Why the bias against materialism?

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The discussion centers on the tension between materialism and idealism, emphasizing that materialistic views are often dismissed despite their empirical support. Participants argue that while science is a valuable tool for understanding the physical universe, it has limitations and cannot fully explain consciousness or the meaning of life. There is a critique of anti-materialist sentiments, likening them to historical resistance against scientific progress, and highlighting the psychological need for beliefs beyond materialism. The conversation also touches on the role of community in belief systems and the subjective nature of human experience. Ultimately, the debate reflects a struggle to reconcile scientific understanding with deeper existential questions.
  • #481
Originally posted by Iacchus32
Acknowledgment, dependency, consciousness, worship?

Of course you can apply any label that you like, but that still doesn't change things.

Surely you realize, Iacchus, that a plant is not capable of any of those things that you mention. After all, if all things were capable of these things, what would be the purpose of a complex brain, like Homo Sapiens Sapiens have?
 
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  • #482
Originally posted by Mentat
Were you asking this to me?
Asking everyone...
 
  • #483
Originally posted by Zero
Asking everyone...

Ok, I'd say that it's the same thing that causes a hungry animal to seek out food: the innate need to supply energy to our cells.

Now, a point that I feel should be mentioned is that this has nothing to do with a conscious choice of what's better for the plant (or for the hungry animal, for that matter). After all, the plant will tend toward the sun, no matter what (even if there is some animal standing there waiting to gobble it up). The plant doesn't "care" about the dangers, just as it doesn't "care" about the sun. It does what it's programmed to do.

It should be easy for you to apply this to the hungry animal yourself, so I won't state the obvious...
 
  • #484
Originally posted by Zero
LOL, at least you are consistant...did you ever consider including biology and chemistry in your answer?
Actually I was going to say photosynthesis, but I think there's another "scientific" term for this. How about phototropism?
 
  • #485
Originally posted by Zero
Oddly enough, I think it was a semantic error...because the subjective viewpoint is a matter of no two minds being physically identical. I am NOT saying that there is a mind/brain separation.

It could have been a semantic error, or it could have been a Freudian slip, which is what I took it for.
 
  • #486
Originally posted by Mentat
Ok, I'd say that it's the same thing that causes a hungry animal to seek out food: the innate need to supply energy to our cells.

Now, a point that I feel should be mentioned is that this has nothing to do with a conscious choice of what's better for the plant (or for the hungry animal, for that matter). After all, the plant will tend toward the sun, no matter what (even if there is some animal standing there waiting to gobble it up). The plant doesn't "care" about the dangers, just as it doesn't "care" about the sun. It does what it's programmed to do.

It should be easy for you to apply this to the hungry animal yourself, so I won't state the obvious...
I'll state the obvious...!

'Consciousness' is a refinement of the same physical processes that drive a plant towards the sun, and an animal to seek food. There's nothing 'mystical' or 'magical' or 'other' about it. It is the same thing as any other biological process, only on a different scale, and to a different purpose.
 
  • #487
Originally posted by Mentat
It could have been a semantic error, or it could have been a Freudian slip, which is what I took it for.
Nope, the only Freudian slip was yours about the 'physical love' stuff...LOL
 
  • #488
Originally posted by Iacchus32
Actually I was going to say photosynthesis, but I think there's another "scientific" term for this. How about phototropism?
So, are you saying that it is a physical process, or that plants have will and desire(not that I don't think those are physical as well)?
 
  • #489
Which again bring us to my position that there is no real dichotomy or mutually exclusive aspect to the objective material and subjective. They both exist, both dependant on the other for their existence in reality. Not that the phisical rquires the mental to exist or that the mental causes the physical to exist but that reality is a mental concept and for the physical to be known requires a conscious aware mind. The reality is that both exist in unison and in harmony and in nature, our arguements and name calling not with standing.
 
  • #490
Originally posted by Zero
I'll state the obvious...!

'Consciousness' is a refinement of the same physical processes that drive a plant towards the sun, and an animal to seek food. There's nothing 'mystical' or 'magical' or 'other' about it. It is the same thing as any other biological process, only on a different scale, and to a different purpose.

Good man!

