News Why Would an Adult Target Kindergarten Students in a Shooting?

[AlephZero]

IMO gun laws are pretty much irrelevant to extreme events like this.

On the other hand, they probably ARE relevant to the fact that roughly the same number of people are killed in road accidents and by firearms in the USA, compared with a ratio bigger than 10:1 in the UK. But that discussion is off topic for this thread, of course.

 

[Pengwuino]

Wow, can't wait to hear why a kindergarten teacher was amassing such a collection.

They haven't been specific as to whether or not the assault rifle was hers. The pistols only seem to be hers which I would hardly call a collection.

 

[Evo]

They haven't been specific as to whether or not the assault rifle was hers. The pistols only seem to be hers which I would hardly call a collection.

With extended clips and a boatload of shells? Was the bullet proof vest hers?

I can see a person owning a hunting rifle or shotgun if they hunt. Or a small hand gun if they fear a home intrusion. What she owned was excessive, IMO.

 

[TheMadMonk]

With extended clips and a boatload of shells? Was the bullet proof vest hers?

I can see a person owning a hunting rifle or shotgun if they hunt. Or a small hand gun if they fear a home intrusion. What she owned was excessive, IMO.

The important part there is that is in your opinion. You may wish to force your beliefs upon other people but that doesn't make it right.

You're also using the term clip wrongly. What you really mean is magazine.

 

[arildno]

The important part there is that is in your opinion. You may wish to force your beliefs upon other people but that doesn't make it right.

And if you load your house with arsenic, cyanide and other excellent pesticides and insecticides, you ought to have a right to do so?

(Actually, you don't have any such rights, even though cyanide has far more useful sides than a semi-automatic)

 

[CAC1001]

The AR-15 is not an assault rifle, it's just a low-powered semi-automatic rifle. An assault rifle is a rifle with automatic fire capability and those are already outlawed for the most part. The AR-15 can very much be used for hunting purposes and there are hunting-specific variants of the AR-15 and its bigger brother, the AR-10.

 

[Evo]

The important part there is that is in your opinion. You may wish to force your beliefs upon other people but that doesn't make it right.

You're also using the term clip wrongly. What you really mean is magazine.

I'm quoting the news description. We can get into how many guns one person needs at home in another thread another time.

 

[TheMadMonk]

And if you load your house with arsenic, cyanide and other excellent pesticides and insecticides, you ought to have a right to do so?

(Actually, you don't have any such rights, even though cyanide has far more useful sides than a semi-automatic)

That doesn't make any sense to me, it has been a long day.

There isn't anything stopping my having various chemicals within my house. What I do with them is where legal issues start to arise. The same is true of firearms.

Most people who legally own semi-automatic firearms will never, ever commit a crime with them. Why should they be punished when only a tiny minority are the problem. Seeking to impinge upon the freedoms of millions of people to try and prevent (and perhaps not even be successful) something happening is unacceptable in my opinion. We might as well ban anything that somebody might be able to use to commit a crime (so pretty much everything) and see where that will get us.

Clearly other people wish to force their opinions on other people but I do not agree with that in the slightest.

 

[TheMadMonk]

I'm quoting the news description. We can get into how many guns one person needs at home in another thread another time.

You brought it up by referring to her amassing a collection so why are you allowed to comment on it but I am not?

 

[jedishrfu]

In the history of guns, the ar-15 is the precursor to the m-16 where various component parts were hardened for military use.

With respect to the extra magazine clips, the shooter could have easily purchased them without any questions asked. Not sure about the bullets but buying small quantities would probably be under the radar. The sig and glock use 9mm caliber which again is fairly common especially for target practice use.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Perhaps the mother never read this:
we found that keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio, 2.7; 95 percent confidence interval, 1.6 to 4.4). Virtually all of this risk involved homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199310073291506

 

[Evo]

You brought it up by referring to her amassing a collection so why are you allowed to comment on it but I am not?

You can comment on her amassing a collection.

 

[Evo]

That doesn't make any sense to me, it has been a long day.

There isn't anything stopping my having various chemicals within my house. What I do with them is where legal issues start to arise. The same is true of firearms.

Most people who legally own semi-automatic firearms will never, ever commit a crime with them. Why should they be punished when only a tiny minority are the problem. Seeking to impinge upon the freedoms of millions of people to try and prevent (and perhaps not even be successful) something happening is unacceptable in my opinion. We might as well ban anything that somebody might be able to use to commit a crime (so pretty much everything) and see where that will get us.

