Why do people cling so tightly to racism?

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The discussion centers on the motivations behind individuals who attempt to scientifically justify racism. Key points include the psychological need for some to reconcile lifelong beliefs, alleviate guilt, and bolster self-esteem through a perceived racial superiority. Participants express skepticism about the validity of studies that support racist ideologies, arguing that such research often lacks rigorous testing and is driven by an agenda rather than objective inquiry. Concerns are raised about the reliability of data and the biases of researchers, suggesting that many studies are funded by those with a vested interest in promoting racial propaganda. The conversation also touches on the broader implications of attributing socio-economic disparities to race versus considering factors like poverty and education. Overall, the dialogue critiques the misuse of scientific claims to perpetuate racism and emphasizes the need for critical evaluation of research methodologies and motives.
  • #61
Including ANY pygmies in a sample group that is supposed to represent Africa, let alone 20% of the overall sample, is an example of EXTREME intellectual dishonesty...anyone care to guess why?
 
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  • #62
Actually Nachtwolf's problem is that he has an irrational fear that people with what he considers "substandard" IQ's are going to take over the world.

Here's what he posted in another thread recently:

(originally posted by Nactwolf) The crucial importance of intelligence, and the current drain on our intelligence, overshadows all other political concerns and represents the greatest threat to civilization in the modern world. Unless we enact some form of eugenic program or take voluntary action to solve this problem, we are living in the last days of modern civilization.

He doesn't have the intelligence to grasp the fact that there has been a broad range of "IQ's" since man appeared on this planet. The fact that IQ tests were developed over the last 70 years doesn't mean that up until then everyone had high IQ's and now there is this sudden critical threat to mankind of being bred out of existence by people of lower IQ's as he claims.

Nachtwolf is just a crackpot, the fact that he likes to put down entire races based on the biased "reports" he likes to mention, over and over and over, is just another one of his shortcommings.
 
  • #63
Originally posted by Nachtwolf
I told you, Zero, I'm not a racist. I'll repeat, with a dictionary definition for you:

"Racism n The notion that one's own ethnic stock is superior."
Ironic, folloing a post by Zero about intellectual honesty (Zero, I'm not rubbing off on you, am I? ). HERE is the full definition of racism:
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
You fit both definitions to a t, your attempts to misrepresent them notwithstanding.
See Russ, this is what I'm talking about when I say that you and Zero have a fundamental inability to understand the issue. I openly oppose (although I shouldn't even have to make it plain that I oppose these things):

Genocide/ethnic cleansing
Involuntary sterilization
Forced procreation

I don't want these things. I'm not trying to achieve racial perfection (I just want to raise the average IQ to around 125) and I can't make it any clearer than I have been making it throughout my time posting here. Your inability to grasp my position would be absolutely astounding if it weren't so common, Russ.
Then clarify it. Simplify. Boil it down. HOW EXACTLY do you plan/hope to achieve this? Do you wish to convince blacks they shouldn't breed? Outlaw interracial marriage? You wax on for 1000 words about lofty goals of improving the gene pool, but you still (that I have seen) haven't said what you want to have done.
 
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  • #64
Russ, I hope you never, EVER rub off on me...capitalist scum!

I DO wonder though...you make no bones about your political beliefs, nor do I...and neither of us feels the need to hide behind a thousand words, we just state what we believe as simply as possible. No need to try to distract from this issue at hand(well, except for when you bring up that "liberal media" nonsense...LOL) Why would someone hid3e their views behind rhetoric?
Further, what is all the constant insults, and claims to be somehow magically smarter than EVERYONE?
 
  • #65


Originally posted by hitssquad How are the race categories used in Census 2000 defined?
quote from a CB publication:
“White” refers to people having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa...
etc
Actually, that's only how the OMB/CB wrote it; how each of the >250 million people who put multiple "X" in squares is known only to those folk; they could be lying, ignorant of their "origins", feeling that "it's none of your *** business", etc

[Edit: this para added]
In fact, from studies which Jensen himself cites, we know that almost all those who put an "X" in the "Black" square should (if they only knew) have also put an "X" in the "White" square, and a great many the other way (and almost all the "Indian (Amer.)" an "X" in the "White" square too) ... assuming they wanted to answer the CB's question accurately.

