Why were Buckyballs banned by the government?

[DaveC426913]

My kids never put things in their mouths that weren't supposed to go there. I kept things out of the way that could be a danger, and my kids weren't stupid swallowers. Don't know any nice way to put it.

If you're kids try to swallow anything they can get into their mouths, keep that stuff out of your house, or muzzle them.

And therefore the rest of the world operates the way your household did, so the world's rules should be applied as they do in your specific household.

(Not you specifically Evo, just in general. That's the gist of my problem with this.)

 

[Evo]

And therefore the rest of the world operates the way your household did, so the world's rules should be applied as they do in your specific household.

(Not you specifically Evo, just in general. That's the gist of my problem with this.)

Yeah, use common sense. Keep small objects out of your house. IT'S YOUR RESPONSIBILITY! No one else.

OMG, MY CHILD SUFFOCATED ON A PING PONG BALL!

Ok, that's YOUR fault, not the ping pong ball.

 

[Jakeus314]

Banning these is so incredibly wrong I can't explain my feelings. How? Just how can anyone think banning the sale will help ANYTHING... I feel bad for our country if this is evidence of future choices. The parents who let their kids swallow these things should be charged with a crime...

 

[Danger]

"anyone who doesn't see this the way I do is an idiot".

I never said that, nor did I imply it. What I said initially was that any 14-year-old who swallows magnets is an idiot; I then extrapolated it to other people who put foreign substances into their mouths and try to blame society for the outcome.

All red herrings and straw men. We are talking about this item, and this item has put many people in the hospital with life-threatening injuries. That's undeniable, no matter how many reducto arguments you put forth.

I guarantee that it's not even a tiny fraction of the number who have died of peanut allergies, and I don't see any blockades around Dairy Queen. I don't know about anyone else, but I sure never heard of those things being a hazard until less than 15 years ago.

Yes - if cutting their fingers on pop cans and requiring hospitalization with life threatening injuries were starting to become common - you can bet your granny's girdle they'd be pulling the product and replacing it with something safer.

I very much doubt that, and the kind of idiots who get cut are the same kind who eat magnets.

As for the other ones, (golf clubs, rifles), clearly you are not reading anything I've been saying about devices whose danger is readily apparent.

Really? How many people actually think about the hazard presented by golf tees? A kid who would swallow a magnet would probably stab himself with one of those. Or poke his eye out. (I saw someone get stabbed with one once, when he sat down without realizing that it was in his pants pocket. It was funny as hell to the rest of us, but he sure didn't think so.)

Too many people think they know too much about how the world works, and how it should work for them.

I know that my part of the world works very well by having people not eat inorganic objects.

 

[Nano-Passion]

And he has made it abundantly clear. My point is that no competent parent will give anything swallowable to a kid who is stupid enough to swallow it. If they do, they have no right to blame anyone else for the results. That's why 2-year-olds don't get Teddy bears whose eyes can be pulled off and eaten. Guess what a Lego brick can do to a kid's guts. I don't see them being outlawed.

Well yes, I agree. Which is why I responded that most other objects are not taken seriously until it becomes publicized on TV or by other sources of media.

 

[Curious3141]

I would point out that only the packaging has that label. Once out of the packaging their innocuity belies their danger.

Pills are dangerous too, which is why we now know to keep them in their bottles - with labels.

On the same basis, the following are dangerous in that they pose a swallowing risk, bear no caution on the product itself (sans packaging) and should therefore be banned:

1) Tyre valve caps
2) Used or discarded staples
3) Ball bearings
4) Nails
5) Screws
6) Rivets
7) Button cells
8) Toothpicks
9) Cotton swabs (what you call "Q-tips" in the US)

and too many other household things to name. Heck, if we want to absolve the parents of ALL responsibility, we might as well include packets of dessicant (silica gel) with a "DO NOT EAT" warning clearly printed on the packaging, on the basis that the children likely to swallow those packets are unlikely to read and/or heed that warning.

We have to be reasonable about this. At some point, we have to draw the line and say that parents should step up and be responsible for the safety of their children. When I was a kid, my toys didn't come with screw-on battery compartments. Now, every single one of my own kid's toys come with this "feature", and frankly, it's a PITA, because my son has never been dense enough to attempt swallowing one of his batteries. In fact, it's a completely unnecessary imposition because my son manages his own battery collection, has his own battery tester, and has a screwdriver to change out used batteries himself. The fact of the matter is, I did a risk assessment, satisfied myself that he fully understood the risks, and was smart/mature enough not to do anything stupid, and I let him have the freedom to do these things which modern children are apparently not "supposed" to be doing.

