Why Does Hamilton's Function Equal Zero in Relativistic Lagrangian?

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The discussion centers on the relationship between the Hamiltonian and the Lagrangian in relativistic mechanics, specifically why Hamilton's function equals zero when derived from the Lagrangian L=-mc√(dot xμ dot xμ). Participants debate the implications of using proper time versus coordinate time in the formulation, with some asserting that the Hamiltonian should not be zero. The conversation references Goldstein's classical mechanics for clarification, highlighting that the Lagrangian's invariance under reparametrizations leads to the Hamiltonian being identically zero. Misunderstandings about the proper interpretation of derivatives and the correct form of the Lagrangian are also addressed. Ultimately, the discussion emphasizes the importance of a covariant formulation in understanding these relationships in relativistic physics.
  • #31
Unfortunately, I find that I've lent my copy of Lanczos to someone and don't have another to hand. I could walk to the library to get one but, well, it's bloody freezing here at the moment. As a result, I'll try to quote the general line of thinking from memory and get back to you later with some references.

Let me begin by looking at a simpler case than the one the OP asked about. Suppose that we have a non-relativistic particle of mass m which moves in a potential V(x^i,t). The canonical action for this theory is

<br /> S[x^i(t),p_i(t)]<br /> = \int dt\, \left( p_i\frac{dx^i}{dt} - H(x^i,p_i,t) \right),<br />

where p_i is the momentum conjugate to x^i. The Hamiltonian is

<br /> H = \frac{p_ip^i}{2m} + V(x^i,t).<br />

Note that this form of the Hamiltonian makes the implicit assumption that we are dealing with Newtonian theory because of the form of the inner product p_ip^i=\delta^{ij}p_ip_j.

Now suppose that we introduce a parametrization of the path in phase space. Let me introduce some arbitrary parametrization of this path, and label it by \tau. Moreover, suppose that we look at a larger phase space given by

<br /> x^\alpha = (t,x^i),\,\,<br /> x^\alpha = x^\alpha(\tau),\,\,<br /> p_\alpha = p_\alpha(\tau).<br />

(By the way, my memory of Lanczos is that this is covered within the context of a discussion of Jacobi's principle and is explained in detail there.) We can then re-express the canonical action as

<br /> S[x^\alpha(\tau),p_\alpha(\tau)]<br /> = \int d\tau\, (p_i\dot{x}^i - H\dot{t}),<br />

where dots denote differentiation with respect to the parameter \tau. If one varies with respect to x^i(\tau) and p_i(\tau), one obtains the standard Hamiltonian equations of motion, while if one varies with respect to t(\tau) one obtains what (I believe) is widely called the "energy balance equation"

<br /> \dot{H} = \dot{t}\frac{\partial H}{\partial t}.<br />

However, we have still to vary with respect to p_0(\tau), the momentum conjugate to t(\tau). It's easy to do this: we find that p_0 = -H and since H=H(x^\alpha,p_\alpha) we can vary p_0 independently in the action. Thus, one obtains the constraint equation

<br /> \mathcal{H} = p_0 + H(x^\alpha,p_\alpha) = 0.<br />

So far, so bog standard. If we want to be able to vary all of the (x^\alpha,p_\alpha) freely, we just follow Dirac's method and add the constraint into the action together with a Lagrange multiplier, N. We find that

<br /> S[x^\alpha(\tau),p_\alpha(\tau);N(\tau)]<br /> = \int d\tau\, (p_\alpha\dot{x}^\alpha - N\mathcal{H}).<br />

If we vary N we obtain the constraint \mathcal{H}=0 again. If we vary p_0 we get

<br /> N = \frac{d(\textrm{absolute &quot;Newtonian&quot; time})}{d(\textrm{label time})}<br /> = \dot{t},<br />

an expression which assigns physical meaning to the Lagrange multiplier. Again, such occurrences are common all over physics (think about the status of the Lagrange multipliers in general relativity for example).

We can also recover the ordinary Hamiltonian equations of motion and an energy balance equation from the remaining variations. The form of the action is also seen to be invariant under arbitrary reparametrizations of the form

<br /> \tau\to \tau&#039;(t)<br />

whenever

<br /> N \to N&#039; = N\frac{d\tau}{d\tau&#039;}<br />

and the (x^\alpha,p_\alpha) are invariant under this reparametrization. Then, and this is the central point, the Hamiltonian for a non-relativistic point particle of mass m can be taken as N\mathcal{H}. What's more, on a classical solution one has \mathcal{H}=0, the claim I made earlier in the thread.

