News Why Does Israel Target Civilian Water Infrastructure?

[Proton Soup]

And complete the ethnic cleansing started 60 years ago by the Zionists? Why is that a good idea?

aren't they all the same ethnicity, semites?

 

[mheslep]

...Granted, I suppose such facts are irrelevant if you respect such attempts to subvert democracy.

Fatah was the duly elected democratic government at the time and was deserving of foreign support. Your argument could have been used in support of the 19th century southern Confederate States of America government, which was also democratically elected.

 

[kyleb]

That's a real problem for me too, kyleb. There are still survivors of the Holocaust living in Israel. How must they feel to see...

Most Israelis, and Americans, Holocaust survivors or otherwise, see little of what Israel is doing in the occupied territories. Even visiting the territories doesn't reveal much unless one goes looking for it, as Israeli settlements and bypass roads are designed to keep Palestinians out of view. What is http://www.btselem.org/Download/Separation_Barrier_Map_Eng.pdf" which exposes in great detail the lengths which have been undertaken to hide the nature of this conquest though urban planning.

Also on the issue of Holocaust survivors in Israel, http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/06/world/middleeast/06mideast.html" .

Israel's willingness to use cluster munitions and white-phosphorus shells in heavily-populated civilian areas speaks of a callous disregard for the lives of Arabs.

That it does, and that is just the http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/5862" .

And yeah, Obama's appointment of Mitchel while a promising is a long way from wrapping this mess up. Also, Cohen would certainly be a massive improvement over Gates.

Here's what the descendant of one of them who happens to be a former British gov't senior minister thinks, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/manchester/7834487.stm

And a few thousand words worth of pictures from another son of Holocaust survivors:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=2510

it is the fault of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria that these people are in this predicament. so they should resettle them in their own countries.

None of those nations asked for Palestinians to have their homeland colonized out from under them by overwhelming military force. How have you pushed the onus to on them?

 

[Proton Soup]

None of those nations asked for Palestinians to have their homeland colonized out from under them by overwhelming military force. How have you pushed the onus to on them?

yeah, and the israelis had the land before them.

 

[sirchasm]

Note the myth: "the Israelis had the land", Israelis are European Jews mostly, the only land they've "had" for about 2000 years has been any they've purchased legally from European nations (and America).

Any country that relies on outside military support, generally develops a fascist ideology.
Since they have no concerns with achieving dominance, it's delivered to them in arms shipments and large loans.

Most countries have to balance the economic books - if Israel had to pay for its US military assets, it would be bankrupt economically. Instead it can afford to be bankrupt morally, this is no problem when you have overwhelming military strength, just look at Hitler and the Nazis.

 

[Proton Soup]

Any country that relies on outside military support, generally develops a fascist ideology.
Since they have no concerns with achieving dominance, it's delivered to them in arms shipments and large loans.

Most countries have to balance the economic books - if Israel had to pay for its US military assets, it would be bankrupt economically. Instead it can afford to be bankrupt morally, this is no problem when you have overwhelming military strength, just look at Hitler and the Nazis.

do you know that we (USA) supply arms to both Egypt and Saudia Arabia?

 

[mheslep]

Any country that relies on outside military support, generally develops a fascist ideology.

Pretty much the entire developed Western world plus much of Asia (Japan, S. Korea) depends on some portion of US military support, in particular US air and satellite support.

 

[Art]

yeah, and the israelis had the land before them.

Now you're just being silly. The Celts had Great Britain once so can they expect US military aid to kick the English out and retake their homeland?

 

[Art]

Fatah was the duly elected democratic government at the time and was deserving of foreign support. Your argument could have been used in support of the 19th century southern Confederate States of America government, which was also democratically elected.

your timing is a little off. Hamas won the election in 2006 but Fatah despite losing refused to relinquish power. It was only after their electoral defeat that the US rushed military aid to Fatah to help them cling to power by force of arms.

 

[sirchasm]

Pretty much the entire developed Western world plus much of Asia (Japan, S. Korea) depends on some portion of US military support, in particular US air and satellite support.

You're exposing US hegemony, but aside from that issue, Israel is just another beneficiary?
How many beneficiaries have 5bn worth of arms delivered annually, like Israel gets?
Israel doesn't get special treatment? The US delivers the same amount to, say Egypt, or Saudi Arabia?

