Why has nothing evolved to not need sleep?

[-RA-]

Another interesting thing which indicates how important REM sleep is compared to other phases of sleep is that when you are in deep REM sleep you are paralyzed, often called 'sleep paralysis', you only move in your sleep when in other phases. Something seems very different about REM sleep when you are dreaming, compared to non REM sleep when you are not dreaming.

I suppose that the brain might do this so you do not start moving in accordance with your actual dream. But completely paralysing your whole body does seem quite a drastic measure, implying that something important is going on that takes a lot of brain power. I guess we just don't know exactly what yet.

 

[TVP45]

I have just found that exact experiment in a documentary. And it gives some very strong evidence for dreaming to be a form of pshchedelic trip due to endogenous DMT, as when the subjects were deprived of REM sleep they started to hallucinate and see patterns when they were awake. The brain certainly does seem to need this drug very frequently, and it seems very important to all animals.

you can see it in a short clip here; EDIT: clip does not work anymore.

The question arrises, why do all animals need this psychedelic so much? what purpose do you think it plays?

I think that may be a quite limited experiment with little control. As one who suffers from the opposite, i.e., over 90% of my sleep is REM (without medical intervention), I can assure you it isn't that simple. There are 5 basic sleep stages and we need them all.

 

[-RA-]

I think that may be a quite limited experiment with little control. As one who suffers from the opposite, i.e., over 90% of my sleep is REM (without medical intervention), I can assure you it isn't that simple. There are 5 basic sleep stages and we need them all.

The experiment was performed by leading sleep researcher prof Rosalind Cartwright, Rush of Presbyterian Hostpital, Chicago. I have uploaded the clip of the experiment myself now, as the other user removed it for some reason;
I have been reading some science papers on this as i find it a fascinating subject, and, just as I suspected, research into this area has been severely hampered due to the fact that DMT is one of the most illegal drugs in the world. A fine paper I dug up on this from the University of California, Berkeley, can be seen here; http://sulcus.berkeley.edu/mcb/165_001/papers/manuscripts/_794.html

They say;

Modern science has identified some of the active components of such sacraments, which has provided for limited research opportunities. Scientific research on these substances is currently very restricted by the U.S. Government's social agendas. Further research on entheogenic compounds coupled to dream state research will offer scientific advance in the study of dreams as well as cultural advances in understanding the value of entheogenic substances for therapeutic and religious use...
The striking similarity of entheogenic experiences to dream experiences tempts us to seek answers as to whether the benefits of dreaming are potentially linked to the benefits of entheogens. The molecular action of visions produced by dreaming is quite possibly very similar to visions produced by entheogenic drugs. Carefully designed research could lend great insight into the mystery of dreaming, the potential therapeutic value of entheogens, and the potential for neurochemical advances.

Serotonin has also been known for some time to play a role in sleep regulation. Numerous recent findings specifically implicate the 5-HT1 and 5-HT2 receptors in regulating sleep (Pastel et al. 1993; Sommerfelt et al. 1993, Tortella et al. 1989; Sharpley et al. 1994, 1990; Dijk et al. 1989; Kirov et al. 1995; Seifritz et al. 1996; Loas 1991). Sleep studies monitoring the effects of selective 5-HT1 and 5-HT2 agonists and antagonists administration in humans and laboratory animals have had impressive findings. It has been shown that the post-synaptic stimulation of 5HT1A receptors suppress REM sleep and increase slow wave (NREM) sleep in humans and laboratory animals (Seifritz et al. 1996; Loas 1991). Additionally, recent evidence establishes that antagonists at the 5HT2 receptors caused identical disruptions in sleeping pattern (Pastel et al. 1993; Sommerfelt et al. 1993, Tortella et al. 1989; Sharpley et al. 1994, 1990; Dijk et al. 1989; Kirov et al. 1995). In other words, when the relative activation of 5-HT2 to 5-HT1 was reduced, REM sleep (where the longest and most vivid dreams take place) was suppressed. Therefore, the relative activation of 5HT2 pathways compared to other 5HT pathways is implicated in REM sleep activation. The subjective experience of dreaming is likely a result of that activation, much like the pathway responsible for the effects of entheogenic drugs.