Let's stop mollycoddling the children, let's reintroduce the notion of parental responsibility, and stop blaming the least likely party for mishaps. Only then will there be real hope for society.

(BTW, I agree with the bans on some obviously hazardous things like lead paint on chew toys for infants, because there is no way to escape the hazard even with full parental supervision. In these cases, using the toy as intended carries a serious hazard. What I'm against is taking this sort of caution to the extreme).

 

[Evo]

On the same basis, the following are dangerous in that they pose a swallowing risk, bear no caution on the product itself (sans packaging) and should therefore be banned:

1) Tyre valve caps
2) Used or discarded staples
3) Ball bearings
4) Nails
5) Screws
6) Rivets
7) Button cells
8) Toothpicks
9) Cotton swabs (what you call "Q-tips" in the US)

and too many other household things to name. Heck, if we want to absolve the parents of ALL responsibility, we might as well include packets of dessicant (silica gel) with a "DO NOT EAT" warning clearly printed on the packaging, on the basis that the children likely to swallow those packets are unlikely to read and/or heed that warning.

We have to be reasonable about this. At some point, we have to draw the line and say that parents should step up and be responsible for the safety of their children. When I was a kid, my toys didn't come with screw-on battery compartments. Now, every single one of my own kid's toys come with this "feature", and frankly, it's a PITA, because my son has never been dense enough to attempt swallowing one of his batteries. In fact, it's a completely unnecessary imposition because my son manages his own battery collection, has his own battery tester, and has a screwdriver to change out used batteries himself. The fact of the matter is, I did a risk assessment, satisfied myself that he fully understood the risks, and was smart/mature enough not to do anything stupid, and I let him have the freedom to do these things which modern children are apparently not "supposed" to be doing.

Let's stop mollycoddling the children, let's reintroduce the notion of parental responsibility, and stop blaming the least likely party for mishaps. Only then will there be real hope for society.

(BTW, I agree with the bans on some obviously hazardous things like lead paint on chew toys for infants, because there is no way to escape the hazard even with full parental supervision. In these cases, using the toy as intended carries a serious hazard. What I'm against is taking this sort of caution to the extreme).

A sane parent! Bravo!

 

[DaveC426913]

1) Tyre valve caps
2) Used or discarded staples
3) Ball bearings
4) Nails
5) Screws
6) Rivets
7) Button cells
8) Toothpicks
9) Cotton swabs (what you call "Q-tips" in the US)

Zero of which are toys.

Being toys is one of the stipulations I mentioned.

 

[Integral]

I hear ya, but I still insist, a product is a legitimate danger to the public if:

- it can send you to the hospital with life-threatening injuries
and
- it is otherwise a reasonably innocuous thing, not known by most people to have such a risk associated with it
and yet
- is a toy.

Perhaps they should have banned it as a hazard rather then a defective product.

 

[DaveC426913]

A sane parent! Bravo!

That sane parent has to know something is a danger.

Should every parent race to the emerg every time their child swallows a nickel? No. The doctor would cuff them updside the head and send them home with a laxative. We have been taught that, common sensically some things are not a danger if swallowed.

These magnets are a (relatively) new health risk.

 

[DaveC426913]

Perhaps they should have banned it as a hazard rather then a defective product.

Is that particular distinction in contention?

 

[Hurkyl]

Really? How many people actually think about the hazard presented by golf tees? A kid who would swallow a magnet would probably stab himself with one of those. Or poke his eye out. (I saw someone get stabbed with one once, when he sat down without realizing that it was in his pants pocket. It was funny as hell to the rest of us, but he sure didn't think so.)

A danger clearly indicated by its appearance as a long, thin, pointy object.

 

[Danger]

Zero of which are toys.

Being toys is one of the stipulations I mentioned.

And again you are blatantly ignoring the fact that Buckyballs are not toys, were never intended as toys, and were never marketed as toys. A desk toy is by definition intended as a distraction for adults in an office environment.

A danger clearly indicated by its appearance as a long, thin, pointy object.