All of this depends crucially on the theory being invariant under such (essentially arbitrary) reparametrizations. For the fifth or sixth time in this thread let me repeat it: this is, or at least should be, emphasised ad nauseum in a course on analytical mechanics. To me, it's right up there with the Hamilton-Jacobi equation in importance.

So far I've dealt only with the non-relativistic case. To see how the relativistic case works out, let's take the usual Lagrangian:

<br /> L = -m\sqrt{1-\dot{x}_i\dot{x}^i}.<br />

One can go through essentially the same procedure as in the non-relativistic case, recovering the idea that the Hamiltonian vanishes on-shell. The proof is left as an exercise for anyone who's interested.

Finally, in case you're not convinced of the ubiquity of this method, let me note that it pops up in loads of places. It happens, as a well known example, in bosonic string theory, where heavy use is made of world sheet reparametrization invariance in order to write the Hamiltonian as a quantity which vanishes on shell. Similarly, (vacuum) general relativity has an identically vanishing Hamiltonian of the form

<br /> H = \int d^3x\, (N\mathcal{H} + N^i\mathcal{H}_i) = 0.<br />

where (N,N^i) are the lapse function and shift vector, respectively, and \mathcal{H},\mathcal{H}^i are the Hamiltonian and momentum constraints, respectively.
 
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  • #32
reilly said:
My first look at Pete's web page on Lagrangians and Hamiltonians showed me a correct and standard argument. My memory being not so good anymore, I looked at my lecture notes from when I taught this stuff, I looked at Landau and Lifshetz and Panofsky and Phillips, all of whom seem to give results identical to Pete's. If there is a problem here, lets' see chapter and verse.
Thanks Reilly.

That was a page where I was working in a non-covariant form. The page where I did this in a covariant form was damaged. I fixed it yesterday. It is located here

http://www.geocities.com/physics_world/em/relativistic_charged_particle.htm

This is the covariant approach. The Hamiltonian derived using the covariant approach is zero whereas the non-covariant approach yields a non-zero Hamiltonian whose value is zero for a free particle and equals the energy.

As far as Goldstein's text quoted above - been there, done that. What's the problem?

Pete
 
  • #33
pmb_phy said:
Thanks Reilly.

That was a page where I was working in a non-covariant form. The page where I did this in a covariant form was damaged. I fixed it yesterday. It is located here

http://www.geocities.com/physics_world/em/relativistic_charged_particle.htm

This is the covariant approach. The Hamiltonian derived using the covariant approach is zero whereas the non-covariant approach yields a non-zero Hamiltonian whose value is zero for a free particle and equals the energy.

As far as Goldstein's text quoted above - been there, done that. What's the problem?

Pete
I didn't realize that I have that book Jackson cited, i.e. the one by Barut. I scanned the pages relavent to this discussion and placed them in a pdf file. That file is located at

http://www.geocities.com/physics_world/Barut.pdf

It will be removed next week since its a temporary file and I'm cramped for space on my website.

Best regards

Pete
 
  • #34
shoehorn -- Better get yourself to the library. See Chap. VII, Canonical Transformations, of Lanczos. In my earlier post I quoted Eq. 74.12 and 74.13 -- I left out EQ.72.17; it gives a somewhat more general xform for the Hamiltonian. A zero Hamiltonian is an artifact of certain canonical transformations.

The situation is somewhat similar to the differences between Schrodinger, Interaction, and Heisenberg pictures in QM. And, you did not answer my questions about time displacements, and non-relativistic limits.
Regards,
Reilly Atkinson

My copy of Lanczos was published in 1957, so chapter and equation numbers might be changed
 
  • #35
Let's see if we can come to agreement on a few basic things, which I think should be obvious, but may have gotten lost in the smoke, fireworks, and drama.

1) The OP claimed that

L=-mc\sqrt{(\dot x^\mu \dot x_\mu)}

where the dot notes a derivative with respect to proper time, is a Lagrangian.

Goldstein also agrees that this is a Lagrangian (of a free particle, 7-162).

Do you (reilly) agree that this is a relativistic Lagrangian of a free particle? We note in passing that this is not a unique Lagrangian, I suppose we'd better confirm that you agree with that observation, too.

2) The OP claimed that the Hamiltonian corresponding to the above Lagrangian is zero. To work this out formally, we do need to indicate what variables L is a function of, which the OP did not do, but this is a common omission.

It seems logical to assume that:

L(\tau,x^i,\dot{x^i})

and also that x_i = g_{ij} x^i where g_{ij} is the space-time metric.

Do you agree that the Hamiltonian corresponding to the above Lagrangian is zero?