Clearly other people wish to force their opinions on other people but I do not agree with that in the slightest.

Let's restrict this to what happened with this woman's collection of guns, and their use in the murder of dozens of innocent people, nothing else concerns this thread. Your fears are not pertinent to this thread, so let's leave them out.

 

[TheMadMonk]

You can comment on her amassing a collection.

Ok so what is the issue with the teacher owning the number and type of firearms she did?

 

[Evo]

Ok so what is the issue with the teacher owning the number and type of firearms she did?

Oh, I don't know, maybe the fact her 20 year old son used them to commit mass murder? If she didn't have all of those guns, maybe all of those people would be alive today?

 

[nsaspook]

Hug your kids and tell them you love them.

I just can't understand how any human could do this, now or in the past.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/history/bath/demon_2.html

 

[TheMadMonk]

Oh, I don't know, maybe the fact her 20 year old son used them to commit mass murder?

You are trying to sidestep now.

Wow, can't wait to hear why a kindergarten teacher was amassing such a collection.

It is implied that a teacher having a collection of firearms is wrong in and of itself by this post. What is wrong with a teacher owning the number and type of firearms she did (ignoring your previous answer as you are trying not to answer the question)?

 

[Evo]

You are trying to sidestep now.



It is implied that a teacher having a collection of firearms is wrong in and of itself by this post. What is wrong with a teacher owning the number and type of firearms she did (ignoring your previous answer as you are trying not to answer the question)?

No, you are reading things into it.

I'm just curious as to what her mindset was and if it had any bearing on her son's crimes.

 

[TheMadMonk]

No, you are reading things into it.

I'm just curious as to what her mindset was and if it had any bearing on her son's crimes.

I don't think I'm reading too far into it. You clearly have an agenda regarding gun control and because you can't justify your opinions when challenged about it you are trying to spin things.

Was the male known to police previously?

 

[edward]

I don't think I'm reading too far into it. You clearly have an agenda regarding gun control and because you can't justify your opinions when challenged about it you are trying to spin things.

Was the male known to police previously?

It looks like you are the one with an agenda.

 

[jedishrfu]

It's important that we stick to the spirit of this thread and not debate. We don't have the whole story. We can't surmise things based what we do know. We can't help these families. We can only be there for them.

This thread will invariably appear on google search as does all PF threads so we need to be respectful. In addition some of our members may have been affected and we to listen when they speak.

For those here who have experienced murder you know the pain of reading insensitive or argumentative Internet posts no matter how well meaning they may be.

 

[Evo]

It's important that we stick to the spirit of this thread and not debate. We don't have the whole story. We can't surmise things based what we do know. We can't help these families. We can only be there for them.

This thread will invariably appear on google search as does all PF threads so we need to be respectful. In addition some of our members may have been affected and we to listen when they speak.

For those here who have experienced murder you know the pain of reading insensitive or argumentative Internet posts no matter how well meaning they may be.

Yes, and having had someone dear to me murdered with a gun and witnessing another murder by gun, I can speak from experience, but we need to keep this thread about what happened.

 

[edward]

Does anyone have an accurate link to exactly what happened? I have read on various links that the mother was found dead at a residence in the town. It didn't say whose residence. I have also read that she was killed at the school.

I have read that hundreds of shots were fired from an assault rifle.

I have also read that the shooters girl friend and another friend in New Jersey are missing. This came from the same link that listed the wrong person as the shooter.

One news source claimed that the father was found dead in New Jersey yet another says he was questioned by police in CT.

It looks like the news media was so anxious to get the scoop that they published a lot of unsubstantiated statements from anonymous people.

There have been a lot of updates, but I haven't seen anything that clarified previous statements except that the younger brother was the shooter.

Edit: I didn't watch the evening news because my 8 year old grandson was here.

 

[Evo]

Does anyone have an accurate link to exactly what happened? I have read on various links that the mother was found dead at a residence in the town. It didn't say whose residence. I have also read that she was killed at the school.

I have read that hundreds of shots were fired from an assault rifle.

I have also read that the shooters girl friend and another friend in New Jersey are missing. This came from the same link that listed the wrong person as the shooter.

One news source claimed that the father was found dead in New Jersey yet another says he was questioned by police in CT.

It looks like the news media was so anxious to get the scoop that they published a lot of unsubstantiated statements from anonymous people.

There have been a lot of updates, but I haven't seen anything that clarified previous statements except that the younger brother was the shooter.