BTW, to what extent do younger people in the US feel uneasy about their 'race'? For example, are there large numbers who feel it's not important to them, or who cherish their rich ancestry (so a single label is anathema)?
hitssquad again, quoting Jensen...forces act together to produce the anatomical, biochemical, and behavioral differences that allow us to distinguish subspecies within a species, which in the case of our own species, Homo sapiens, we term "races." Because isolation of groups is not 100 percent and because races are interfertile, they are not distinct categories, or pure types, as exist in other species. Races have been called "fuzzy sets" because, rather than their having distinct boundaries, we see a continuous blending of the characteristics that, on average, distinguish the different groups as races.
Note that, AFAIK, Jensen means "population groups", not races. He may also have been somewhat disingenuous about the "fuzzy sets" part; in the case of US population groups, by 2002 (when the book from which the quote was taken was published) there was ample demographic and other data to clearly show that Jensen's characterisation could have but a limited life at best, say 1 generation?
hitssquad again, quoting Jensen (my emphasis) There is considerable variation within these broad groups, of course, and there are many other derivative or blended groups that could be called races...
...the criteria for all of the classifications are genetically based.
Translation: because there's a lot of variation, there's no clear, consistent means to define a 'human race', and (modern extension) studies of human genetic variation support the conclusion that 'race' is, biologically, for humans, a largely arbitrary choice.

So, in summary (and somewhat oversimplified), we have a test-based construct - with no theoretical or biological basis - correlated with a social construct (with well-known political and social baggage) being used to draw 'scientific' conclusions about the innate, biological capabilities of those social groups. Oh, and which conclusions conveniently support the political and social agendas of some members of the dominant group.

[Edit: added para about multiple answers in the 2000 Census]
 
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  • #66
Nachtwolf wrote: For some reason, PhysicForums posters seem incredibly interested in the people at the expense of the facts. Evo's offensive psychoanalysis of Carlos Hernandez and Zero's bumbling attempts to pin racism on me are utterly meaningless distractions, but many of you (especially Zero and Evo) can't perceive them as such. Zoobyshoe is the wisest poster on this thread - he shows no interest in my mother's maiden name or the price of Tea in China; he just wants to see relevant studies, and that's to his credit!
Hmm, a quick review of some other threads in this sub-forum shows that Nereid and Nachtwolf/hitssquad accounted for far more posts than anyone else, and (my emphasis) Nachtwolf repeatedly ignored questions, said he was too busy to address manifest inconsistencies in his assertions; hitssquad posted many excerpts from various souces (usually Jensen), but also repeatedly failed to answer questions about inaccuracies, inconsistencies, and other flaws in the case he and Nachtwolf (or Lynn and Vanhanen, or Jensen) were seeking to make.

Nachtwolf's talk of 'facts' and 'distractions' is particularly ironic; how does the English expression go? 'the pot calling the kettle black'?
 
  • #67
What is the saying? Correlation doesn't equal causality? Most of these studies attempt to correlate poorly defined "results"(often statistical data based on incorrect assumptions and gathering methods) with preconceived racial and social causes. All this leads to bad science.
 
  • #68
Originally posted by Zero
What is the saying? Correlation doesn't equal causality? Most of these studies attempt to correlate poorly defined "results"(often statistical data based on incorrect assumptions and gathering methods) with preconceived racial and social causes. All this leads to bad science.
You could have said this more strongly; the lack of a theoretical or biological basis to the g-construct means that it's a dead-end, scientifically - there's nowhere you can go with this, and every time you want to establish another correlation, you are forced (if you're honest) to repeat the entire set of studies in the new context (this is one of the flaws in Lynn and Vanhanen's work). Why? Because there's no firm basis which you can use to claim that extrapolation is warranted.

In the science I am familiar with, correlation is interesting, but of limited value unless underpinned by a theory whose predictions can be tested beyond the special case in which the correlation was first observed.
 
  • #69
the lack of a theoretical or biological basis to the g-construct means that it's a dead-end, scientifically - there's nowhere you can go with this, and every time you want to establish another correlation, you are forced (if you're honest) to repeat the entire set of studies in the new context

This is just not true, and only shows the predjudice of the "hard" scientist against the social sciences generally. IQ is the most reproducible variable that sociologists measure, and g is as consistent. Any new test can readily be calibrated on its g-loading, and is then available to add to the data set. Lynn &co. were unsound because they made use of unvalidated data, but that doesn't refute the solid results that have been produced.
 
  • #70
Originally posted by selfAdjoint
the lack of a theoretical or biological basis to the g-construct means that it's a dead-end, scientifically - there's nowhere you can go with this, and every time you want to establish another correlation, you are forced (if you're honest) to repeat the entire set of studies in the new context

This is just not true, and only shows the predjudice of the "hard" scientist against the social sciences generally. IQ is the most reproducible variable that sociologists measure, and g is as consistent. Any new test can readily be calibrated on its g-loading, and is then available to add to the data set. Lynn &co. were unsound because they made use of unvalidated data, but that doesn't refute the solid results that have been produced.
Deep breaths, chum...no one is saying that IQ tests are completely invalid, except maybe Nereid, and I'm not sure why. I'd agree with you that IQ tests can be valid, in the right context.
 