Assuming you agree with points 1) and 2), what is your answer as to why the Hamiltonian is zero?
 
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  • #36
pervect said:
It seems logical to assume that:

L(\tau,x^i,\dot{x^i})
I disagree. The Lagrangian that you posted is not an explicit function of proper time. Only explicit variables are listed in the Lagrangians variable set. Porper time is implicit in this case. Therefore the Lagrangian is only a function of 4-velocity.
Do you agree that the Hamiltonian corresponding to the above Lagrangian is zero?
Because its a covariant representation and as such the identification of the Hamiltonian as energy is lost. However, that the Hamiltonian is zero makes it useless. I suppose that's why Jackson said it was a problem.

Pete
 
  • #37
fikus said:
How do we explain the fact that if we want to get Hamilton's equations out of Lagrangian:
L=-mc\sqrt{(\dot x^\mu \dot x_\mu)},
where dot is noting derivative in proper time, we get that Hamilton's function equals zero ?


This is a general feafure of the COVARIANT Hamiltonian formulation of a theory. By taking the time PARAMETER as an EXTRA DYMANICAL VARIABLE, we can transform any theory into the covariant form in which the evolution parameter is arbitrary. As I will show you bellow, the introduction of an arbitrary time into Hamiltonian theory implies the existence of one 1st class constraint and a vanishing Hamiltonian. So, if the action (like yours) is "already covariant", i.e., it treats time as coordinate from the very begining, then the Hamiltonian vanishes identically as a result of parametrization-invariance.
To explain the problem of covariance, let us consider the very simple dynamical system of free non-relativistic particle

L(t) = \frac{1}{2} ( \frac{dx}{dt})^{2}

Notice that t is an evolution parameter, i.e., it is not a dynamical variable! well, peopel like myself do not like this fact, so we introduce a new evolution parameter (new time) \delta as a monotonic function of t, and take t \equiv x_{0} as an extra coordinate, i.e., we consider the new Lagrangian

L( \delta ) = \frac{1}{2} \frac{(dx/d \delta)^{2}}{dx_{0} /d \delta} \equiv \frac{1}{2} \frac{\dot{x}^{2}}{\dot{x}_{0}}

as a function of the coordinates (x_{0},x) and time \delta, so that

\int L(t) \ dt = \int L( \delta ) \ d \delta

By introducing the corresponding momenta

<br /> P^{0} = \frac{ \partial L( \delta)}{ \partial \dot{x}_{0}} = - (1/2) ( \dot{x} / \dot{x}_{0})^{2}<br />

<br /> P = \frac{ \partial L( \delta)}{ \partial \dot{x}} = \dot{x} / \dot{x}_{0}<br />

we find that the canonical Hamiltonian vanishes identically;

H_{c} \equiv \dot{x}_{0} P^{0} + \dot{x} P - L( \delta) = 0

This means that there exists at least one 1st class primary constraint. Indeed, we do have it;

\phi = P_{0} + \frac{1}{2} P^{2} \approx 0

so, the total Hamiltonian is of the form

H_{T} = f \phi
where f is an arbitrary multiplier, and the equations of motion are

<br /> \dot{x}_{0} = \{x_{0}, \phi \} f = f, \ \ \dot{P}_{0} = 0<br />
<br /> \dot{x} = \{x, \phi \} f = P f, \ \ \dot{P} = 0<br />

Notice that this system of equation is form invariant (covariant) under the arbitrary infinitesimal transformations

x_{0} \rightarrow x_{0} + \epsilon , \ \ P^{0} \rightarrow P^{0}
x \rightarrow x + \epsilon P , \ \ P \rightarrow P

To go back to time t, we choose the "gauge" x_{0} - \delta \approx 0. In this gauge the equations take the standard form

f = 1 , \ \ \dot{x} = P

In short; parametrization-invariance ( which shows up because of the way in which we formulate the action) leads to off-shell mathematical identities, i.e., the identities hold wether or not the action is extremized. It is this fact that makes the identity H = 0 different from the conserved quantity (1/2)P^{2} which holds only on-shell.


regards

sam
 
  • #38
shoehorn said:
The Lagrangian is invariant under reparametrizations along the world line which preserve the parameter values at the endpoints.. A simple consequence of this is that the Hamiltonian is identically zero.

The quote above is the most accurate statement in this thread! Well done.

For the sake of completeness, I will prove the following general theorem:

If the action

S[q] = \int_{1}^{2} L(q, \dot{q},t) \ dt

is invariant under the infinitesimal transformation

t \rightarrow t + \epsilon (t)

with \epsilon = 0 at the endpoints, but arbitrary othewise, then the Hamiltonian vanishes identically.