Edit: I didn't watch the evening news because my 8 year old grandson was here.

The latest that seems accurate is that 20 year old Adam lived with his mother and killed her, shot her in the face. Then he loaded weapons and ammunition into her car and drove to the school where she taught, left the rifle in the car but went in with the other guns. He went into the principle's office where he got into an argument with her (no explanation as yet), killed the principle, then went to his mother's classroom and killed her students (or most of them) and another room supposedly was also a sight for shooting. At some point they assume he killed himself.

 

[dlgoff]

I could only read the first couple pages of this thread as I have trouble handling sadness and anger simultaneously.
We need a new emoticon;

 

[edward]

The latest that seems accurate is that 20 year old Adam lived with his mother and killed her, shot her in the face. Then he loaded weapons and ammunition into her car and drove to the school where she taught, left the rifle in the car but went in with the other guns. He went into the principle's office where he got into an argument with her (no explanation as yet), killed the principle, then went to his mother's classroom and killed her students (or most of them) and another room supposedly was also a sight for shooting. At some point they assume he killed himself.

I think I have it straight now. I just can't believe how much this story changed during the course of the day.

Updated at 3:22 p.m. ET] It appears that another member of the alleged shooter's family is dead. A senior law enforcement official familiar with the investigation says a brother of the alleged shooter was found dead in a home searched in Hoboken, New Jersey. We already knew the suspect's mother was found dead in the elementary school.

(6:43 p.m. ET update – CNN’s Susan Candiotti is talking to investigators and has now learned that the mother of the suspected shooter was found dead in the suspect’s home in Newtown. No brother of the suspect has been found dead, and no one has been found dead in the home in Hoboken, New Jersey, investigators say.)

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/14/shooting-reported-at-connecticut-elementary-school/

 

[Jack21222]

The Onion sums it up nicely. Not safe for work language.

 

[Jack21222]

In related news, Mike Huckabee decided to blame the separation of church and state on the shooting:

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.c...ls-place-of-carnage-because-we-systematically

We ask why there is violence in our schools, but we have systematically removed God from our schools," Huckabee said on Fox News, discussing the murder spree that took the lives of 20 children and 6 adults in Newtown, CT that morning. "Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage?

Not only is this opportunistic on his part, it's just flat-out wrong. I can see no mechanism by which teaching kindergartners religion would have rendered them bulletproof.

This kind of thing is flooding my girlfriend's facebook page. She's non-religious, but went to school with a lot of highly religious folks, and they're spamming this same sort of crap that Huckabee did. It's mind-boggling.

 

[Evo]

In related news, Mike Huckabee decided to blame the separation of church and state on the shooting:

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.c...ls-place-of-carnage-because-we-systematically



Not only is this opportunistic on his part, it's just flat-out wrong. I can see no mechanism by which teaching kindergartners religion would have rendered them bulletproof.

This kind of thing is flooding my girlfriend's facebook page. She's non-religious, but went to school with a lot of highly religious folks, and they're spamming this same sort of crap that Huckabee did. It's mind-boggling.

<sigh> This kind of thinking makes me hope that people like him are a minority, but what is scary is that they got elected to a public office, IMO.

 

[CAC1001]

Not only is this opportunistic on his part, it's just flat-out wrong. I can see no mechanism by which teaching kindergartners religion would have rendered them bulletproof.

While I do not think he is correct, I don't think he is saying that teaching God would have rendered the children bulletproof. I think his point is that by removing God from the schools, it has led to a degradation of the morals of the students to the point that you end up with students doing things like this. In his mind, "God-fearing" students, who understand morality (as he sees it), would be a lot less likely to resort to something like this.

 

[Evo]

While I do not think he is correct, I don't think he is saying that teaching God would have rendered the children bulletproof. I think his point is that by removing God from the schools, it has led to a degradation of the morals of the students to the point that you end up with students doing things like this. In his mind, "God-fearing" students, who understand morality (as he sees it), would be a lot less likely to resort to something like this.

And he knows that this honors student was not raised to be "god fearing". It hasn't occurred to him that the guy had mental problems, which seems to be the case.

 

[CAC1001]

And he knows that this honors student was not raised to be "god fearing". It hasn't occurred to him that the guy had mental problems, which seems to be the case.

These are the types of people who claim God will punish America for embracing gay marriage (like the Chick-Fil-A guy).

 

[Evo]

These are the types of people who claim God will punish America for embracing gay marriage (like the Chick-Fil-A guy).