Yeah, indicated to an adult. How many of golfers do you think lock them away or even warn their kids to leave them be? Probably none, because they assume that their kids are smart enough to not get hurt by them. That is as likely to fail as the assumption that the kid is too smart to eat magnets.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Buckyballs have been banned? Male buckies must be really bummed!

 

[Hurkyl]

Yeah, indicated to an adult. How many of golfers do you think lock them away or even warn their kids to leave them be? Probably none, because they assume that their kids are smart enough to not get hurt by them. That is as likely to fail as the assumption that the kid is too smart to eat magnets.

You're so wrapped up in your misanthropy you are completely missing the core issue here: the danger of the golf tee is indicated. The dangers of a golf tee are in line with the danger one would normally expect from its appearance as a pointy object.

Now, tell me, what danger is normally posed by a small, smooth, metal sphere? Include the hazards of swallowing such an object.

Now compare that against the danger posed by a Buckyball.I don't really have an opinion on the topic, but it is frustrating seeing so many strong opinions that completely ignore one of the most important aspects of the situation.
As an aside, magnets as a severe swallowing hazard isn't a particularly new thing, is it? Is this one of those things that crops up every now and then before people forget about it until the next time it happens?

 

[Nano-Passion]

Buckyballs have been banned? Male buckies must be really bummed!

It hasn't. Some organization asked the company to stop producing buckeyballs, but that won't happen without a fight of course.

 

[Curious3141]

Zero of which are toys.

Being toys is one of the stipulations I mentioned.

It's not a toy marketed to kids. As Danger has mentioned, it's a desk toy for adults and you can't find it in Toys R Us.

None of those things I mentioned are toys for kids either.

 

[Curious3141]

A sane parent! Bravo!

Thank you, Evo. It irritates me when people don't take responsibility for their own parenting decisions.

 

[Danger]

You're so wrapped up in your misanthropy you are completely missing the core issue here

I'm not missing anything; I'm contending that your so-called "core issue" is a non-issue.

Now, tell me, what danger is normally posed by a small, smooth, metal sphere? Include the hazards of swallowing such an object.

Chipped teeth, inhalation, possible heavy-metal poisoning, bacterial infection, acute embarrassment, appendicitis... That's off the top of my head, but I'm sure that I could come up with more if I do some research.

I notice by the linked article that Daisy, a few years back, refused to recall their BB guns. They should get together and sell the damned Buckyballs as ammo. They're clog up the barrels and nobody can get hurt.

 

[DaveC426913]

It's not a toy marketed to kids. As Danger has mentioned, it's a desk toy for adults and you can't find it in Toys R Us.

So you agree: a toy. Just confirming that.

 

[Curious3141]

So you agree: a toy. Just confirming that.

Just like sex toys are toys, too. I suppose you don't think there's anything worrisome about a child having access to those either.

 

[DaveC426913]

I don't really have an opinion on the topic, but it is frustrating seeing so many strong opinions that completely ignore one of the most important aspects of the situation.

Thank you. It does seem that my detractors are picky about which parts of my argument they refute, missing that it is a conflagration of conditions.

 

[DaveC426913]

Just like sex toys are toys, too. I suppose you don't think there's anything worrisome about a child having access to those either.

1] Sex toys are not toys in the sense of the word toy. They have a specific purpose and a place, and it's not to be left out on the counter or desk for someone to pick up and play with for entertainment. That's enough to define their use as under reasonably controlled conditions.
And even if it isn't:
2] How many sex toys do you know that a child could easily accidentally swallow and give them life-threatening injuries?

You keep setting up these red herrings and I'll keep knockin' em down.I can propose some likewise silly counter-examples. There should be no problem making toys out of lead. As long as they are properly labeled, it is the parent's responsibility to properly check out anything their kids play with. No corporation should be burdened with the responsibility of producing toys that are safe for kids.

 

[Curious3141]

How many sex toys do you know that a child could easily accidentally swallow?

You're completely missing the point here. You seem to be bent on scoring debating points by equating one type of "toy" with all others. I'm merely pointing out the ludicrousness of your stand.

I repeat: this is a desk "toy" *for adults*. It is not a children's toy, nor is it intended to be. It is as far from being a child's plaything as a dildo or a fleshlight would be. To let a child have access to this thing, let alone unfettered and unsupervised access to the point where they actually swallow the thing is parental irresponsibility. Noone to blame but the parents. End of story.