  • #71
1) "Discredited" is not the same as "wrong". It just means unpopular. People often claim eugenics has been discredited, and this is of course pure idiocy.

2) It is not racist to say there are physiological differences among humans, and that trends in such can be identified with where one's ancestors come from. Nor is it racist to say, based on such differences, that one is better than another. For example, Australian aborigines can handle direct sunshine a little better than I can, specifically because of their darker skin. Of course most white people also handle direct sunshine better than I do. Horses for courses. Some are better for one thing, some for others. These are general physiological trends which do not really place restrictions upon the capabilities of individuals. The obvious physical differences are employed by coroners every day, all around the world, to identify corpses when bodies are decomposed and such.

3) It is racist to say, based on whatever: "My entire ethnic group is superior to yours, or to all others". Personally I don't have a problem with people saying "My culture is better than yours." It's based entirely on one's subjective ethics and such anyway, and naturally a culture one is comfortable with will be preferable. For example, I find my own culture vastly superior, for me, to the culture in Pakstian in which men marry and rape 8 year old girls, and mutilate them with acid if they complain too much. Screw it. My culture IS better.
 
  • #72
IQ tests are entirely valid, for what they do. They measure the mental faculties. Real IQ tests are nothing like the ones you see on the internet. They are not the alpha and omega of personality; they do not define every damn thing about a person. However, they do measure the mental capabilities, the capacities. For example, in part of it they test the functioning of short term memory and data management.
 
  • #73
Originally posted by Adam
IQ tests are entirely valid, for what they do. They measure the mental faculties. Real IQ tests are nothing like the ones you see on the internet. They are not the alpha and omega of personality; they do not define every damn thing about a person. However, they do measure the mental capabilities, the capacities. For example, in part of it they test the functioning of short term memory and data management.
Sure, but is it ok to manipulate the data derived from an IQ test(which I don't buy into completely anyways, but that's neither here nor there) in order to support unfounded assumptions?
 
  • #74
Originally posted by Adam
1) "Discredited" is not the same as "wrong". It just means unpopular. People often claim eugenics has been discredited, and this is of course pure idiocy.

2) It is not racist to say there are physiological differences among humans, and that trends in such can be identified with where one's ancestors come from. Nor is it racist to say, based on such differences, that one is better than another. For example, Australian aborigines can handle direct sunshine a little better than I can, specifically because of their darker skin. Of course most white people also handle direct sunshine better than I do. Horses for courses. Some are better for one thing, some for others. These are general physiological trends which do not really place restrictions upon the capabilities of individuals. The obvious physical differences are employed by coroners every day, all around the world, to identify corpses when bodies are decomposed and such.

3) It is racist to say, based on whatever: "My entire ethnic group is superior to yours, or to all others". Personally I don't have a problem with people saying "My culture is better than yours." It's based entirely on one's subjective ethics and such anyway, and naturally a culture one is comfortable with will be preferable. For example, I find my own culture vastly superior, for me, to the culture in Pakstian in which men marry and rape 8 year old girls, and mutilate them with acid if they complain too much. Screw it. My culture IS better.
1)"Discredited" meaning wrong, Adam. Really.

2) Why is it important for you to have racial data? What good do those differences(real or percieved) do for you?

3)Everything about this eugenics stuff is about subjectivity. So what good does it serve?
 
  • #75
Originally posted by Zero
Sure, but is it ok to manipulate the data derived from an IQ test(which I don't buy into completely anyways, but that's neither here nor there) in order to support unfounded assumptions?

If the conclusion is "unsupported", then obviously the data does not support the assumptions. Kinda obvious.
 
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  • #76
1)"Discredited" meaning wrong, Adam. Really.
No, it's really not. Unless you can somehow justify your assertion than "Eugenics is wrong".

2) Why is it important for you to have racial data?
It isn't.

What good do those differences(real or percieved) do for you?
See, there's this thing called anthropology...

There's this other thing called medicine...

There's this other thing called palaeontology...

3)Everything about this eugenics stuff is about subjectivity. So what good does it serve?
No, it's not. I see now reason for this whacky suggestion of yours. It is about functionality. Once again, a good example is Osteo Genesis Imperfecta. It serves no identified positive purpose. It reduces the survivability, physical capability, and breeding potential of anyone afflicted.
 