This data suggests a need for REM sleep but does not suggest what that need is. The most interesting findings are the symptoms of REM sleep deprivation (note that these subjects had full nights of sleep, but no REM sleep): Anxiety, irritability, difficulty concentrating, increased appetite, and even daytime hallucinations.

The data at this point is admittedly modest. It is provocative enough, however, to encourage further research on the subject. The relaxing of legal restrictions on entheogen research would contribute to the collection of quality data on the subject. Dreaming studies that administer entheogens and other powerful 5HT-2 agonists should prove useful in explaining dream/entheogen induced visions. Additionally, methods that allow for complete dream deprivation studies and scanning studies that monitor the activity of 5-HT pathways while the subject is dreaming could prove useful.

I noticed that DMT effects the brain in a similar way to the above described process.

and they conclude with;

Entheogenic drugs and dreams alike have a special place in the evolution of humankind and its value systems. Profound musical inspirations and scientific discoveries of the past century have even been inspired by them. Our ancestors religious views and values were influenced by their faith in visions communicated by entheogenic drugs and dreams. In an age of environmental destruction and moral erosion, the knowledge afforded by dream and entheogen induced visions could not be more valuable. Let us hope that our culture is fortunate enough to open our minds and build on the mysteries our ancestors have explored for ages.

Another paper I found which quite frankly states that dreaming is induced by tryptamine derivatives can be seen here; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=3412201

The visions of dream sleep are suggested to occur through a dream mechanism which implicates tryptamine derivatives as endogenous paychedelics. The hallucinations that occur in some schizophrenic syndromes are also proposed to occur through a similar, though desynchronized, mechanism. These compounds occur in the human pineal gland and are regarded as neurotransmitters or neuroregulators. A protocol for experimental verification is suggested.

This is from Wikipedia, and looks at the speculative aspects of this idea, (also includes some references to journal entries) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine

Several speculative and as yet untested hypotheses suggest that endogenous DMT, produced in the human brain, is involved in certain psychological and neurological states. As DMT is naturally produced in small amounts in the brains and other tissues of humans, and other mammals,[11] some believe it plays a role in promoting the visual effects of natural dreaming, and also near-death experiences and other mystical states. A biochemical mechanism for this was proposed by the medical researcher JC Callaway, who suggested in 1988 that DMT might be connected with visual dream phenomena, where brain DMT levels are periodically elevated to induce visual dreaming and possibly other natural states of mind. [12]

Dr. Rick Strassman, while conducting DMT research in the 1990s at the University of New Mexico, advanced the theory that a massive release of DMT from the pineal gland prior to death or near death was the cause of the near death experience (NDE) phenomenon. Several of his test subjects reported NDE-like audio or visual hallucinations. His explanation for this was the possible lack of panic involved in the clinical setting and possible dosage differences between those administered and those encountered in actual NDE cases.
From a researcher's perspective, perhaps best known is Rick Strassman's DMT: The Spirit Molecule (ISBN 0-89281-927-8);[14] Strassman speculated that DMT is made in the pineal gland, largely because the necessary constituents(see methyltransferases) needed to make DMT are found in the pineal gland. However, no one has looked for DMT in the pineal yet. Strassman thought that because DMT falls in the large class of chemicals called Tryptamines, which includes Serotonin, LSD, Melatonin (a hormone the Pineal Gland does produce), and Psilocybin.

I also find it interesting that if you are deprived of REM sleep your brain will always make up what you have missed when you next fall asleep. This again indicates that the brain, for whatever reason, regards dreaming as a very important stage in sleep and does as much as it can to produce the drug that causes the visual imagery of dreams.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/A276257

Experiments carried out by Professor Patrick and Dr J A Gilbert of the University of Iowa on sleep deprivation showed interesting results. The subjects all showed an increase of weight during the experiment, reactions generally slowed, memory became defective and power of attention was largely lost. Strangely though acuteness of vision actually increased in all cases. One of their subjects even began to hallucinate on the third night of deprivation. When allowed to sleep after ninety hours, the subjects did so readily and slept very deeply, showing increased time in REM sleep. The subjects only found it necessary to make up from 16 to 35 percent of sleep. After sleeping they recovered fully with only slight physiological reminders of the experiment, such as increased phosphoric acid in the urine, and effectively felt as they had before the experiment. The need of a sleep deprived person is not just for sleep, but for the two types of sleep that compromise it. This is shown by studies on selective sleep deprivation (Cohen, 1972). If a subject is deprived of REM sleep, for example, by waking him/her every time he comes near to it, then the subject will spend more time in REM the next time they sleep. Although sleep deprivation is not as permanently injurious in humans as in young dogs, it still has serious effects.

