Why Max work is equal to electric work?

  • Thread starter Thread starter mooncrater
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Electric Max Work
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between maximum work (wmax) and electric work in the context of Gibbs free energy and Helmholtz free energy. Participants explore the definitions and implications of these thermodynamic potentials, particularly in relation to mechanical and non-mechanical work.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related, Technical explanation, Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the maximum work (wmax) is defined solely in terms of electric work when it should encompass both mechanical and electric work.
  • Another participant explains that Gibbs free energy accounts for total work available at constant temperature and pressure, implying that mechanical work is not included in this context.
  • A subsequent reply seeks clarification on whether Gibbs free energy excludes mechanical work by definition, while Helmholtz free energy includes it.
  • Further, a participant presents equations showing that mechanical work is explicitly excluded from the change in internal energy when calculating Gibbs free energy, but not when calculating Helmholtz free energy.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that Gibbs free energy does not include mechanical work, while Helmholtz free energy does. However, the discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of this distinction for the definition of maximum work.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the dependence on definitions of thermodynamic potentials and the assumptions regarding the types of work considered in each case. There are unresolved aspects regarding how these definitions impact the interpretation of maximum work.

mooncrater
Messages
215
Reaction score
18

Homework Statement


It was given in my book that:[/B]
Systems are capable of doing pressure-volume (mechanical work) as well as non-mechanical work(like electric work).
So,(ΔG)P,T=ΔH-TΔS=ΔU+PΔV-TΔS
And
ΔU=qrev-wmech-welec
=qrev-PΔV-welec
(ΔG)P,T=qrev-PΔV-welec+PΔV-TΔS
=-welec
Now in the book its given that:
(ΔG)P,T=-wmax
But wmax should comprise of both the mechanical and electric work . Why only electric work is taken as the wmax?

Homework Equations


None

The Attempt at a Solution


-
 
Physics news on Phys.org
That's what the Gibbs free energy gives you: the total work available or necessary for the process, considering that the system is at constant T and P. That means that any mechanical work is not taken into account, and is useful when that work is wasted or when you need to include the work done "for free" by the environment.

If you want to take into account mechanical work, you have to use the Helmholtz free energy.
 
Okay...that means Gibbs free energy doesn't include mechanical work(by definition) whereas helmholtz free energy does. Am I correct here?
 
$$
\begin{align}
dG &= dU -T dS - P dV \\
dA &= dU - T dS
\end{align}
$$
So you see that mechanical work is explicitly removed from the chnage internal energy when calculating the Gibbs free energy, but not the Helmholtz free energy.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: mooncrater

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
3
Views
6K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K