  • #77
Originally posted by Zero
Deep breaths, chum...no one is saying that IQ tests are completely invalid, except maybe Nereid, and I'm not sure why. I'd agree with you that IQ tests can be valid, in the right context.
:frown: [b(] Nereid did not say that; in fact, in several posts - including at least one in reply to SelfAdjoint - Nereid stated that the g-construct may be relatively unremarkable, but that there seemed to be big problems with extending it down (e.g. genes) and up (e.g. national wealth).

Why is it a scientific dead end?
Because1, to oversimplify, theories and their falsification are the heart of science; an operational construct may play a temporary, helpful role, but it must be replaced by a decent theory for the field to progress (of course, it may take a century or two to get there!)

Because2, if IQ/g is something to do with the brain, and is so powerful (look at the list of correlations!), it's odd that our neuroscientist colleagues haven't found anything yet. My goodness, even 'consciousness' is slowly yielding its secrets! Of course, this is not to say that one day something will turn up. :smile:
 
  • #78
Originally posted by Adam
Once again, a good example is Osteo Genesis Imperfecta. It serves no identified positive purpose. It reduces the survivability, physical capability, and breeding potential of anyone afflicted.
Adam, Osteo Genesis Imperfecta (Brittle Bones) is not a completely inherited disease. While some minor cases are inherited, most severe cases are not. Eugenics would not prevent it.

"In some cases, mostly milder ones, the disorder passes from one generation to another. In most severe cases it comes `out of the blue' with no signs in either parent."

http://www.brittlebone.org/html/overview.htm

Apparantly your reasons for eugenics differ greatly from Nachtwolf's, you want to alleviate suffering while he is afraid of some non-existant threat of being overrun by low IQ people and having the world destroyed.

Adam, stop and think about it, where do you draw the line? Ok, let's say no one with a family history of disease that can be passed on can have children. Ok, anyone who has a family member that has had cancer, heart disease, leukemia, diabetes, etc, etc, etc... There will not be a single person left on Earth allowed to have a child. Or, Nachtwolf's worse nightmare, only a handful of low IQ people in Africa will be allowed to breed!

Eugenics is ridiculous because no two people will ever agree on who the "right" people are that should breed.

If you "personally" have a family history that holds a great risk of passing a dibilitating disease to a child, I agree that you have the right to decide not to have children, if that is your choice. That is not eugenics.
 
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  • #79
Originally posted by Adam
No, it's really not. Unless you can somehow justify your assertion than "Eugenics is wrong".[re:discredited=wrong]
Allow me to clarify: Discredited means accepted(decided) to be wrong by the scientific community. Just like no good theory can ever be shown to be 100% correct, no bad theory can ever be shown to be 100% wrong. But when the general scientific community comes to such a strong consensus of opinion, you'd be wise to consider it: IQ vs. race research is flawed and the conclusions are wrong.

If you wish to question the open-mindedness or bias of the scientific community, consider cold fusion. THOUSANDS of scientists dropped everything to attempt to duplicate an experiment released to a newspaper instead of through the usual scientific process. In retrospect, its a little surprising, nevertheless its a good illustration of how willing the scientific community really is to consider revolutionary ideas.
Sure, but is it ok to manipulate the data derived from an IQ test(which I don't buy into completely anyways, but that's neither here nor there) in order to support unfounded assumptions?
I wish I had saved the quote, but I'm pretty sure it was Adam who said precisely that in the politics forum: it is ok to lie to support your opinion.
 
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  • #80
Originally posted by Nereid
Originally posted by hitssquad quoting from a CB publication:
How are the race categories used in Census 2000 defined?

“White” refers to people having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa... etc
Actually, that's only how the OMB/CB wrote it; how each of the >250 million people who put multiple "X" in squares
It was 6.8 million people who put multiple "X" in squares in Question 6 (Q6).


--
The overwhelming majority of
the U.S. population reported
only one race.


In Census 2000, nearly 98 percent
of all respondents reported only
one race (see Table 1). The largest
group reported White alone, accounting
for 75 percent of all
people living in the United States.
The Black or African American
alone population represented
12 percent of the total. [/color]
--
(p3 of 11)
http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-1.pdf



--
Only 2.4 percent of all
respondents reported two or
more races.


