Why is this tau decay not allowed?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the decay process ##\tau^{-} \rightarrow \mu^+ + \mu^- + \mu^-## and why it is not allowed within the framework of the Standard Model. Participants explore concepts related to lepton number conservation, neutrino mixing, and the implications for potential new physics.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that charge and lepton number are conserved in the decay, but question whether the process is fundamentally allowed due to the nature of weak interactions.
  • It is proposed that in the Standard Model, electron number, muon number, and tau number are conserved separately, with exceptions arising from neutrino mixing.
  • One participant mentions that processes violating individual lepton flavor numbers are rare in the Standard Model and could indicate new physics if detected.
  • Another participant states that lepton number is not conserved in the decay, emphasizing that lepton numbers associated with different flavors are conserved separately.
  • There is a discussion about the extremely low probability of the decay occurring, with estimates suggesting a branching fraction that is undetectable without new physics.
  • Questions arise regarding the role of neutrinos and their mixing in these processes, with some participants clarifying that neutrino mixing involves flavor change, which is unlikely to affect the decay in question.
  • Participants discuss potential Feynman diagrams and mechanisms that could theoretically lead to the decay, but express skepticism about their feasibility and conservation laws involved.
  • One participant asserts that a decay leading to three muons would require additional particles, such as a photon, to satisfy energy and momentum conservation.
  • There is a claim that lepton number is not conserved in neutrino oscillations, with a reiteration of the approximate conservation of charged lepton number due to neutrino mixing.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the conservation of lepton number in the decay process and the implications of neutrino mixing. There is no consensus on the mechanisms or diagrams that could allow the decay, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the fundamental reasons for the decay's prohibition.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of lepton number conservation and the unresolved nature of the mathematical steps involved in the proposed decay mechanisms.

unscientific
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Why is the decay ##\tau^{-} \rightarrow \mu^+ + \mu^- + \mu^-## not allowed?

Charge, lepton number are conserved. I have a feeling it is something really basic. I'm thinking in weak interactions you only go from a ##l^- \rightarrow \nu_{l}## and not 'hop' from one muon to another non-neutrino muon.
 
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unscientific said:
Why is the decay ##\tau^{-} \rightarrow \mu^+ + \mu^- + \mu^-## not allowed?

Charge, lepton number are conserved. I have a feeling it is something really basic. I'm thinking in weak interactions you only go from a ##l^- \rightarrow \nu_{l}## and not 'hop' from one muon to another non-neutrino muon.

In the standard model, electron number, muon number, and tau number are each separately conserved, except for very small effects coming from neutrino mixing.

One way of searching for physics beyond the standard model is to look for processes like ##\mu^- \to e^- + \gamma## that violate these individual lepton flavor numbers and so are negligibly rare in the SM. So a detection of a process like this would signal new physics.
 
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The_Duck said:
In the standard model, electron number, muon number, and tau number are each separately conserved, except for very small effects coming from neutrino mixing.

One way of searching for physics beyond the standard model is to look for processes like ##\mu^- \to e^- + \gamma## that violate these individual lepton flavor numbers and so are negligibly rare in the SM. So a detection of a process like this would signal new physics.
Got it. So lepton numbers must be separate, unlike hadronic numbers.
 
Lepton number is not conserved in this decay. The lepton numbers associated with the three lepton flavors are conserved separately in these interactions.
 
Even with neutrino mixing, this process is incredibly unlikely, with a branching fraction somewhere in the range of 10-50 to 10-60, completely undetectable. Comment from a theorist: "We didn't bother to make a more precise estimate".
Only new physics could lead to a detectable branching fraction.
 
How would the neutrinos or/and their mixing have something to do with these processes? :rolleyes: or are you talking about neutrinos changing their flavor (and so the conservation of each individual flavor's lepton number)?
 
Neutrino mixing means charged lepton number is only approximately conserved, but approximately means, as mentioned above, "good to a part in 1050".
 
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ChrisVer said:
How would the neutrinos or/and their mixing have something to do with these processes? :rolleyes: or are you talking about neutrinos changing their flavor (and so the conservation of each individual flavor's lepton number)?
Neutrino mixing is exactly the process of neutrinos changing their flavor.
That is frequent when the neutrinos can fly hundreds of kilometers or more, but as virtual particles within a decay process (necessary for tau -> 3 mu) it is extremely unlikely.
 
mfb said:
(necessary for tau -> 3 mu)

that's what I meant :) So the SM process would be like \tau \rightarrow \nu_\tau W \rightarrow \nu_\mu \bar{\nu}_\mu \mu \rightarrow Z \mu \rightarrow \mu \mu \mu^+?
 
  • #10
I doubt that diagram would be dominant. You can draw a box-like diagram with two W and two neutrinos forming the box, where one neutrino changes its flavor in between.
 
  • #11
would that really give 3 muons?
I think the best in odds [but only one muon as a product] would be a single loop, with the W in one (below) half and a changing tau neutrino to muon on the other (top) half...
this would lead to \tau \rightarrow \mu.
 
  • #12
Sure, that would give three muons.

##\tau \rightarrow \mu## is forbidden by energy/momentum conservation. You would need an additional photon, for example.
 
  • #13
And, I think lepton number is not conserved in neutrino oscillations.
 
  • #14
unscientific said:
And, I think lepton number is not conserved in neutrino oscillations.

Vanadium 50 said:
Neutrino mixing means charged lepton number is only approximately conserved, but approximately means, as mentioned above, "good to a part in 1050".
 

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