 

[DaveC426913]

It is as far from being a child's plaything as a dildo or a fleshlight would be. To let a child have access to this thing, let alone unfettered and unsupervised access to the point where they actually swallow the thing is parental irresponsibility.

Let's walk through it.

Why is it bad to let children have access to it? Humor me.

 

[Curious3141]

Let's walk through it.

Why is it bad to let children have access to it? Humor me.

Because a parent should be aware of the risks posed if it's swallowed, for example. It's meant for adults to amuse themselves with and adorn their desk with. It's meant to be kept away from kids because it's not safe for kids to be playing with!

If a kid got hold of it and managed to swallow it with dire consequences, then it's very unfortunate, but the parent(s)/babysitter(s)/other responsible adult(s) are the ones to blame. Not the manufacturer, which has *never* tried to market this as a kid's product!

What are you finding so difficult about this?

 

[Hurkyl]

Chipped teeth, inhalation, possible heavy-metal poisoning, bacterial infection, acute embarrassment, appendicitis... That's off the top of my head, but I'm sure that I could come up with more if I do some research.

Good. Also, note the likelihood of the individual complications is important. Getting holes punched in your digestive system is not on the list.


You talk about people neglecting the dangers of a golf tee, but you don't realize that BuckyTees, due to an accident of its design, release a potent poison when in direct contact with blood. You laughed at your buddy getting stabbed from sitting on a golf tee he wasn't aware of. If it happened to be a BuckyTee, would you still find it a laughing matter?

 

[DaveC426913]

What are you finding so difficult about this?

Like I said. Humor me. You are leaping to conclusions that I think are shaky.

Because a parent should be aware of the risks posed if it's swallowed, for example.

And how would parents know this?

Magnets have been around for a century or more, and have never been a cause for life-threatening injuries, even if swallowed. As parents, we learn what is a danger and what is not. As I mentioned, we learn that every child who swallows a nickel does not get an ambulance ride to Emerg. Every child that eats dirt is not an idiot.

But.

Now something has changed. With little fanfare and little physical sign, magnets have become a device that can lead to life-threatening injuries.

How exactly are all parents (not just 90%, but all) supposed to know that something's changed? Do you think all parents have an account on ThinkGeek?

Responsible parents are simply not prepared for this change. The public needs to be made more aware of this (just like they did when microwave ovens first came out for example). Simply telling corporations they should put better labels on the packaging is not working. Corporations need to take some share of the responsibility. And threatening to ban a product is a good way (possibly the only way) to get a corporation to come to the table to solve this problem.

 

[Nano-Passion]

I have studied this in my English composition class. The two sides will not come to terms with each other, both opinions will be influenced by their personality traits and past experience. For example a conservative vs. a liberal mindset (I've did a research paper on this before).

Best that can happen is for the two sides to acknowledge that they are both right in their own respect. There shouldn't be any derogatory comments against the other side, we live in a complex subjective world.

If I remember the quote right, it goes by the saying that a fool is often so certain, while the wise is not completely certain about anything. With that said, both sides have very good points.

Corporations need to take some share of the responsibility.

In most cases they should. In this case though it seems that the corporation gave a good effort in keeping it away from kids. But they can probably do better, such as an explicit warning on the box itself that might say something like "Warning, very dangerous if swallowed due to x,y,z."

And threatening to ban a product is a good way (possibly the only way) to get a corporation to come to the table to solve this problem.

Yep, that is often how the world works.

 

[Monique]

What part is not clear?

Warning Keep Away From All Children! Do not put in nose or mouth. Swallowed magnets stick to intestines causing serious injury or death. Seek immediate medical attention if magnets are swallowed or inhaled.

 

[Nano-Passion]

What part is not clear?

Warning Keep Away From All Children! Do not put in nose or mouth. Swallowed magnets stick to intestines causing serious injury or death. Seek immediate medical attention if magnets are swallowed or inhaled.

Is this located on the cover of the box or in a paper packet that nobody really reads?

 

[Char. Limit]

Is this located on the cover of the box or in a paper packet that nobody really reads?

If you don't read the packet, that's kinda your fault.

 

[Monique]

Is this located on the cover of the box or in a paper packet that nobody really reads?

http://www.onefoottsunami.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/20100917buckyballs/buckyballs.jpg

 

[Danger]

Good. Also, note the likelihood of the individual complications is important. Getting holes punched in your digestive system is not on the list.