The Two or more races category
represents all respondents who reported
more than one race. The six
race categories of Census 2000 can
be put together in 57 possible combinations
of two, three, four, five, or
six races (see Table 2). Less than
3 percent of the total population reported
more than one race. Of the
6.8 million respondents who reported
two or more races, 93 percent
reported exactly two. [/color]
--
(p5 of 11)
http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-1.pdf




is known only to those folk; they could be lying, ignorant of their "origins", feeling that "it's none of your *** business", etc
This lack of discrete access to quantum force vector datum was acknowledged https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=150837&highlight=answer#post150837 (02-22-2004) by the present author who noted in the same instance that what is important from a statistical worldview is statistical assessment of consistency, not discrete knowledge:


--
Nereid wrote:
with 'race' ... self-identification hardly constitutes a reliable basis,

As far as a statistical viewpoint is concerned, statistical methods quantify reliability. Statistical methods applied to instances of self-identification of racial categories return quantifications of reliability in those instances.

Unreliability in an instance of racial self-identification would imply, over the lifetimes of a substantial portion of individuals in the populations under study, systematic inconsistency in the answering of the institutionally-posed race-category question. E.g., a given unreliably-self-identifying individual may claim to be black one year, white the next, then asian, then American Indian, etc. [/color]
--
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=150837&highlight=answer#post150837




In fact, from studies which Jensen himself cites, we know that almost all those who put an "X" in the "Black" square should (if they only knew) have also put an "X" in the "White" square,
"Black" does not necessarily mean 100% sub-Saharan negroid African. For whatever reason, or reasons, there seems to be a population in the United States that relatively consistently self-identifies as black. This population has been found to possesses largely African genetic markers mixed with a smaller portion of European genetic markers, both within the population as a whole and within individual members of the population.

A recent estimate puts the average percetage of Europeans markers in individual self-identified blacks at 17%:


--
Shriver's project is not complete, but with data from 25 sites already in, he is coming up with 17-18 percent white ancestry among African-Americans. That's the equivalent of 106 of those 128 of your ancestors from seven generations ago having been Africans and 22 Europeans.

According to Shriver, only about 10 percent of African-Americans are over 50 percent white.

This genetic database is restricted to adults. Black-white married couples quadrupled in number between the 1960 Census and 1990 Census, so the admixture rates among children are no doubt higher than among adults. [/color]
--
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/e-l/message/9213




Originally posted by Nereid
hitssquad again, quoting Jensen
There is considerable variation within these broad groups, of course, and there are many other derivative or blended groups that could be called races...
...the criteria for all of the classifications are genetically based.
Translation: because there's a lot of variation, there's no clear, consistent means to define a 'human race', and (modern extension) studies of human genetic variation support the conclusion that 'race' is, biologically, for humans, a largely arbitrary choice.
--
The important point is that the average difference between individuals within a group is less than the average difference between groups on the relevant physical characteristics, whether at the molecular level or the gross physical level of measurement. [/color]
--
Intelligence, Race, and Genetics. p117.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/081334008X/?tag=pfamazon01-20




we have a test-based construct
All constructs require tests and statistical analyses of those tests to be revealed. The tests themselves do not constitute bases of constructs.


--
Spearman argued that a collection of items as found in Binet's test "works" only because g enters into any and every mental task... In Spearman's words:

  • This means that, for the purpose of indicating the amount of g possessed by a person, any test will do just as well as any other, provided only that its correlation with g is equally high. With this proviso, the most ridiculous "stunts" will measure the self-same g as will the highest exploits of logic or flights of imagination... And here, it should be noticed, we come at last upon the secret of why all the current tests of "general intelligence" show high correlations with one another, as also with g itself. The reason lies, not in the theories inspiring these tests (which theories have been most confused), nor in any uniformity of construction (for this has often been wildly heterogeneous), but wholly and solely in the above shown "indifference of the indicator." (1927, pp. 197-198)
[/color]--
The g Factor. (p33)
http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=24373874




with no theoretical
--
Factor. The word "factor" has a number of dictionary definitions, but the term as used here has a very restricted, specialized meaning. A factor is a hypothetical variable that "underlies" an observed or measured variable. Thus a factor is also referred to as a latent variable. It is best thought of initially in terms of the mathematical operations by which we identify and measure it.

Although a factor is identifiable and quantifiable, it is not directly observable. It is not a tangible "thing" or an observable event. So we have to be especially careful in talking about factors, lest someone think we believe that we are talking about "things" rather than hypothetical and mathematical constructs. But one can say the very same thing about the many constructs used in the physical sciences (gravitation, magnetism, heat, valence, and potential energy, to name a few). They are all constructs. This does not imply, however, that scientists cannot inquire about the relationship of a clearly defined construct to other phenomena or try to fathom its causal nature. Nor is a construct "unreal" or "chimerical" or less important than some directly observable action or tangible object. Certainly the force of gravity (a hypothetical construct) has more widespread importance than the particular chair I am sitting in at the moment, and is every bit as real. A lot of pointless arguments can be avoided by consistently maintaining a clear distinction between the purely mathematical definition, identification, or measurement of factors, on the one hand, and theories about their causal nature, on the other. [/color]
--
The g Factor. (pp55-56)
http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=24373874




or biological basis
Discrete knowledge of the origins of statistical data is not necessary for that data to be used to produce consistently effective technology. Discrete knowledge of any possible biological origins of g is not necessary for the g construct to be effectively used to produce consistently effective technology.




