Why is "consciousness causes collapse" unprovable or unfalsiable?

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I heard that the consciousness causes collapse hypothesis is hard to verify or disprove. Anybody knows why?
 

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  • #2
vanhees71
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First of all, I don't think that a collapse exists at all, because it causes only troubles without being necessary to apply QT to real-world observations. Second, you have to define "consciousness". Have the detectors at the LHC a consciousness, because the measure/detect particles with their energy and momentum? Has the computer or the storage in it a consciousness, because it "takes notice" of the data and stores them? Or does it need a physicist taking notice, maybe years after the exepriment was done, to involve a consciousness leading to collapse of whatever?

In short, I consider all this complete non-sense. It's as good as any other esoterics. It's useless from a scientific point of view.
 
  • #3
Nugatory
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I heard that the consciousness causes collapse hypothesis is hard to verify or disprove. Anybody knows why?
Can you suggest an experiment that could falsify the proposition that consciousness causes collapse? Try it for yourself, and the futility of the effort will quickly become apparent.
 
  • #4
Demystifier
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I heard that the consciousness causes collapse hypothesis is hard to verify or disprove. Anybody knows why?
Essentially because you cannot measure consciousness (of another being).
 
  • #5
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Essentially because you cannot measure consciousness (of another being).
Demystifier. You wrote a paper saying qualia or consciousness is beyond physics. Although it is true consciousness can't collapse wave function.. but (what if (to avoid categorical statements that physicists dislike)) consciousness has effect on matter.. Demystifier.. can you please write a paper exploring what would be the mechanisms if qualia can affect matter. I've been figuring it more than 10 years already. You have all the background to figure it out. If I miss the mechanism and no one seriously look at it. It may slip at our hands for another century. I can't say more because this is against PF rule.
 
  • #6
vanhees71
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Define consciousness! Indeed your posting is again on the edge of being esoteric and thus beyond the scope of any scientific approach!
 
  • #7
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Define consciousness! Indeed your posting is again on the edge of being esoteric and thus beyond the scope of any scientific approach!
consciousness is related to qualia.. unfortunately. it's against PF rule to even talk about this.. so we won't have a chance of any meaningful conversation because this message would be deleted before we even start discussing.. therefore I appeal to demystifier to write a paper sharing all kinds of mechanisms "what if qualia has effect on matter".. then we can begin discussing using his paper as reference.
 
  • #8
Demystifier
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Demystifier.. can you please write a paper exploring what would be the mechanisms if qualia can affect matter.
Unfortunately, I can't.
 
  • #9
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Unfortunately, I can't.
I just deleted the paragraph long sentences I typed because I'm sure it would be deleted for personal speculation and disobeying pf rules.. lol... anyway so let me just ask this... why can't you write it? why do you believe qualia has no effect on matter? (our brain hasn't be fully mapped yet.. or let's say we make artificial brain.. it may just be an automaton when it doesn't have qualia...)
 
  • #10
Demystifier
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why can't you write it?
Because I'm not smart enough.
 
  • #11
vanhees71
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consciousness is related to qualia.. unfortunately. it's against PF rule to even talk about this.. so we won't have a chance of any meaningful conversation because this message would be deleted before we even start discussing.. therefore I appeal to demystifier to write a paper sharing all kinds of mechanisms "what if qualia has effect on matter".. then we can begin discussing using his paper as reference.
Well, fortunately there's peer review in all serious scientific journals...
 
  • #12
vanhees71
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Because I'm not smart enough.
Maybe you are rather too smart to write utter nonsense!
 
  • #13
Demystifier
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Well, fortunately there's peer review in all serious scientific journals...
... and even in serious philosophical journals.
 
  • #14
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Because I'm not smart enough.
Penrose tried in his book "Emperor New Mind".. but he was just ridiculed. Remember he said qualia was inside the planck scale.. so I think we may need to wait another century for the physics of it... by that time all of us are gone.. sad.. that's why I was hoping by hook or crook we can take the physics here right now in our lifetime... all the data is there.. we just need to figure out the physics...
 
  • #15
Demystifier
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.. we just need to figure out the physics...
I believe it will take a new Newton to figure it out. I mean someone who will think about it in a way radically different from what we are used to.
 
  • #16
Doc Al
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I think it's a good time to close this thread.
 

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