Why do scientists believe white holes are impossible?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the existence and implications of white holes, contrasting them with black holes. Participants explore theoretical concepts, thermodynamic laws, and the nature of matter within black holes, while questioning the validity of white holes as a counterpart to black holes.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that white holes cannot exist due to violations of the second law of thermodynamics and the nature of black holes, which they describe as one-way gravitational forces that do not allow for the formation of wormholes.
  • Others question the fate of matter that enters black holes, suggesting that it must go somewhere, and propose that it is compressed into a singularity.
  • There are claims that the mass inside black holes is unobservable and its form is unknown, leading to further speculation about the nature of black holes and their effects.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the existence of white holes, comparing their theoretical status to that of unicorns, while others entertain the idea of their existence as a possibility.
  • Entropy in relation to black and white holes is discussed, with participants seeking clarification on how it applies to these phenomena, referencing black hole thermodynamics and the holographic principle.
  • Speculative ideas are raised about the relationship between black holes and the origins of the universe, suggesting that black holes could lead to new universes or be connected to the Big Bang.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the existence of white holes, with no consensus reached. While some firmly reject their existence based on thermodynamic principles, others remain open to the possibility or question the implications of black holes.

Contextual Notes

Discussions include unresolved questions about the nature of matter within black holes, the implications of gravitational forces, and the application of thermodynamic laws to black hole and white hole theories. The conversation reflects varying levels of understanding and acceptance of complex theoretical concepts.

Ultrastar 1
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I have multiple reasons why white holes do not exist. But first let’s go over what a white hole is. It is: the same as a black hole, but in reverse. Instead of sucking up matter and light, it spits it out. This spit out matter and light are said to have been from a black hole, transported to the white hole by a wormhole or inter-space bridge. This is not true because: first, it violates thermodynamic law number 2. Second, the wormhole cannot be produced by a black hole because the gravitational sheer that a black hole produces would be too great for a formation of a wormhole, meaning it would be impossible for it to form because of all the gravity produced by the black hole. Third: we know that it takes a significant amount of gravitational energy or force in order to reshape the fabric of space and form wormholes, but is that amount equal or less than the amount generated by black holes? Not even close. As we know, black holes are sort of shaped like funnels. They suck up matter and light and channel it into the core of their singulaty, where it is pretty much destroyed. Well, because a black hole channels all of its energy forward instead of backward or any other direction, no energy is going past the core to make a wormhole, therefore, not transmitting their matter and light to a white hole, thus rendering white holes nonexistent.
 
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then where does all the material go once it is in the black hole? it has to go somewhere.

also have scientists actually observed material being sucked into a black hole?
 
jamesabc said:
then where does all the material go once it is in the black hole? it has to go somewhere.
Where did all the material the black hole consists of come from? It have to come from somewhere?
 
It comes from the space around the black hole, of course. That part has been observed. I don't see your point.
 
HallsofIvy said:
It comes from the space around the black hole, of course. That part has been observed. I don't see your point.
My points was that his question was as dumb as the question I asked him.

The mass is inside the black hole, in what form or shaper we don't know, but it is in there.
 
Klockan3 said:
My points was that his question was as dumb as the question I asked him.

The mass is inside the black hole, in what form or shaper we don't know, but it is in there.

Who did you ask the question to?
 
jamesabc said:
then where does all the material go once it is in the black hole? it has to go somewhere.

also have scientists actually observed material being sucked into a black hole?

Ok, here is how it works: Some people (and I am one of them) believe that the matter that is scuked up goes into the core of the black black hole, and is then compressed again and again until there is nothing left. This is because the force that compresses the matter is circulating around the core of the black hole (the core is originally the core of a collapsed neutron star.) This circulation causes the above stated compression cylce.
 
Ultrastar 1 said:
They suck up matter and light and channel it into the core of their singulaty, where it is pretty much destroyed.

I like how you used the violation of thermo 2 as evidence that white holes can't exist, but your model of a black hole violates the most basic of all of the laws of physics.
 
Archosaur said:
I like how you used the violation of thermo 2 as evidence that white holes can't exist, but your model of a black hole violates the most basic of all of the laws of physics.

Can you expain the last post a little bit more?
 
  • #10
Archosaur said:
I like how you used the violation of thermo 2 as evidence that white holes can't exist, but your model of a black hole violates the most basic of all of the laws of physics.