- correlated with a social construct (with well-known political and social baggage)
Americans self-identify with racial groups with measurable and quantifiable consistency.




being used to draw 'scientific' conclusions
What they are used for is the production of consistently effective technology. Whether or not it reaches some arbitrary person's standard of scientific is irrelevant to the effectiveness of the technology produced.




about the innate, biological capabilities of those social groups.
In a statistical worldview (field-independent; process oriented), things do not have innate characteristics; rather, any characteristics which might be observed or recorded are necessarily situation specific.

The reverse is true of a discrete worldview (field-dependent; outcome oriented).



[Edit: formatting adjusted][/color]

-Chris
 
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  • #81
Originally posted by russ_watters
Allow me to clarify: Discredited means accepted(decided) to be wrong by the scientific community. Just like no good theory can ever be shown to be 100% correct, no bad theory can ever be shown to be 100% wrong. But when the general scientific community comes to such a strong consensus of opinion, you'd be wise to consider it: IQ vs. race research is flawed and the conclusions are wrong.
There are deep flaws in the IQ vs. race research, but people cling to the faulty research anyways. We know for a fact that the studies have been done improperly, or the data has been manipulated, and yet some people want to claim that the research is somehow not flawed. That's where I feel that a person's motives come into question. This is, IMO, worse than the "flat-earth" people, because there is actual research being actively done incorrectly to support racial discrimination.

What it most reminds me of is creationism. Creationists already know what they believe, then they selectively choose data that will back up their beliefs, while ignoring the overwhelming evidence against them. But, creationism and Nazi-style breeding programs have nothing to do with science, even when it is disguised under names like "intelligent design" and "eugenics". It is all about the political and social movement, and any "facts" presented aren't their to convince fellow scientists. All teh work is done as propaganda, to convince gullible laypersons that their pre-existing biases have some sort of scientific basis.

If you wish to question the open-mindedness or bias of the scientific community, consider cold fusion. THOUSANDS of scientists dropped everything to attempt to duplicate an experiment released to a newspaper instead of through the usual scientific process. In retrospect, its a little surprising, nevertheless its a good illustration of how willing the scientific community really is to consider revolutionary ideas. I wish I had saved the quote, but I'm pretty sure it was Adam who said precisely that in the politics forum: it is ok to lie to support your opinion.
Cold fusion is a good case in point for another reason, Russ, one that you or others may not be familiar with. As with The Bell Curve and other propaganda, the cold fusion supporters bypassed peer review and publication in scientific journals, and went straight to the public. Other scientists are usually willing to go over each and every page of a study and point out flaws in the experimental set-up, possible math errors, ways to eliminate researcher bias, etc. When someone avoids peer review, it is very often a sign of trouble.

And, of course, I'm still waiting for someone to answer my question about Pygmies and African brain-size studies...its a good one, and shows the inherent lack of science in racism-supporting science.

*edited to add* Russ, you know it is ok to lie to support your beliefs...it says so in the Bible!
 
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  • #82
Nereid: the lack of a theoretical or biological basis to the g-construct means that it's a dead-end, scientifically - there's nowhere you can go with this, and every time you want to establish another correlation, you are forced (if you're honest) to repeat the entire set of studies in the new context[/color]

SelfAdjoint: This is just not true, and only shows the predjudice of the "hard" scientist against the social sciences generally. *SNIP[/color]

I trust that I have adequately clarified the 'dead-end scientifically' comment?

To clarify 'context'. Nachtwolf, Apollo, Carlos and (to some extent) hitssquad (not to mention Lynn and Vanhanen!) have generalised Jensen (and others') work on the 'race-IQ' connection ('the g-nexus') way beyond the US. Hitssquad has told us that Jensen himself has always been careful not to claim that his work can necessarily be applied beyond the US. This is wise; if the construct has no theoretical or biological underpinning, its use beyond the context in which the correlations were observed can always be challenged.

re predjudice: let's compare Economics with the 'scientific' study of the 'racial basis of IQ/g'?