"Here you are, and have a nice war"...?
Or "...you want nukes to go? No problemo!"

 

[Proton Soup]

Now you're just being silly. The Celts had Great Britain once so can they expect US military aid to kick the English out and retake their homeland?

i think it was Mark Twain that said there is not one bit of land on Earth that hasn't been stolen from one man by another. maybe we should just let them settle this. whoever is strong enough to hang onto the land owns it.

 

[mheslep]

your timing is a little off. Hamas won the election in 2006 but Fatah despite losing refused to relinquish power. It was only after their electoral defeat that the US rushed military aid to Fatah to help them cling to power by force of arms.

Alright, Hamas won the legislative council election 2006 and it appears Haniya formed a new government, but Abbas was still legally serving his term as President.

 

[mheslep]

You're exposing US hegemony, but aside from that issue, Israel is just another beneficiary?

It was more intended to point out the failure of other wealthy nations to provide adequately for their own defense, which is esp. notable in various NATO and UN operations.

How many beneficiaries have 5bn worth of arms delivered annually, like Israel gets?

$2.4B FY2008, and yeah that's still too much IMO.

 

[ThomasT]

i think it was Mark Twain that said there is not one bit of land on Earth that hasn't been stolen from one man by another.

That doesn't make it the right thing to do. The OP asks, what is wrong with Israel?. The answer is that it exists on stolen land, and its policies oppress the people whose land was stolen.

That is the status quo, and it's continuation is ensured by the US government via massive financial and military support for Israel, and by the US people via ignorance of and disinterest in the Israel-Palestine problem.

 

[kyleb]

i think it was Mark Twain that said there is not one bit of land on Earth that hasn't been stolen from one man by another.

Mark Twain also said Palestine was basically empty, while Ottoman census records show hundreds of thousands of of people living there in villages and towns all over it. Furthermore. of those hundreds of thousands of people, a many were chased out by Jewish militants and terrorist groups prior to Israelis declaration of statehood.

Also note that the people we now call "Arabs" today are descendants of the Semitic people who have lived in the region along side Jews since pre-Biblical times. Some of their ancestors were Jews whose descendants later converted to Christianity and/or Islam in more recent history. This is clear not only by historical record, but though DNA studies of Palestinians, such as the one reported here:

http://bric.postech.ac.kr/science/97now/00_10now/001030a.html

So your "Israelis had the land before them" argument is absurd.

maybe we should just let them settle this. whoever is strong enough to hang onto the land owns it.

Of course that of callous disregard for any sense of justice is what has been perpetuating though this conflict for decades, and which rightfully earns us the title of the Great Satan. Not that the vast majority of our population even understand we are perpetuating such might makes right mentality, but we let people such as yourself continue such conquest all the same. What drives you to support such malevolence?

Alright, Hamas won the legislative council election 2006 and it appears Haniya formed a new government, but Abbas was still legally serving his term as President.

There is no "but" here. Haniya became Prime Minster as head of the Hamas ticket, and Hamas offered to form a unity government with Fatah, as being new to governing Hamas needed all the help they could get. However, US pressure on Abbas and financial along tactical support convinced him to engage in a coup attempt against Hamas instead. Granted, we only backed Fatah enough to try and fail, while we could have easily backed them enough to win had that been our goal. On the contrary, the obvious goal was to further divide and conquer Palestinians, just as was the goal when Israel originally funded Hamas decades ago to undermine Fatah. Also note that Israel's support for Hamas was in large part under the direction of Benjamin Netanyahu, who is now again becoming Israel's Prime Minster.

So, mission accomplished! rah, rah! Death to Palestine! Eh?

Oh that's right, we don't talk about wiping Palestine off the map, we just do it while constantly scrambling for excuses to point the finger at everyone but ourselves.

 

[Proton Soup]

That doesn't make it the right thing to do. The OP asks, what is wrong with Israel?. The answer is that it exists on stolen land, and its policies oppress the people whose land was stolen.