Thanks. Can you expain the last post a little bit more?
 
  • #11
Ultrastar 1 said:
matter... is compressed again and again until there is nothing left.

Ultrastar 1 said:
matter and light... is pretty much destroyed.

google "Conservation of Matter"
 
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  • #12
Archosaur said:
google "Conservation of Matter"

oh ok. Thanks. I'm still not convinced that they exist though, you can't ignore my theory... (:
 
  • #13
Ultrastar 1 said:
oh ok. Thanks. I'm still not convinced that they exist though, you can't ignore my theory... (:

Whoa now. Don't get me wrong. I was only trying to suggest a little rethinking of your model of a black hole. I wasn't trying to defend white holes. Heck no. I'm not convinced either.
 
  • #14
Archosaur said:
Whoa now. Don't get me wrong. I was only trying to suggest a little rethinking of your model of a black hole. I wasn't trying to defend white holes. Heck no. I'm not convinced either.

Oh ok. I understood you wrong. Thanks, ill try to rethink the theory.
 
  • #15
Can anyone describe the entropy increase or decrease for black and white holes?
 
  • #16
menergyam said:
Can anyone describe the entropy increase or decrease for black and white holes?

Im still working on that. Entropy is not a subject that I can understand that good. I am close to an answer, but I am still donig research. I will let you know when I have something.
 
  • #18
What do you think about ring (Kerr) singularities>
 
  • #19
P.S. From wiki, I don't understand this part:

If black holes carried no entropy, it would be possible to violate the second law of thermodynamics by throwing mass into the black hole. The only way to satisfy the second law is to admit that the black holes have entropy whose increase more than compensates for the decrease of the entropy carried by the object that was swallowed.

I see that point, you can not get rid of entropy by throwing objects in a black hole.

However, the second law is defined for the isolated SYSTEM and implicitly uses the absolute simultanity of the state of that system which is not consistent with SR/GR and for the Black Hole is not applicable 'as is', at least, without giving additional clarifications.
 
  • #21
Klockan3 said:
Where did all the material the black hole consists of come from? It have to come from somewhere?

It came from the material left over from a large star collapsing unto itself.
 
  • #22
Ultrastar 1 said:
I have multiple reasons why white holes do not exist. But first let’s go over what a white hole is. It is: the same as a black hole, but in reverse.
You are offering a solution for which there is no problem. White holes don't exist for the same reason unicorns don't exist.


But as long as you're looking for reasons, here's the big one: gravity is a one-way force. There is no counterpart to it.
 
  • #23
DaveC426913 said:
You are offering a solution for which there is no problem. White holes don't exist for the same reason unicorns don't exist.


But as long as you're looking for reasons, here's the big one: gravity is a one-way force. There is no counterpart to it.

What about dark matter?
 
  • #24
No no no no no no no no
 
  • #25
Mr. Paradox said:
What about dark matter?
What about it?
 
  • #26
It would bo cool to see if they do exist. you are right theoreticaly they do not. but where do the black holes go? maybe a new universe. maybe that is what we call the big bang. new material from another universe.
 
  • #27
mikeasabsa said:
It would bo cool to see if they do exist. you are right theoreticaly they do not. but where do the black holes go? maybe a new universe. maybe that is what we call the big bang. new material from another universe.
(Careful. Overly-speculative.)

One of things that suggests the matter does not go anywhere is that its gravitational effects are still felt just as if it's clumped up in the centre of the BH. Whatever happens to the matter down there, it doesn't seem to have any detrimental effects on the matter's gravity.
 
  • #28
The main argument that white holes exist seems to come from the Time part of CPT symmetry. This could be a flawed argument. Additionally, There is plenty of observational evidence that leads to the conclusion that black holes exist. If white holes did exist they would be much easier to detect than black holes, yet we have no observational evidence for their existence whatsoever.
 
  • #29
The lack of obserational evidence for white holes is fairly compelling to me. One could argue for gamma bursters as evidence, but, i find that argument weak.
 
  • #30
If I read Hawking's original papers, 30 years ago, he wrote there that for all purpose white holes would be indistinguishable from black holes, at least for an outside observer. The rate of matter "evaporation" from a white all is identical to the rate of radiation from a black hole. I stress again, in the original papers of Hawking 30 years ago, I don't know about now. So from this point of view, there is no more or no less observational evidence for white or black holes !
 

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