There are how many thousand studies into the 'self-interested, rational decision makers'? Into 'markets'? Where constructs are used in economics, how often is 'a statistical worldview' regarded as wholly satisfactory? Examples of non-Gaussianity being recognised as grounds for falsifying hypotheses?
 
  • #83
Hitssquad and Nereid have been over much of the content in hitssquad's recent post in this thread, in other Social Sciences threads. Rather than repeat, I'll just address one point.
hitssquad: "Black" does not necessarily mean 100% sub-Saharan negroid African. For whatever reason, or reasons, there seems to be a population in the United States that relatively consistently self-identifies as black. This population has been found to possesses largely African genetic markers mixed with a smaller portion of European genetic markers, both within the population as a whole and within individual members of the population.

and, quoting the Census Bureau:

“White” refers to people having origins in any of the original peoples
of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa...

“Black or African American” refers to people having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa...
Ergo, almost all "blacks" should have put an "X" in both the "White" box and the "Black or African American" box, to be consistent with the CB's definitions, assuming they knew. And a goodly number of "whites" should have also make at least two "X"s

Ergo, "Black" and "White" (as the term are used in the US Census) are not biological races.
hitssquad: As far as a statistical viewpoint is concerned, statistical methods quantify reliability. Statistical methods applied to instances of self-identification of racial categories return quantifications of reliability in those instances.
Maybe, but without better characterisations of the data than hitssquad or Nachtwolf have given so far, assertions of 'reliability' are unsubstantiated. What sorts of characterisation are missing? Examples:
- both mean and median measures of the distributions
- the distributions of the data about the means
- measures of non-Gaussianity, and their significance

To be clear:

If there is a g-genes connection, then the distribution of g among groups* of (US) 'blacks' (and (US) 'whites', but perhaps less pronounced) is highly unlikely to be Gaussian.

If the distribution is non-Gaussian, then none of the g-correlations have the strength quoted in the literature (they'll all be weaker, and many disappear altogether).

*it may be possible to find a group whose IQ/g distribution should be Gaussian, according to some g-nexus idea; however these groups would likely be highly unusual, if hitssquad has been reporting accurately.
 
  • #84
Sabrina, paste, and Plato

Originally posted by Nereid
Ergo, almost all "blacks" should have put an "X" in both the "White" box and the "Black or African American" box, to be consistent with the CB's definitions, assuming they knew.
Identification on the 2000 U.S. Census form as multiracial was voluntary. A respondent of 99.99% european and 0.01% sub-Saharan negroid African stock could have selected only black and been in full compliance with the instructions. The same respondent could have selected only white or mixed white and black and similarly been in full compliance with the instructions. The crucial criteria were limited to only some Afroid stock and self-identification.


--
The question on race asked
respondents to report the race or races
they considered themselves to be. [The
question is] based on self-identification.
...respondents were given the option of
selecting one or more race categories
to indicate their racial identities.[/color]
--
http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-1.pdf


The multi-race option was entirely optional. And the point, from a statistical worldview, is the consistency of the responses, not whatever degree of conformity there might be to discrete Platonic sets. American blacks happen to self-identify with a certain quantifiable amount of consistency. They self-identify however they happen to self-identify, and their racial admixture ratio is whatever it is.



Ergo, "Black" and "White" (as the term are used in the US Census) are not biological races.
A race made from a mixture of races can be a new race, as long as the resulting population inbreeds and breeds true. This has been going on for 10,000 years in the field of animal husbandry, and it apparently happened in the case of a group of 35 some-odd million Americans who -- with some degree of consistency -- self-identify today as blacks.




If there is a g-genes connection, then the distribution of g among groups* of (US) 'blacks' (and (US) 'whites', but perhaps less pronounced) is highly unlikely to be Gaussian.
The two distributions superimposed might look like this. The positive skew noticable in the black distribution might be the result of progressively both greater and rarer caucasian admixtures in the American black gene pool.




-Chris
 
  • #85
Evo

Adam, Osteo Genesis Imperfecta (Brittle Bones) is not a completely inherited disease. While some minor cases are inherited, most severe cases are not. Eugenics would not prevent it.

"In some cases, mostly milder ones, the disorder passes from one generation to another. In most severe cases it comes `out of the blue' with no signs in either parent."

http://www.brittlebone.org/html/overview.htm
I'm quite well informed when it comes to this condition. While not all cases are passed from parent to child, many are. For example, my aunt passed it to her one of her daughters, and her grandchildren. Every member of that family is eagerly anticipating the day when the condition can be removed from the human gene pool. They all have very severe versions of the problem. Before you ask "How could the daughter have kids then?", well, the daughter who produced the grandchildren was not afflicted, she just passed it on.