<sigh>

I'm just sick from today's events. Definitely ruined my holidays. We just had that guy with the mall shootings. I hope that the copycat killings end here. It just brings me to tears.

Everyone is coming forward saying how the school shooter had problems communicating and "fitting in" and the mother was very strict. Easy to believe that she wasn't happy about her youngest son's "failings". So Sad.

 

[Pythagorean]

Genuinely curious what is going through somebody's mind when they do these kinds of things.

 

[Rika]

No, this is the best time for debate. Because saying 'he is a freak, I can't believe it' is superficial and meaningless. People are dead and this is the fact.

That being said as European I will never understand Americans. For some reason more than 90% of you want to sleep with machine gun under your pillow or else you won't feel "free".

I don't sleep with machine gun but I don't feel that my freedom is restricted in any way.

It's true that if you can't buy gun in supermarket then events like that are less likely to occur.

But it's also true that in Canda the law is similar and yet events like that are rare. So how come? Maybe sth in your society is broken. I would love to hear any explanation for that.

 

[Pythagorean]

That being said as European I will never understand Americans. For some reason more than 90% of you want to sleep with machine gun under your pillow or else you won't feel "free".

you realize this statement is completely over the top to the point of being ineffective, no?

accusatory language: you, exaggeration: machine gun, exaggeration: more than 90%.

 

[justsomeguy]

But it's also true that in Canda the law is similar and yet events like that are rare. So how come? Maybe sth in your society is broken. I would love to hear any explanation for that.

The gun laws in Canada are closer to yours than they are to ours, and just because you don't "feel" less free doesn't mean you aren't. ;)

 

[Pythagorean]

But it's also true that in Canda the law is similar and yet events like that are rare. So how come? Maybe sth in your society is broken. I would love to hear any explanation for that.

My guess at the majority of violent crime in the US:

Parents in neglected communities who have to work hard leave their kids to run the neighborhood; education system (or lack of) in a neglected area doesn't make the most effective child care. Children get raised by other children who have children before they become adults. Emotions and tribal behavior dominate the culture. Warped sense of family values and no education.

 

[cristo]

That being said as European I will never understand Americans. For some reason more than 90% of you want to sleep with machine gun under your pillow or else you won't feel "free".

It's a historical thing. There was once a time when the Americans felt they were not free, so rose up to fight the ruling powers. But they didn't have the weaponry to overthrow the evil rulers, and had to rely on the French (who were in turn pretty screwed by getting nothing in return, apart from ensuring that the evil rulers were no longer the strongest global power). The Americans figured they wouldn't be so lucky next time, since they wouldn't necessarily have the enemies of their enemies to rely on, and so now sleep with machine guns under their pillows.

But seriously, I think gun debates never will be resolved since the issue is so polarising, and actually agree with Russ that a time like this is not best to enter into the debate since so many emotions are flying around.

My thoughts are with those families and the community involved in this tragedy. I was also pretty moved by Obama's open showing of emotion in his press conference.

 

[Astronuc]

There is still conflicting information in the media, some of that information attributed to officials. The parents, families and community are obviously in a state of shock and mourning.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/n...-shooting-sandy-hook-newtown-connecticut.html


http://news.yahoo.com/routine-morning-then-shots-unthinkable-terror-034139544.html

http://gma.yahoo.com/childrens-terror-newtown-massacre-192100426--abc-news-topstories.html

http://news.yahoo.com/brother-conn-gunman-wrongly-cited-shooter-031549744.html

The gunman's brother was misidentified as the perpetrator and quickly became a target.

Not long after Friday's shooting rampage at a Connecticut elementary school, media outlets began reporting the gunman's identity as 24-year-old Ryan Lanza of Hoboken, N.J.

His name and image quickly spread worldwide as the perpetrator of the nation's second-deadliest school shooting. Facebook and Twitter lit up as people vented their fury at the man they believed was responsible.

In reality, Ryan Lanza was at work in New York City when the gunman opened fire at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., some 60 miles away, and a law enforcement official later identified his 20-year-old brother, Adam Lanza, as the culprit.
. . . .

http://news.yahoo.com/police-world-wonder-conn-shooting-motive-080207412.html

NEWTOWN, Conn. (AP) — The massacre of 26 children and adults at a Connecticut elementary school elicited horror and soul-searching around the world even as it raised more basic questions about why the gunman, a 20-year-old described as brilliant but remote, would have been driven to such a crime and how he chose his victims.
. . . .
[Adam] Lanza is believed to have suffered from a personality disorder and lived with his mother, said a law enforcement official who was briefed on the investigation.

