Why is the integrated velocity times change in velocity zero?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the dynamics of a galaxy during a high-speed encounter with a perturber. Participants explore the implications of assuming that star positions remain unchanged during the interaction, the resulting potential and kinetic energy changes, and the conditions under which certain terms in the energy equations are considered to be zero.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a scenario involving a galaxy and a perturber, stating that during a high-speed encounter, the positions of stars do not change, leading to a focus on kinetic energy changes.
  • Another participant questions the validity of the assumption that star positions remain unchanged during a galaxy-galaxy encounter, suggesting that this may not hold true.
  • Concerns are raised about the potential energy contributions from the perturber, indicating that this factor may not have been fully considered in the initial analysis.
  • A participant cites a textbook as the source for the claim that the term $$ \sum_\alpha m_\alpha \vec{v}_\alpha \cdot \Delta\vec{v}_\alpha $$ equals zero in an axisymmetric system, prompting further inquiry into the derivation of this result.
  • Another participant clarifies that the condition for the term to equal zero applies specifically to static axisymmetric systems, noting that non-static systems may yield different results.
  • It is suggested that understanding why the term equals zero in static cases is assigned as a problem in the referenced textbook, implying that further exploration of this problem may be necessary for clarity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the assumptions regarding star positions during encounters and the implications for energy calculations. There is no consensus on the validity of these assumptions or the conditions under which the discussed terms are zero.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexity of interactions in dynamic systems and the potential for differing interpretations based on system conditions (static vs. non-static). Participants reference specific sections of a textbook, indicating that further exploration of these materials may be necessary for a complete understanding.

sevbogae
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
So consider a subject system, a galaxy, with stars in it. This galaxy is passed by another object, the perturber. When the interaction is fast, we call this interaction a high-speed encounter.

Now we consider that the interaction is really fast. This means that during the interaction, the positions of the stars in the subject galaxy don't change. As a consequence, the potential energy doesn't change. The change in energy during the encounter is thus the change in kinetic energy. We can write the change in kinetic energy as the kinetic energy after the encounter minus the kinetic energy before the encounter
$$ \Delta E = \Delta K = \frac{1}{2} \sum_\alpha m_\alpha \left[(\vec{v}_\alpha + \Delta \vec{v}_\alpha)^2 - \vec{v}_\alpha^2\right],$$
where the sum is going over each individual star ##\alpha##. This can be rewritten to
$$ \Delta E = \Delta K = \frac{1}{2} \sum_\alpha m_\alpha \left[|\Delta\vec{v}_\alpha|^2 + 2 \vec{v}_\alpha \cdot \Delta\vec{v}_\alpha\right].$$
Now in a axisymmetric system, the last term, i.e.
$$ \sum_\alpha m_\alpha \vec{v}_\alpha \cdot \Delta\vec{v}_\alpha $$
equals zero. Why is this?

I tried to write the velocity ##\vec{v}_\alpha=\omega R \hat{\vec{e}}_\phi## and the change in velocity as a gradient of the gravitational potential but I can't seem to work it out. Any help? Thanks in advance
 
Physics news on Phys.org
sevbogae said:
Now we consider that the interaction is really fast. This means that during the interaction, the positions of the stars in the subject galaxy don't change.
Have you considered whether this assumption is actually valid for a galaxy-galaxy encounter?

sevbogae said:
As a consequence, the potential energy doesn't change.
Have you considered the potential energy due to the perturber?

sevbogae said:
Now in a axisymmetric system, the last term, i.e.
$$ \sum_\alpha m_\alpha \vec{v}_\alpha \cdot \Delta\vec{v}_\alpha $$
equals zero.
Where did you get this result from?
 
PeterDonis said:
Have you considered whether this assumption is actually valid for a galaxy-galaxy encounter?Have you considered the potential energy due to the perturber?Where did you get this result from?
I got it from "James Binney and Scott Tremaine (2008). Galactic Dynamics: Second Edition" (section 8.2
High-speed encounters, page 655). My question is about page 657, between equation (8.29) and (8.30).
 
sevbogae said:
I got it from "James Binney and Scott Tremaine (2008). Galactic Dynamics: Second Edition" (section 8.2
High-speed encounters, page 655). My question is about page 657, between equation (8.29) and (8.30).
Ah, ok. It looks like there is some more background explanation on the previous page, which addresses the two questions I posed.

sevbogae said:
Now in a axisymmetric system, the last term, i.e.
$$ \sum_\alpha m_\alpha \vec{v}_\alpha \cdot \Delta\vec{v}_\alpha $$
equals zero.
Not just an axisymmetric system, a static axisymmetric system. Big difference. Note that the discussion in this section considers the possibility of non static systems, for which ##\Sigma_\alpha m_\alpha \vec{v}_\alpha \cdot \Delta \vec{v}_\alpha## might not be zero; the "static" case is simply an approximation.

As for why ##\Sigma_\alpha m_\alpha \vec{v}_\alpha \cdot \Delta \vec{v}_\alpha = 0## in the static case, that is assigned as Problem 8.5 in the textbook. If you have trouble with that problem, you will need to post a separate thread in the homework forum (and abide by the rules of that forum, which require posting the applicable equations and your attempt at a solution). I would suggest reading that problem anyway since it gives a couple of hints.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 30 ·
2
Replies
30
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 62 ·
3
Replies
62
Views
8K
  • · Replies 30 ·
2
Replies
30
Views
3K
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
3K
  • · Replies 138 ·
5
Replies
138
Views
8K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K