Apparantly your reasons for eugenics differ greatly from Nachtwolf's, you want to alleviate suffering while he is afraid of some non-existant threat of being overrun by low IQ people and having the world destroyed.
Too late. www.bushorchimp.com

Adam, stop and think about it, where do you draw the line? Ok, let's say no one with a family history of disease that can be passed on can have children.
Who ever said anything about limiting who can have kids? I know I didn't. If something is listed as a hereditary defect or disease or such, wipe it out with a little genetic fiddling. Let everyone have kids. (Actually that is a problem, and we need to shift people off to other worlds or something. But that's another thread.) The only problem then is if people start listing "blonde" or "blue-eyed" as a defect or disease. So I suggest that before such a programme could ever be employed, we would first need a set of standards, carved in stone, which determine what is and isn't a defect or such. Something along the lines of "Conditions linked to genes, and which can be relieved by genetic therapy, which cause pain and a lack of basic human physical capabilities." Also include the necessary "Such alterations can only occur with the knowing consent of the patient, and no law may force them into it."

Eugenics is ridiculous because no two people will ever agree on who the "right" people are that should breed.
I think I've covered that. What other reasons do you have for calling it ridiculous?
 
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  • #86
russ_waters

Allow me to clarify: Discredited means accepted(decided) to be wrong by the scientific community. Just like no good theory can ever be shown to be 100% correct, no bad theory can ever be shown to be 100% wrong. But when the general scientific community comes to such a strong consensus of opinion, you'd be wise to consider it: IQ vs. race research is flawed and the conclusions are wrong.
Well, that's nice, but it's also a Straw Man argument. I also think it's a bit whacky to draw conclusions about populations IQs and ethnicity. However, that's got nothing to do with Eugenics. The IQ-race thing is dodgy as hell, but Eugenics has not in any way been discredited by anyone. Eugenics is not the theory "Let's kill all the Somethingians because they're stupid". That whacky theory is something entirely different, often called "Complete raving nutter ideas", which, unfortunately, dragged the word "Eugenics" into its crapulence about sixty-odd years ago.

In short, yes, the IQ-race thing is dodgy. But that says nothing about Eugenics.
 
  • #87
russ_waters

I wish I had saved the quote, but I'm pretty sure it was Adam who said precisely that in the politics forum: it is ok to lie to support your opinion.
That's awfully close to an ad hominem, russ_waters.
 
  • #88
Heck, if the most popular theory about the rise of Humans is true, and we all came from Africa (or base stock from Africa and maybe some interbreeding with other varieties here and there), then the entire "race" section of this discussion is irrelevant anyway. So we can forget about that and concentrate on more important things, like actual problems, such as the disease I mentioned earlier.
 
  • #89
Originally posted by Adam
Heck, if the most popular theory about the rise of Humans is true, and we all came from Africa (or base stock from Africa and maybe some interbreeding with other varieties here and there), then the entire "race" section of this discussion is irrelevant anyway. So we can forget about that and concentrate on more important things, like actual problems, such as the disease I mentioned earlier.
Adam, why is it that your perception of Eugenics isn't labeled as such in most of the writings I've seen? What you are talking about is something completely different from what we have seen is the more common usage, even if yours is technically correct. I understand you wanting to remove yourself from the racist elements, and I think you have done so pretty well.
 
  • #90


Originally posted by Adam I'm quite well informed when it comes to this condition. While not all cases are passed from parent to child, many are. For example, my aunt passed it to her one of her daughters, and her grandchildren.
That's very sad, I know how tragic this disease is.
Who ever said anything about limiting who can have kids? I know I didn't.
Didn't you say that you were for eugenics? Eugenics is a controlled breeding program for humans. Eugenics is not genetic engineering. See the dictionary definitions below.

Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: eu•gen•ics
Pronunciation: yu-'je-niks
Function: noun plural but singular or plural in construction

: a science that deals with the improvement (as by control of human mating) of hereditary qualities of a race or breed

Dictionary.com
eu•gen•ics P Pronunciation Key (y -j n ks)
n. (used with a sing. verb)

The study of hereditary improvement of the human race by controlled selective breeding

This is why I call eugenics ridiculous.

If something is listed as a hereditary defect or disease or such, wipe it out with a little genetic fiddling.
I am all for genetic engineering, I think the positive results can be very beneficial. Which is why I am all for stem cell research. I am against eugenics, the two are not the same.

So it sounds like you are not for eugenics, you are for genetic engineering to help wipe out disease?
 

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