Proof:

Given a parametrized state q(t), \dot{q}(t) , we can define a new parametrized state

\bar{q}(t) = q( t + \epsilon ) \approx q + \dot{q} \epsilon

\frac{d}{dt} \bar{q}(t) = \dot{q} + \frac{d}{dt}( \dot{q} \epsilon)

Thus, to the 1st order in \epsilon , we have

S[ \bar{q}] - S[q] = \int_{1}^{2} \left[ \frac{dL}{dt} \epsilon + ( \dot{q} \frac{ \partial{L}}{ \partial \dot{q}}) \frac{d \epsilon}{dt} \right] dt

or
0 = [ \epsilon L ]_{1}^{2} + \int_{1}^{2} \left[ \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{q}} \dot{q} - L \right] \frac{d \epsilon}{dt} \ dt

The 1st term vanishes because \epsilon = 0 at the endpoints. And , for arbitrary d \epsilon /dt, parametrization-invariance implies

H \equiv \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{q}} \dot{q} - L = 0

Notice that we did not assume that the action is extremal or that q(t) satisfies the E-L equation. Therefore, the above identity holds off-shell, i.e., H = 0 holds for any state (trajectory).


regards

sam
 
  • #39
shoehorn said:
...that he's using the standard, extremely well-known method of achieving a vanishing Hamiltonian.
"..extremely well-known method"? Hardly. Unless you're referring to calculating H = 0 when the Lagrangian used is covariant. Is that what you mean??
Lanczos is (or at least should be) standard reading. For the nth time: reparametrization invariance, ...
We'd appreciate it if you'd directly respond to Reilly's question to you regarding this "reparameterization" that you've mentioned here. I.e. Reilly asked you Also, what parameters do you consider in your reparametrization?
Pick your favourite monotonically increasing parametrization along the configuration space path; it'll be just as good as mine. If you so wish, adjoin the time to the configuration space also by considering the time as a function of this parameter. Repeat ad nauseum.
What are you claiming that this reparameterization will accomplish??

Pete
 
  • #40
pervect said:
It's already been pointed out that your webpage disagrees with Goldstein.
Please stop ignoring my question regarding this bogus claim of yours. I asked you to prove that my web page disagrees with Goldstein. You claim it does but you provide no proof. Let me refresh your memory. I posted the URL - http://www.geocities.com/physics_world/sr/relativistic_energy.htm

The (non-covariant) Lagrangian is in Eq. (15) in my web page. It is the exact same Lagrangian found in Classical Mechanics - 2nd Ed., Goldstein, page 322, Eq. (7.141). So with this clarification, on what basis do you claim my web page disagrees with Goldstein? Especially it was from Goldstein and Jackson from which I took this Lagrangian.

I'll tell you what your mistake is - You erroneously thought I was referring to the covariant Lagrangian. Well you were wrong. I later saw that it was the covariant Lagrangian that the OP was thinking about and the covariant equations produce a zero Hamiltonian and for which the Hamiltonian looses its meaning as the energy of the particle. I even later posted my other web page, which I had to fix first, which speaks about both Lagrangians and both the non-covariant and the covariant equations. That page is here

http://www.geocities.com/physics_world/em/relativistic_charged_particle.htm

As you can see the non-covariant Lagrangian is in Eq. (1) and the non-covariant Lagrange equations are in Eq. (3) while the covariant Lagrangian is located in Eq. (33) and the covariant Lagrange equations are in Eq. (34).

So I'll keep asking for your proof that my web page is wrong or until you admit you made a mistake. The honest humble person would admit his mistake and get on with their life. Give it a try and see how good it feels.

Pete
 
  • #41
pmb_phy said:
Please stop ignoring my question regarding this bogus claim of yours.

I find your personal style of argumentation to be tedious, shrill, overly argumentative, and overly demanding. Especially since I've already quoted at legnth from a standard textbook which disagrees with you.

Sorry if you don't happen to have that particular textbook, I don't happen to have Lancos.

However, I am still interested in a response by reilly, though I will not be so impolite as to demand one.
 
  • #42
pervect said:
Especially since I've already quoted at legnth from a standard textbook which disagrees with you.
A totallybogus claim and excactly contradictory to the facts which are plain as day. I guess that's all that can be expected from you. You appear to be too arrogant to admit your error. At least Reilly can see clearly.

The problem with this forum is that you can't be blocked.

Oh. One more thing. Nobody cares about your opinion of me. In fact it was expected.
 
  • #43
This thread ends NOW.

Zz.
 

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