That is the status quo, and it's continuation is ensured by the US government via massive financial and military support for Israel, and by the US people via ignorance of and disinterest in the Israel-Palestine problem.

australia exists on stolen land. the United States exists on stolen land. Canada exists on stolen land. much of china exists on stolen land. brazil exists on stolen land. etc. none of it is going to be given back.

 

[Proton Soup]

Of course that of callous disregard for any sense of justice is what has been perpetuating though this conflict for decades, and which rightfully earns us the title of the Great Satan. Not that the vast majority of our population even understand we are perpetuating such might makes right mentality, but we let people such as yourself continue such conquest all the same. What drives you to support such malevolence?

the Great Satan? so are you Muslim?

 

[turbo]

i think it was Mark Twain that said there is not one bit of land on Earth that hasn't been stolen from one man by another. maybe we should just let them settle this. whoever is strong enough to hang onto the land owns it.

Perhaps if the US hadn't been pumping billions of dollars every year into supporting Israel, that might be a fair solution.

 

[kyleb]

australia exists on stolen land. the United States exists on stolen land. Canada exists on stolen land. much of china exists on stolen land. brazil exists on stolen land. etc. none of it is going to be given back.

Only because we cleared out the vast majority of the existing population before acknowledging the civil rights of those few who remain. Is that what you hope to see Israel eventually achieve too?

the Great Satan?

It is a fitting term to describe diabolical nature of the might makes right mentality you cheer on, even in the strictly secular sense.

so are you Muslim?

I am an agnostic theist who was raised among Christians and Jews, and hence never found cause to adhere one religion over the other, but rather gained the understanding that differences among religions are only matters of perspective. Not that my faith has any bearing on the facts I have presented here. What about yours, are you compelled to dismiss me as an enemy out of some belief that Israel's conquest over Palestine will bring Divine Salvation? If so, I recommend looking deeper into the context of whatever passages you cite.

 

[Proton Soup]

It is a fitting term to describe diabolical nature of the might makes right mentality you cheer on, even in the strictly secular sense.

i wouldn't say I'm so much cheering them on as believing they should have their place. all i see from the muslims is that they want the jews dead, so it's very difficult for me to sympathize with them. the jews are occupying a small speck of land that is their traditional homeland, while their muslim brothers occupy the vast majority of land in the region. i don't see what's unfair about it, and i see the muslims as a thousand times more aggressive. but i wasn't raised with jews, so maybe you've developed some negative feelings towards them that I'm not privy to.

 

[kyleb]

You are cheering on Israel as it keeps millions of Palestinians expressed though overwhelming military force, and colonizing their homeland out from under them while killing off anyone who gets in their way. Those Palestinians being mostly Muslims, but many largely secular and some Christians as well, and again being largely descended from Jews and other Semitic people who inhabited the region since pre-Biblical times, and most of whom have no interest in killing anyone. Those Israelis being mostly simply ethnically Jewish, only some religiously so though most culturally, and Arabs who have taken the side of the conquers, and many Jews and Arabs who want no part in this madness but are being taken along for the ride, some of whom knowingly so and who have long been speaking out against this ongoing injustice the same as I do.

Yet, you first try to absurdly try to dismiss me as a Muslim, and now as Judophobic, while ignoring my questions and the facts I present, all to reduce this whole conflict down to "the Jews" and "the Muslims" and excuse the conquers while condemning their victims. Considering your compulsion to such stereotyping and apparent disinterest in bringing a just resolution to this conflict, I can't help but wonder if you are of the same bigoted ilk which chanted "Jews go back to Palestine" along with the Nazis of Europe.

 

[mheslep]

...There is no "but" here. Haniya became Prime Minster as head of the Hamas ticket, and Hamas offered to form a unity government with Fatah, as being new to governing Hamas needed all the help they could get. However, US pressure on Abbas and financial along tactical support convinced him to engage in a coup attempt against Hamas instead. Granted, we only backed Fatah enough to try and fail, while we could have easily backed them enough to win had that been our goal. On the contrary, the obvious goal was to further divide and conquer Palestinians, just as was the goal when Israel originally funded Hamas decades ago to undermine Fatah. Also note that Israel's support for Hamas was in large part under the direction of Benjamin Netanyahu, who is now again becoming Israel's Prime Minster.

My statement was correct.

