Why does the atom not fold onto itsef?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the stability of atoms, specifically why they do not collapse under electrostatic forces due to the attraction between positively charged nuclei and negatively charged electrons. Participants explore concepts related to atomic structure, the behavior of electrons, and the implications of atomic theory in the context of nuclear physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question why atoms do not collapse under electrostatic attraction between the nucleus and electrons.
  • There is mention of the electron's wave function and the probability of finding an electron in the nucleus at any given time.
  • Participants inquire about the possibility of modeling an electron's position over time and the limitations of such measurements due to the speed of electrons.
  • One participant asserts that electrons are not composed of smaller particles, while others discuss the composition of protons and neutrons, which are made of quarks and gluons.
  • Questions are raised about the implications of atomic theory, particularly regarding the divisibility of atoms and the existence of smaller particles like neutrinos and quarks.
  • Some participants note that nuclear physics applications are based on the ability to split atomic nuclei, indicating that this process has been achieved experimentally.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding atomic stability, the nature of electrons, and the implications of atomic theory. The discussion remains unresolved with no consensus reached on these topics.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the complexity of electron behavior, the dependence on interpretations of quantum mechanics, and the evolving nature of atomic theory in light of discoveries in particle physics.

Khaled332
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If the atom is composed of a nucleus with positively charged subatomic particles, and the electrons are in the outer orbitals which are defined as in an electron cloud, why doe they not attract and the atom does not collapse on itself due to electrostatic forces of attraction. Also is there a way to find out where an electron is in the electron cloud at a specific time, can you model a function of the atoms position in the diameter of the atom with respect to time,or is the electron moving way to fast to be observed? or can you just be somewhat accurate to a decimal? Also I know that electrons and protons are composed of even smaller particles like quarks and gluons, could someone specifiy me the location of these particles and if they have an electrical charge? Also If the atomic theory states that atoms are the smallest indivisible units of matter, why is it that an atoms protons and neutrons can be split into neutrinos, and glouns, and quarks, and isn't it theoritically possible for an atom to be split by such force that the nucleus will be split or broken apart isn't this somewhat correlated to nuclear physics applications we have today?

Thanks for your time
 
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Khaled332 said:
If the atom is composed of a nucleus with positively charged subatomic particles, and the electrons are in the outer orbitals which are defined as in an electron cloud, why doe they not attract and the atom does not collapse on itself due to electrostatic forces of attraction.

The electron has a wave function associated with it. The wave is in the area you would normally find an electron. There is also a probability that the electron is in the nucleus at any point in time due to part of the wave function being in the nucleus.

Khaled332 said:
Also is there a way to find out where an electron is in the electron cloud at a specific time, can you model a function of the atoms position in the diameter of the atom with respect to time,or is the electron moving way to fast to be observed? or can you just be somewhat accurate to a decimal?

According to the uncertainty principle, you can find out extremely precisely where the electron is at a specific time.

Khaled332 said:
Also I know that electrons and protons are composed of even smaller particles like quarks and gluons

Electrons are not composed of smaller particles.

Khaled332 said:
Could someone specifiy me the location of these particles and if they have an electrical charge? Also If the atomic theory states that atoms are the smallest indivisible units of matter, why is it that an atoms protons and neutrons can be split into neutrinos, and glouns, and quarks, and isn't it theoritically possible for an atom to be split by such force that the nucleus will be split or broken apart isn't this somewhat correlated to nuclear physics applications we have today?

The particles are in the nucleus. The nucleons are basically made up of only two quarks. The up quark and the down quark. The up quark has an electric charge of 2/3 and the down quark has an electric charge of -1/3. A proton is made up of 2 up and 1 down quarks. A neutron is made of 1 up and 2 down quarks. The atomic theory has already been changed to accommodate the smaller particles and what many people are learning now is just a simplification.

Yes, the nuclear physics applications we have today are based upon this fact. It is not only theoretically possible, it has been done. If you want to know more about the elementary particles, there are a lot of useful sites to help you with understanding the standard model.
 
Khaled332 said:
If the atom is composed of a nucleus with positively charged subatomic particles, and the electrons are in the outer orbitals which are defined as in an electron cloud, why doe they not attract and the atom does not collapse on itself due to electrostatic forces of attraction. Also is there a way to find out where an electron is in the electron cloud at a specific time, can you model a function of the atoms position in the diameter of the atom with respect to time,or is the electron moving way to fast to be observed? or can you just be somewhat accurate to a decimal? Also I know that electrons and protons are composed of even smaller particles like quarks and gluons, could someone specifiy me the location of these particles and if they have an electrical charge? Also If the atomic theory states that atoms are the smallest indivisible units of matter, why is it that an atoms protons and neutrons can be split into neutrinos, and glouns, and quarks, and isn't it theoritically possible for an atom to be split by such force that the nucleus will be split or broken apart isn't this somewhat correlated to nuclear physics applications we have today?

Thanks for your time

Please start by reading the FAQ sub-forum in the General Physics forum.

Zz.
 

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