Yes, that was the obvious (though I was - rather irrationaly - hoping that one of the mystics here would find that. Oh well, they probably needed you to spell it out for them anyway :wink:), and if you want a more detailed explanation of a plausible way that human consciousness could have evolved from such processes, just see "Consciousness Explained", by Daniel Dennett (you can even skip to the part called "The Evolution of Consciousness", but I suggest reading the whole thing).
 
  • #491
Originally posted by Royce
Which again bring us to my position that there is no real dichotomy or mutually exclusive aspect to the objective material and subjective. They both exist, both dependant on the other for their existence in reality. Not that the phisical rquires the mental to exist or that the mental causes the physical to exist but that reality is a mental concept and for the physical to be known requires a conscious aware mind. The reality is that both exist in unison and in harmony and in nature, our arguements and name calling not with standing.
Ummmm...ok?
 
  • #492
Originally posted by Royce
Which again bring us to my position that there is no real dichotomy or mutually exclusive aspect to the objective material and subjective. They both exist, both dependant on the other for their existence in reality. Not that the phisical rquires the mental to exist or that the mental causes the physical to exist but that reality is a mental concept and for the physical to be known requires a conscious aware mind. The reality is that both exist in unison and in harmony and in nature, our arguements and name calling not with standing.

I just got back, and I have to disagree with my good buddy Royce twice in the same thread? Man!

Anyway, I think that the subject of the "mind" and "consciousness" has been overlooked by the materialists and misused by the "opposition" (and I include you in this Royce, since, while you are not against materialism, you are not for it either).

The truth is that (as Zero pointed out) "consciousness" which we glamorize so much, is nothing more than a highly-evolved form of that which primitive animals and even plants have been doing for billions of years.

The fact that we've learned some "tricks" that they haven't is only interesting because one of those "tricks" is the ability to think of something as "interesting".
 
  • #493
Originally posted by Mentat
Good man!

Yes, that was the obvious (though I was - rather irrationaly - hoping that one of the mystics here would find that. Oh well, they probably needed you to spell it out for them anyway :wink:), and if you want a more detailed explanation of a plausible way that human consciousness could have evolved from such processes, just see "Consciousness Explained", by Daniel Dennett (you can even skip to the part called "The Evolution of Consciousness", but I suggest reading the whole thing).
Well, the 'obvious' is never apparent in the Philosophy forum, in case you have forgotten?
 
  • #494
Originally posted by Mentat
Surely you realize, Iacchus, that a plant is not capable of any of those things that you mention. After all, if all things were capable of these things, what would be the purpose of a complex brain, like Homo Sapiens Sapiens have?
Are you saying that a plant has no means by which to acknowledge the sun, and is not dependent upon it either? And since when is "acknowledgment" not to be construed as a form of consciousness? Or "dependency" not to be construed as worship? Granted, we're speaking of something in its "rudimentary form," but the same principle nonetheless.
 
  • #495
Originally posted by Mentat
I just got back, and I have to disagree with my good buddy Royce twice in the same thread? Man!

Anyway, I think that the subject of the "mind" and "consciousness" has been overlooked by the materialists and misused by the "opposition" (and I include you in this Royce, since, while you are not against materialism, you are not for it either).

The truth is that (as Zero pointed out) "consciousness" which we glamorize so much, is nothing more than a highly-evolved form of that which primitive animals and even plants have been doing for billions of years.

The fact that we've learned some "tricks" that they haven't is only interesting because one of those "tricks" is the ability to think of something as "interesting".
Well, I don't think that Royce is wrong exactly...I just know that he sees things differently than I do.
 
  • #496
Originally posted by Iacchus32
Yes, because "the intent" precedes the act, which then becomes the "outward manifestation" of the intent.


Why should it be altogther different from that of a computer? The computer -- which itself is neutral -- is just a means of expressing that which is "transferred" through the medium or software.

Whereas how did the brain get there, if it hadn't evolved, through "conscious intent," to become a brain? (in the capacity we now experience currently).
I just don’t buy it. In the case of the computer analogy you make it sound as if the software created the hardware, but that isn’t really accurate.

What I see is base matter; rocks, lava, water, etc. I simply see no reason to associate anything approaching a level of consciousness with these things, and yet it is quite easy to believe that these things existed long before living organisms, and their conscious awareness, came into being. Therefore I see matter as primary and not secondary. I also find it quite easy to believe that, despite the way in which we may marvel over ourselves, that if my head were to be flattened by a steam-roller, my marveling will come to an abrupt end. Everything that I’ve ever experienced indicates that consciousness is bound to matter, and nothing have I experienced leads me to believe that matter arose from consciousness, or that it can survive independantly without a physical counterpart. In other words;

“Though consciousness is secondary, it is a feature of highly organised matter - the brain - and therefore exists in reality. Far from being alien to nature, consciousness is as normal a product of the natural world as those material objects which it reflects.”