 

[Proton Soup]

kyleb, you are the one who came out swinging with the emotional warfare, asking how i can support malevolence, etc. if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. or stay and rant, it's no skin off my nose.

 

[kyleb]

My statement was correct.

Loosely anyway. Are you attempting to insinuate that any of my response was incorrect, or just actively ignoring those facts?

kyleb, you are the one who came out swinging with the emotional warfare...

I responded to your suggestion that "whoever is strong enough to hang onto the land owns it." If you don't care to defend such malevolence then so be it, but that doesn't give you any right to cast absurd accusations against me.

 

[Werg22]

australia exists on stolen land. the United States exists on stolen land. Canada exists on stolen land. much of china exists on stolen land. brazil exists on stolen land. etc. none of it is going to be given back.

Largely because there is no one to give those lands back to. The former inhabitants have for the most part been eradicated. This is not the case with the Palestinians as they are even larger in number now than they were prior to the establishment of Israel.

i wouldn't say I'm so much cheering them on as believing they should have their place. all i see from the muslims is that they want the jews dead, so it's very difficult for me to sympathize with them. the jews are occupying a small speck of land that is their traditional homeland, while their muslim brothers occupy the vast majority of land in the region. i don't see what's unfair about it, and i see the muslims as a thousand times more aggressive. but i wasn't raised with jews, so maybe you've developed some negative feelings towards them that I'm not privy to.

So you're advocating assignment of land as a function of religion? Because Palestinians are largely (but not entirely, mind you) Muslim they have no claim to some land because there is already ample of Muslim one? You seem to reduce this entire affair to a question of Muslim/Jewish tensions. The injustice doesn't lie there. The injustice is that the Palestinians, a people, have been robbed of land they used to live on. If the Palestinians relinquish the right to a land, they cease to exist as a people. The Israeli authority has made it clear that it has no interest in giving them adequate land (adequate, to exclude Camp David). It's this that the Palestinians are entitled to, and need to, keep fighting for (not necessarily violently).

Religious frictions are present. But they are far more a product of the conflict than a cause, and it is false to claim that Muslims are institutionally inclined to antisemitism; as a matter of fact many Jews fled to Muslim-ruled North Africa to escape prosecution in Spain, as many as 200 000, living along side Muslims, were found in present-day Morocco alone prior to 1948.

 

[ThomasT]

i wouldn't say I'm so much cheering them on as believing they should have their place. all i see from the muslims is that they want the jews dead, so it's very difficult for me to sympathize with them. the jews are occupying a small speck of land that is their traditional homeland, while their muslim brothers occupy the vast majority of land in the region. i don't see what's unfair about it, and i see the muslims as a thousand times more aggressive.

I think the Israelis should have a place of their own also. As well as the displaced Palestinians.

There is the argument that the majority of Palestinians weren't so much forced out of their homes by Zionists as that they left at the behest of the leaders of the surrounding Arab states in order to avoid the imminent conflict between Israel and the surrounding Arab states over the establishment of the Jewish state in the former British Mandate Palestine.

As I currently understand it, Mandate Palestine had been partitioned by the UN into at least two sovereign and autonomous states -- one, Israel, for the influx of Jewish refugess, and one, Palestine, for the indigenous Palestinian people.

The Arab leaders rejected the partitioning. I haven't learned why yet.

Accompanying this argument is the question of why the Palestinian refugees can't simply be absorbed and taken care of by the surrounding Arab states, much as Israel was a haven for Jewish refugees from all over the world.

There is the contention that this isn't done because the Arab leaders have used the Palestinian refugees as political pawns in their effort to end the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. I don't have any opinion about the truth of this yet either.

What is certain is that thousands of Palestinians were unable to resume their lives in the homes they left when they attempted to return and do that. It's sort of like if you went on vacation for some time and then came back to find your home had been taken in your absence. Israel's claim is that these people, the displaced Palestinians, have no legal right to their former homes.

To simply say that stuff happens and leave it at that isn't good enough if the principles that we Americans are supposed to stand for are to have any real meaning.