some other interesting comments on hallucinations after sleep deprivation, from; http://www.macalester.edu/psychology/whathap/ubnrp/sleep_deprivation/tintro02.htm

Some of the subtle and most profound effects of sleep deprivation involve some aspect of cognition. One experimenter distinguished between three types of psychological changes during sleep deprivation. These include psychoneurotic-like, schizophrenic-like, and paranoid-like reactions. Each of these reactions includes a number of sub-symptoms. Psychoneurotic-like reactions include anxiety (e.g., not being able to sleep again, or fear of being harmed), psychomotor complaints (e.g., headaches, nausea, loss of appetite), and irritation.
Schizophrenic-like reactions include illusions, delusions, and hallucinations, disturbances in thinking, and unprovoked emotion, such as laughter. These types of reactions are some of the most commonly reported experience during extended periods of sleep loss. Visual hallucinations have been observed in other experiments as well. Examples of these include the perception of tile squares to be pulsating and growing darker and larger, mistaking a desk for a water fountain, and the floor of the lab “appearing to be covered by a layer of shimmering water”. The frequency of these hallucinations may increase with sleep deprivation. A number of stages of visual hallucinations have been identified. These include identifying a disturbed perception, labeling a hallucination with no doubt as to its reality (i.e., being sure the hallucination is not real) labeling a hallucination with doubt as to its reality, and labeling and believing in a misperception (which is the true definition of a hallucination).

I hope that research is allowed to continue into this subject. Though considering the political ramifications of discovering that the strongest illegal drug in the world is actually produced naturally every night as you sleep, I am not optimistic.

 

[Moonbear]

Simple answer is evolution occurs on a need to basis. There is no direct or immediate need to evolve past sleep, thus we haven't evolved past sleep. Also, sleep is an evolution in itself. "Most animals, and probably most living organisms, exhibit a circadian rest-activity rhythm. It is possible that sleep may have evolved from rest to allow more flexibility within this rather rigid rhythm of rest and activity. Researchers think that sleep arose to allow organisms to conserve and restore their energy." (Irene Tobler, University of Zurich)

Read my comments in post #16. Your post suggests you have the same common misconception about evolution that I attempted to clarify already.

 

[arildno]

I have just found that exact experiment in a documentary. And it gives some very strong evidence for dreaming to be a form of pshchedelic trip due to endogenous DMT, as when the subjects were deprived of REM sleep they started to hallucinate and see patterns when they were awake. The brain certainly does seem to need this drug very frequently, and it seems very important to all animals.

you can see it in a short clip here; EDIT: clip does not work anymore.

The question arrises, why do all animals need this psychedelic so much? what purpose do you think it plays?

Very fascinating, indeed!
Ponder for thought, anyway, although I would have liked that link to work properly.

I haven't read through the extracts posted yet.

 

[Count Iblis]

Why has nothing evolved to not need sleep?

In case of peole the answer is easy. It is because people who need less sleep do indeed sleep less, as a result have less sex and therefore have less children

 

[-RA-]

although I would have liked that link to work properly.

I haven't read through the extracts posted yet.

 

[MagikRevolver]

Read my comments in post #16. Your post suggests you have the same common misconception about evolution that I attempted to clarify already.

There is no misconception on my part. You provide in post #16 that evolution occurs through mutations I presume. That is true. A random mutation could save a species, for example the rudimentary moth near a factory and darkening bark example. However, if the bark didn't darken the mutated moth would die out and there would be no evolution taking place. However, since the moths NEEDED to be darker, those moths survived, spread their mutated genes and we consider them evolved. Thus evolution occurs on a need to basis. That was the only arguable point in my post, as the rest was simple quote from the University of Zurich on the subject.