In keeping with the ‘will of consciousness’ thing;

“Consciousness really exists. It is an active element in man's transformation of the world, since we use our scientific knowledge to manipulate nature to achieve planned aims. 'Man's consciousness,' wrote Lenin,' not only reflects the objective world, but creates it.'

But that is not to say that consciousness exists independently of matter, which would be the view of an idealist, and I believe your view.

[edit]
I would edit to say that the use of the word 'creates' in that quote from lenin means only to me 'reshape', not 'something from nothing'.
 
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  • #497
Originally posted by Iacchus32
Are you saying that a plant has no means by which to acknowledge the sun, and is not dependent upon it either? And since when is "acknowledgment" not to be construed as a form of consciousness? Or "dependency" not to be construed as worship? Granted, we're speaking of something in its "rudimentary form," but the same principle nonetheless.
What I am saying is that those ideas have little basis in reality. Just because something appears a certain way, from an anthropomorphic point of view, doesn't make it so...by your logic, objects 'love and worship' the ground, and that is how gravity works.
 
  • #498
Originally posted by Zero
Nope, the only Freudian slip was yours about the 'physical love' stuff...LOL

Ha ha.
 
  • #499
Originally posted by Zero
Well, the 'obvious' is never apparent in the Philosophy forum, in case you have forgotten?

Well, it has been a LONG time...
 
  • #500
Originally posted by Zero
Well, I don't think that Royce is wrong exactly...I just know that he sees things differently than I do.

Yes, and when one sees the matter one way, and the other sees it another way, one of them is wrong. I'm not saying that that's necessarily Royce, and I'm not saying it's you (remember, I am the Devil's Advocate , so I don't usually express "my opinion"), but one of you must need correction.
 
  • #501
Originally posted by BoulderHead
I just don’t buy it. In the case of the computer analogy you make it sound as if the software created the hardware, but that isn’t really accurate.
I would go so far as to say the software created the need for the computer, Yes. Or else what good is a computer -- except to run the software?
 
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  • #502
Originally posted by Iacchus32
Are you saying that a plant has no means by which to acknowledge the sun, and is not dependent upon it either? And since when is "acknowledgment" not to be construed as a form of consciousness? Or "dependency" not to be construed as worship? Granted, we're speaking of something in its "rudimentary form," but the same principle nonetheless.

I think you've pretty much driven the last nail into your argument.

You said that the plant's tendency toward the sun is the (physical) process of phototropism. Now you say that worship and consciousness are just advanced forms of the same (PHYSICAL) processes.

Anyway, I don't think it's appropriate to say that "acknowledgment" can actually exist in a subconscious being. Acknowledgement is a conscious process.
 
  • #503
Originally posted by Iacchus32
I would go so far as to say the software created the need for the computer, Yes. Or else what good is a computer? (except to run the software).

But, as usual (things haven't changed that much) you are focusing way too much attention on the "purpose" of something. Besides, computers were created before the software was. That doesn't mean that there was some other purpose to their creation (other than running software, that is), but the software didn't exist yet. Thus (and this is the point that I tried to make a month ago): conscious beings ASSIGN purposes, or create something to fulfill purposes, but the purpose exists only in the mind of the creator and the user, it is NOT an intrinsic property of the device.
 
  • #504
Originally posted by Iacchus32
I would go so far as to say the software created the need for the computer, Yes. Or else what good is a computer? (except to run the software).
Then this is where we reach our impasse. It is nothing extraordinary for software to lag behind hardware development
 
  • #505
Originally posted by Zero
What I am saying is that those ideas have little basis in reality. Just because something appears a certain way, from an anthropomorphic point of view, doesn't make it so...by your logic, objects 'love and worship' the ground, and that is how gravity works.

Very well put. And it reminds one of the Greek Philosophers who believe just that. But they only reasoned that way because Science (which exists independent of anthropomorphic reasoning) didn't yet exist, and all they had was the (much broader) field of Philosophy, which could indeed be subjected to such personifications.