From what I've learned so far, the establishment of the Jewish state of Israel was viewed by the indigenous Arab people as an invasion. So that's one question that I have. Was it or wasn't it an invasion? It's not a matter of legality. The Nazi treatment of the Jews was legal under German law. It's a matter of right and wrong. Were the Arab states justified in opposing the partitioning of Mandate Palestine and the establishment of the Jewish state of Israel? Could there have been another haven established for Jewish refugees that didn't entail the creation of another massive group of refugees? If so, is that option still there? Or, could the Palestinian refugees be helped, on a massive scale, to tranfer and assimilate into other culture or be given a parcel of land on the scale of the Israeli state, say about 8000 sq. miles, somewhere in the world, where they can be free?

 

[Proton Soup]

I think the Israelis should have a place of their own also. As well as the displaced Palestinians.

There is the argument that the majority of Palestinians weren't so much forced out of their homes by Zionists as that they left at the behest of the leaders of the surrounding Arab states in order to avoid the imminent conflict between Israel and the surrounding Arab states over the establishment of the Jewish state in the former British Mandate Palestine.

As I currently understand it, Mandate Palestine had been partitioned by the UN into at least two sovereign and autonomous states -- one, Israel, for the influx of Jewish refugess, and one, Palestine, for the indigenous Palestinian people.

The Arab leaders rejected the partitioning. I haven't learned why yet.

i think it is because land conquered in the name of islam is considered forever in the name of islam and cannot be ceded. and because they are jews.

Accompanying this argument is the question of why the Palestinian refugees can't simply be absorbed and taken care of by the surrounding Arab states, much as Israel was a haven for Jewish refugees from all over the world.

There is the contention that this isn't done because the Arab leaders have used the Palestinian refugees as political pawns in their effort to end the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. I don't have any opinion about the truth of this yet either.

in my opinion, they are pawns.

What is certain is that thousands of Palestinians were unable to resume their lives in the homes they left when they attempted to return and do that. It's sort of like if you went on vacation for some time and then came back to find your home had been taken in your absence. Israel's claim is that these people, the displaced Palestinians, have no legal right to their former homes.

To simply say that stuff happens and leave it at that isn't good enough if the principles that we Americans are supposed to stand for are to have any real meaning.

From what I've learned so far, the establishment of the Jewish state of Israel was viewed by the indigenous Arab people as an invasion. So that's one question that I have. Was it or wasn't it an invasion? It's not a matter of legality. The Nazi treatment of the Jews was legal under German law. It's a matter of right and wrong. Were the Arab states justified in opposing the partitioning of Mandate Palestine and the establishment of the Jewish state of Israel? Could there have been another haven established for Jewish refugees that didn't entail the creation of another massive group of refugees? If so, is that option still there? Or, could the Palestinian refugees be helped, on a massive scale, to tranfer and assimilate into other culture or be given a parcel of land on the scale of the Israeli state, say about 8000 sq. miles, somewhere in the world, where they can be free?

i am somewhat interested in the story of what happened when jews started migrating to israel/palestine. if they were settling in unoccupied areas and were attacked for being jews, then it's hard to defend the arab position.

i'm not sure where you would put the palestinians. maybe a piece egypt or other surrounding states. they've been hiding behind the palestinians to fight a proxy war with israel for years, so it seems fitting that they should cede territory for the cause.

 

[Werg22]

i think it is because land conquered in the name of islam is considered forever in the name of islam and cannot be ceded. and because they are jews.

Funny, I don't see too many Muslims claiming southern Iberia.

i am somewhat interested in the story of what happened when jews started migrating to israel/palestine. if they were settling in unoccupied areas and were attacked for being jews, then it's hard to defend the arab position.

i'm not sure where you would put the palestinians. maybe a piece egypt or other surrounding states. they've been hiding behind the palestinians to fight a proxy war with israel for years, so it seems fitting that they should cede territory for the cause.

Ceding territory would be tantamount to admitting the defeat of the Palestinian cause. The cause wouldn't be served, it would be destroyed.

 

[Proton Soup]

lol, you didn't have to do that astronuc. i already read the email.

 

[Astronuc]

The history of ME particularly Israel/Palestine is long and complex - and contentious.

At the moment two peoples would like control of the same land, and the conflict has bred animosity among members of each population toward the members of the other.

What to do when some people adopt violence as a means of addressing a conflict.