You talk about people neglecting the dangers of a golf tee, but you don't realize that BuckyTees, due to an accident of its design, release a potent poison when in direct contact with blood. You laughed at your buddy getting stabbed from sitting on a golf tee he wasn't aware of. If it happened to be a BuckyTee, would you still find it a laughing matter?

Very mature of you; I answer your question and you change the rules to something totally in the realm of fantasy. As for the perforation, have you ever seen a ruptured appendix? My father was less than 10 minutes away from dying because his blew in the ambulance. One of your innocent little metal balls can cause that, whether or not you care to admit it.

we learn that every child who swallows a nickel does not get an ambulance ride to Emerg. Every child that eats dirt is not an idiot.

Wrong on both counts. We don't learn any such thing; it's just your opinion with no basis in fact.

Best that can happen is for the two sides to acknowledge that they are both right in their own respect. There shouldn't be any derogatory comments against the other side, we live in a complex subjective world.

Quiet, you! This is no place for logic.

 

[Monique]

I see only 1 case reported by the CDC of a child dying by swallowed magnets since 2002.

Thousands of children die yearly by guns. Just sayin'..

 

[DaveC426913]

Best that can happen is for the two sides to acknowledge that they are both right in their own respect. There shouldn't be any derogatory comments against the other side, we live in a complex subjective world.

I agree.Point of order, in case there was some misunderstanding: my claim was never that these things should be banned; my claim was only that, while at first glance, it seemed a pretty obvious case of caveat emptor, second glance suggested this is a hazard that needs to be dealt with before someone dies.

And I do believe that, as a part of society, we are supposed to come together to help each other from harm.

In the marine world there's a saying: When an accident happens, it's everyone's fault.

 

[Evo]

I agree.


Point of order, in case there was some misunderstanding: my claim was never that these things should be banned; my claim was only that, while at first glance, it seemed a pretty obvious case of caveat emptor, second glance suggested this is a hazard that needs to be dealt with before someone dies.

And I do believe that, as a part of society, we are supposed to come together to help each other from harm.

In the marine world there's a saying: When an accident happens, it's everyone's fault.

It would be wrong to baby-proof the entire world. It's beyond ridiculous to even suggest it. That's why there are parents and warnings and common sense, and we don't sell guns and poisons to babies. The magneitc balls fall under the above.

 

[DaveC426913]

It would be wrong to baby-proof the entire world. It's beyond ridiculous to even suggest it.

No one did, so I don't know why you bring it up.

and common sense,

Part of my argument is that new technology renders "common sense" moot. How can you have common sense about something you've never encountered before or don't know about, or worst of all, thought you knew about but they changed the rules?Anyway, I've made my point. Several times in fact.

 

[Evo]

Anyway, I've made my point. Several times in fact.

What, that everyone is responsible for the stupidity of others? I disagree.

 

[DaveC426913]

What, that everyone is responsible for the stupidity of others? I disagree.

It is disingenuous of you to cherry pick parts of my argument, eliminate them, then substitute your own words. It is also an indication that you have no better argument than to put words in my mouth.

I was trying to have an intelligent discussion and encourage people see an alternate point of view than the self-reinforcing one they usually stick with. But I'm not up for schoolyard arguing tactics.

:raspberry:

 

[Nano-Passion]

Quiet, you! This is no place for logic.

Darn! Why didn't someone tell me earlier?

This thread shows me why politics takes years (I'll revisit this thread after a couple of years when a consensus is reached)! It has also showed me why I decided not to go into politics.

 

[Evo]

It is disingenuous of you to cherry pick parts of my argument, eliminate them, then substitute your own words. It is also an indication that you have no better argument than to put words in my mouth.

I was trying to have an intelligent discussion and encourage people see an alternate point of view than the self-reinforcing one they usually stick with. But I'm not up for schoolyard arguing tactics.

:raspberry:

I am specifically responding to your post.

And I do believe that, as a part of society, we are supposed to come together to help each other from harm.

In the marine world there's a saying: When an accident happens, it's everyone's fault.

So stop the schoolyard tactics dave, you been warned before about your inability to stop the "devil's advocate" nonsense. Arguing just for the sake of arguing. Stop it.

 

[Evo]

It was an attempt at levity, to prevent the thread from going sour.

The thread is being looked at by the mentors now.