What's the difference between the ancient Philosophers and us? Progress.
 
  • #506
Originally posted by Mentat
I think you've pretty much driven the last nail into your argument.

You said that the plant's tendency toward the sun is the (physical) process of phototropism. Now you say that worship and consciousness are just advanced forms of the same (PHYSICAL) processes.

Anyway, I don't think it's appropriate to say that "acknowledgment" can actually exist in a subconscious being. Acknowledgement is a conscious process.
How about a single skin cell? Don't you think it's capable of just the "inkling" of consciousness? Or else how do we derive our "conscious" sense of touch?

If a living skin cell has that capablility, what's the difference between that and a living plant cell?
 
  • #507
Originally posted by Iacchus32
How about a single skin cell? Don't you think it's capable of just the "inkling" of consciousness? Or else how do we derive our "conscious" sense of touch?

If a living skin cell has that capablility, what's the difference between that and a living plant cell?

You can't be serious. Surely you know that the skin cell never actually "feels" anything. If I get poked by a sharp needle, motor nerves transfer the signal to the BRAIN, where it actually "matters". No, our body does not feel anything, if it did we wouldn't be a single organism, but rather a collection of millions of them. Also, there would be no point in our having a central nervous system, since our bodies would already be capable of feeling and reacting on their own.
 
  • #508
Originally posted by BoulderHead
Then this is where we reach our impasse. It is nothing extraordinary for software to lag behind hardware development
Except that a computer can't run without a program, even if it's just a "rudimentary" program pre-designed into the hardware.

And neither can a radio operate unless it has a signal to process.
 
  • #509
Originally posted by Mentat
You can't be serious. Surely you know that the skin cell never actually "feels" anything. If I get poked by a sharp needle, motor nerves transfer the signal to the BRAIN, where it actually "matters". No, our body does not feel anything, if it did we wouldn't be a single organism, but rather a collection of millions of them. Also, there would be no point in our having a central nervous system, since our bodies would already be capable of feeling and reacting on their own.
Then why is it that we "feel" it consciously in our skin? And yes, our bodies are a collection of millions of single-celled living organisms. How else would we be able to extract them individually and maintain them in a separate environment then?
 
  • #510
Originally posted by Mentat
I'm sorry if this point has already been made, I have yet to read the entire thread, but I think that you have missed the most important part of Zero's definition of "materialism", namely: "Can be shown to exist".


LOL. And you think the definition "can be shown to exist" is actually a meaningful definition? How is this any different from Just saying it is the same as Existence? There is no difference. There is no way that anyone would ever disagree with materialism if it is defined this way. To reverse the wording, you are saying that an Idealists only believes in things that cannot be shown to exists. What person in there right mind would claim such a belief? Now this may be what you think they effectively believe but that is NOT what an idealists would tell you they believe. Which is my point about having a "consistent" meaningful definition of materialism.

Also you have missed quite a bit because Heusdens has stepped in since the point you quoted and has provided a much better, more usable definition then the useless one you are quoting.


After all, we can talk of love, but it doesn't exist unless a certain brain/body process occurs, and it cannot be realized unless certain actions take place (for example, if I jump in front of a gunman to save my mother's life, I have demonstrated love).

A distinction can be made between a thing and the things that cause it. This does not mean that they don't exists. I don't necessarily agree with your comment in a later post that love is the exact same thing as the physical process that causes it. I do think that components and processes can have distinctive holistic effects. And it is the holistic effect that is being described when the word love is used.

And btw, to me jumping in front of a gunman would be demonstrating an "act of love" not love itself. Love can not be demonstrated unless you can actually make someone feel it. Which according to Heusdens makes it an immaterial thing that does exists.

So, I guess what my point is is that, to the materialist, love is a physical/material process, and there can be no love without some kind of physical interaction.

But this is a very different stance than saying that love doesn't exists at all. And maybe there is a freudian slip here because it looks like you are making a distinction between love and physical processes heheheh.

Overall this whole thread is very messy. There are many self proclaimed materialists who don't even agree with one another as to what it means to be a materialists. They are stepping all over one anothers arguments trying to get their jabs in. Yet the only people they are debating with is Iacchus32 and a few other people critical of the word materialism. So what are the true intentions here? Seems as if defending the word "materialism" is more important than defending any particular view.
 
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