question the open-mindedness or bias of the scientific community, consider cold fusion. THOUSANDS of scientists dropped everything to attempt to duplicate an experiment released to a newspaper instead of through the usual scientific process. In retrospect, its a little surprising, nevertheless its a good illustration of how willing the scientific community really is to consider revolutionary ideas. I wish I had saved the quote, but I'm pretty sure it was Adam who said precisely that in the politics forum: it is ok to lie to support your opinion.
Ergo, almost all "blacks" should have put an "X" in both the "White" box and the "Black or African American" box, to be consistent with the CB's definitions, assuming they knew. And a goodly number of "whites" should have also make at least two "X"shitssquad: "Black" does not necessarily mean 100% sub-Saharan negroid African. For whatever reason, or reasons, there seems to be a population in the United States that relatively consistently self-identifies as black. This population has been found to possesses largely African genetic markers mixed with a smaller portion of European genetic markers, both within the population as a whole and within individual members of the population.
and, quoting the Census Bureau:
“White” refers to people having origins in any of the original peoples
of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa...
“Black or African American” refers to people having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa...
Maybe, but without better characterisations of the data than hitssquad or Nachtwolf have given so far, assertions of 'reliability' are unsubstantiated. What sorts of characterisation are missing? Examples:hitssquad: As far as a statistical viewpoint is concerned, statistical methods quantify reliability. Statistical methods applied to instances of self-identification of racial categories return quantifications of reliability in those instances.
Identification on the 2000 U.S. Census form as multiracial was voluntary. A respondent of 99.99% european and 0.01% sub-Saharan negroid African stock could have selected only black and been in full compliance with the instructions. The same respondent could have selected only white or mixed white and black and similarly been in full compliance with the instructions. The crucial criteria were limited to only some Afroid stock and self-identification.Originally posted by Nereid
Ergo, almost all "blacks" should have put an "X" in both the "White" box and the "Black or African American" box, to be consistent with the CB's definitions, assuming they knew.
A race made from a mixture of races can be a new race, as long as the resulting population inbreeds and breeds true. This has been going on for 10,000 years in the field of animal husbandry, and it apparently happened in the case of a group of 35 some-odd million Americans who -- with some degree of consistency -- self-identify today as blacks.Ergo, "Black" and "White" (as the term are used in the US Census) are not biological races.
The two distributions superimposed might look like this. The positive skew noticable in the black distribution might be the result of progressively both greater and rarer caucasian admixtures in the American black gene pool.If there is a g-genes connection, then the distribution of g among groups* of (US) 'blacks' (and (US) 'whites', but perhaps less pronounced) is highly unlikely to be Gaussian.
I'm quite well informed when it comes to this condition. While not all cases are passed from parent to child, many are. For example, my aunt passed it to her one of her daughters, and her grandchildren. Every member of that family is eagerly anticipating the day when the condition can be removed from the human gene pool. They all have very severe versions of the problem. Before you ask "How could the daughter have kids then?", well, the daughter who produced the grandchildren was not afflicted, she just passed it on.Adam, Osteo Genesis Imperfecta (Brittle Bones) is not a completely inherited disease. While some minor cases are inherited, most severe cases are not. Eugenics would not prevent it.
"In some cases, mostly milder ones, the disorder passes from one generation to another. In most severe cases it comes `out of the blue' with no signs in either parent."
http://www.brittlebone.org/html/overview.htm
Too late. www.bushorchimp.comApparantly your reasons for eugenics differ greatly from Nachtwolf's, you want to alleviate suffering while he is afraid of some non-existant threat of being overrun by low IQ people and having the world destroyed.
Who ever said anything about limiting who can have kids? I know I didn't. If something is listed as a hereditary defect or disease or such, wipe it out with a little genetic fiddling. Let everyone have kids. (Actually that is a problem, and we need to shift people off to other worlds or something. But that's another thread.) The only problem then is if people start listing "blonde" or "blue-eyed" as a defect or disease. So I suggest that before such a programme could ever be employed, we would first need a set of standards, carved in stone, which determine what is and isn't a defect or such. Something along the lines of "Conditions linked to genes, and which can be relieved by genetic therapy, which cause pain and a lack of basic human physical capabilities." Also include the necessary "Such alterations can only occur with the knowing consent of the patient, and no law may force them into it."Adam, stop and think about it, where do you draw the line? Ok, let's say no one with a family history of disease that can be passed on can have children.
I think I've covered that. What other reasons do you have for calling it ridiculous?Eugenics is ridiculous because no two people will ever agree on who the "right" people are that should breed.
Well, that's nice, but it's also a Straw Man argument. I also think it's a bit whacky to draw conclusions about populations IQs and ethnicity. However, that's got nothing to do with Eugenics. The IQ-race thing is dodgy as hell, but Eugenics has not in any way been discredited by anyone. Eugenics is not the theory "Let's kill all the Somethingians because they're stupid". That whacky theory is something entirely different, often called "Complete raving nutter ideas", which, unfortunately, dragged the word "Eugenics" into its crapulence about sixty-odd years ago.Allow me to clarify: Discredited means accepted(decided) to be wrong by the scientific community. Just like no good theory can ever be shown to be 100% correct, no bad theory can ever be shown to be 100% wrong. But when the general scientific community comes to such a strong consensus of opinion, you'd be wise to consider it: IQ vs. race research is flawed and the conclusions are wrong.
That's awfully close to an ad hominem, russ_waters.I wish I had saved the quote, but I'm pretty sure it was Adam who said precisely that in the politics forum: it is ok to lie to support your opinion.
Adam, why is it that your perception of Eugenics isn't labeled as such in most of the writings I've seen? What you are talking about is something completely different from what we have seen is the more common usage, even if yours is technically correct. I understand you wanting to remove yourself from the racist elements, and I think you have done so pretty well.Originally posted by Adam
Heck, if the most popular theory about the rise of Humans is true, and we all came from Africa (or base stock from Africa and maybe some interbreeding with other varieties here and there), then the entire "race" section of this discussion is irrelevant anyway. So we can forget about that and concentrate on more important things, like actual problems, such as the disease I mentioned earlier.
That's very sad, I know how tragic this disease is.Originally posted by Adam I'm quite well informed when it comes to this condition. While not all cases are passed from parent to child, many are. For example, my aunt passed it to her one of her daughters, and her grandchildren.
Didn't you say that you were for eugenics? Eugenics is a controlled breeding program for humans. Eugenics is not genetic engineering. See the dictionary definitions below.Who ever said anything about limiting who can have kids? I know I didn't.
I am all for genetic engineering, I think the positive results can be very beneficial. Which is why I am all for stem cell research. I am against eugenics, the two are not the same.If something is listed as a hereditary defect or disease or such, wipe it out with a little genetic fiddling.