Why does the Wikipedia article use a negative sign in the 4-gradient?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the use of the negative sign in the 4-gradient as presented in a Wikipedia article. Participants explore the implications of different notations for the 4-gradient, particularly in the context of the continuity equation and the Minkowski inner product. The conversation touches on theoretical aspects of tensor notation and the interpretation of covariant and contravariant components.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that the contravariant components of the 4-gradient are defined as ##\partial^{\mu} = \left(\partial_t, -\nabla \right)##, leading to confusion about the negative sign in the Wikipedia article.
  • Another participant suggests that the article may be conceptually unclear due to the notation used for the inner product.
  • A participant proposes that it would be clearer to consistently use either all contravariant or all covariant components when expressing the continuity equation.
  • There is a discussion about the potential confusion arising from repeated index notation and whether it implies a contraction or a literal sum, with participants expressing the need for careful interpretation.
  • One participant acknowledges a misunderstanding regarding the contraction of indices and clarifies the expected results when applying the Minkowski metric.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the clarity of the notation used in the Wikipedia article, with some agreeing that the notation is correct but potentially misleading, while others highlight the need for careful attention to the context of index notation. No consensus is reached on a definitive interpretation of the negative sign in the 4-gradient.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the importance of understanding the implications of different metric signatures and the potential for confusion in notation, particularly regarding covariant and contravariant components. There are unresolved questions about the interpretation of repeated index notation.

etotheipi
Apparently the contravariant components of the 4-gradient ##\partial## are ##\partial^{\mu} = \left(\partial_t, -\nabla \right)## where ##\nabla## is the usual 3-gradient. We can use the metric to lower the index like ##\partial_{\mu} = \eta_{\mu \nu} \partial^{\nu}## and if the signature is ##(+,-,-,-)## the space signs get flipped, so we should get ##\partial_{\mu} = (\partial_t, \nabla)##.

Why then in this Wikipedia article do they use ##\partial_{\nu} = \left(\partial_t, -\nabla \right)## when they write$$\partial \cdot J = \partial_{\nu} J^{\nu} = \left(\partial_t, -\nabla \right) \cdot (\rho, \vec{j}) = 0$$It's the right way round, since when we use the Minkowski inner product we recover the continuity equation ##\partial_t \rho = \nabla \cdot \vec{j}##, but they put a negative sign inside ##\partial_{\nu}##. So is it actually the other way around, i.e. ##\partial^{\mu} = \left(\partial_t, \nabla \right)## and ##\partial_{\mu} = \left(\partial_t, -\nabla \right)##? Sorry if I missed something!
 
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It looks like the article gets a bit muddled. Putting the inner product symbol between two rows of numbers is bound to get conceptually cloudy in this context.
 
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Ah, okay I think I get it now. Really it would be better just to say $$\partial \cdot J = \left(\partial_t, -\nabla \right) \cdot (\rho, \vec{j})$$either with all contravariant or all covariant components (in the above, all contravariant), or you can write it as the summation $$\partial \cdot J = \partial_{\mu}J^{\mu} = \partial^{\mu}J_{\mu}$$They're the same, but ##\partial^{\mu}## is an operator whilst ##\left(\partial_t, -\nabla \right)## is a tuple, and we shouldn't identify one with each other. So what they wrote is right, but maybe misleading.
 
etotheipi said:
Ah, okay I think I get it now. Really it would be better just to say $$\partial \cdot J = \left(\partial_t, -\nabla \right) \cdot (\rho, \vec{j})$$or to do the summation $$\partial \cdot J = \partial_{\mu}J^{\mu} = \partial^{\mu}J_{\mu}$$They should be the same, but ##\partial^{\mu}## is an operator whilst ##\left(\partial_t, -\nabla \right)## is a tuple, and we shouldn't identify one with each other. So what they wrote is right, but maybe misleading.
$$\partial \cdot J = \partial_{\mu}J^{\mu} = \partial^{\mu}J_{\mu} = \partial_t \rho + \vec{\nabla}\cdot \vec j$$
 
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PeroK said:
$$\partial \cdot J = \partial_{\mu}J^{\mu} = \partial^{\mu}J_{\mu} = \partial_t \rho + \vec{\nabla}\cdot \vec j$$

Sounds good to me 😜
 
Something else just occurred; how do we know whether someone is using the repeated index notation to mean$$U_{\mu}U^{\mu} = U_0 U^0 - U_1 U^1 - U_2 U^2 - U_3 U^3 \quad \left( = \eta_{\mu \nu} U^{\mu} U^{\nu} \right)$$or a literal sum$$A_{\mu} A^{\mu} = A_0 A^0 + A_1 A^1 + A_2 A^2 + A_3 A^3$$Is this just another case of needing to keep your wits about you?
 
It's never this:

etotheipi said:
Something else just occurred; how do we know whether someone is using the repeated index notation to mean$$U_{\mu}U^{\mu} = U_0 U^0 - U_1 U^1 - U_2 U^2 - U_3 U^3 \quad \left( = \eta_{\mu \nu} U^{\mu} U^{\nu} \right)$$

And always this:

etotheipi said:
or a literal sum$$A_{\mu} A^{\mu} = A_0 A^0 + A_1 A^1 + A_2 A^2 + A_3 A^3$$
 
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Ah, right, of course you're correct. I got muddled, it should be$$A \cdot A = \eta_{\mu \nu} A^{\mu} A^{\nu} = A^0A^0 - A^1 A^1 - A^2 A^2 - A^3 A^3$$if you contract ##\eta_{\mu \nu} A^{\mu} = A_{\nu}##, you'd end up with$$\eta_{\mu \nu} A^{\mu} A^{\nu} = A_{\nu} A^{\nu} = A_0 A^0 + A_1 A^1 + A_2 A^2 + A_3 A^3$$but then, with the ##(+,-,-,-)## signature, you have ##A_i = -A_i## but ##A_0 = A^0##, so $$A_{\nu} A^{\nu} = A^0A^0 - A^1 A^1 - A^2 A^2 - A^3 A^3$$and everything works out as expected! Thanks :cool:
 
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