Still uncertainty.

A law enforcement official speaking on condition of anonymity said investigators believe Lanza attended the school several years ago but appeared to have no recent connection to it.

At least one parent said Lanza's mother was a substitute teacher there. But her name did not appear on a staff list. And the official said investigators were unable to establish any connection so far between her and the school.
. . . .

A preliminary attempt to profile Adam Lanza - http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/justice/connecticut-shooting-suspect-profile/index.html

Someone I heard yesterday indicated that there are many folks out there in the world who exhibit symptoms of the gunman, but they don't or are not inclined to act in a violent manner. In other words, one cannot necessarily identify a priori someone who might be disposed to turn violent.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

These events seem to occur most often in the USA and that's a fact worth looking into, but it happens elsewhere too. These events seem to occur most often with guns and that's a fact worth looking into, but it happens with other weapons too. These events seem to occur most often with mentally deranged individuals and that's a fact worth looking into, but it happens with cold calculating individuals and groups too. The common factor is us, ourselves. I am not talking about collective responsibility. That's a dodge used by lawyers to defend the ones that don't kill themselves in the process. Forgive him, society made him do it. What I am saying is that if you don't look for the cause in the human makeup, then you end up like the joke where the lost wallet is searched for not in the dark place where it was dropped but under the street lamp where there is more light. And more heat.

 

[gravenewworld]

31 mass killings with guns since Columbine, WHEN exactly is it the right time to start discussing gun control then if not now?

 

[Astronuc]

31 mass killings with guns since Columbine, WHEN exactly is it the right time to start discussing gun control then if not now?

That's a topic for a separate thread.

 

[enosis_]

Genuinely curious what is going through somebody's mind when they do these kinds of things.

Probably a topic for another thread, but assume someone noticed very irregular behavior with this killer a few weeks ago. Is there an effective test to determine risk levels? I'm not sure what could be done by anyone outside of the family prior to a crime? I do hope this is a wake up call to parents in the same type situation as the slain mother...to seek help...and that those asked to help make an effort.

 

[Monsterboy]

Genuinely curious what is going through somebody's mind when they do these kinds of things.

I wish someday a guy like this is caught alive and taken to a lab and studied.

 

[nsaspook]

I would like to know what's the effect of FPS games on people with unstable personalities. I've watched people play these games endlessly with unease at the behaviour patterns they must be creating in people with little self-control.

http://www.psypost.org/2011/10/viol...er-video-games-emotionally-desensitizing-7523

 

[jedishrfu]

Probably a topic for another thread, but assume someone noticed very irregular behavior with this killer a few weeks ago. Is there an effective test to determine risk levels? I'm not sure what could be done by anyone outside of the family prior to a crime? I do hope this is a wake up call to parents in the same type situation as the slain mother...to seek help...and that those asked to help make an effort.

Until you're in a situation such as this you won't know. How many times have you heard someone utter a threat and because you thought you knew you ignored it as just talk, or you were somewhat afraid of the person but not enough to get the authorities involved so you just avoided them. People of this mindset are not stupid but they may be paranoid and will try to hide their actions telling reasonable sounding lies. This is how they can operate under the radar for so long and why we should always be vigilant.

What I fear now is the spread of this violence to other families where the teen children will begin to hate the world and want to do it even more harm because of all the pain, agony they see and feel at the loss of a brother or sister? And then there's the copycats who will view this as a way to get even with the world and who will act it out again.

 

[enosis_]

I would like to know what's the effect of FPS games on people with unstable personalities. I've watched people play these games endlessly with unease at the behaviour patterns they must be creating in people with little self-control.

http://www.psypost.org/2011/10/viol...er-video-games-emotionally-desensitizing-7523

It's strictly my opinion that violent video games might have a de-sensitizing effect. However, these killings were done in very close proximity - innocent children trapped in a small room and individually executed. The actual aiming (re-focusing) and pulling of the trigger 18 times would have taken (my guess) approximately 1 to 2 seconds each? Wouldn't this take some type of determination and committment to the act?

 

[enosis_]

Until you're in a situation such as this you won't know.

How true

 

[nsaspook]

It's strictly my opinion that violent video games might have a de-sensitizing effect. However, these killings were done in very close proximity - innocent children trapped in a small room and individually executed. The actual aiming (re-focusing) and pulling of the trigger 18 times would have taken (my guess) approximately 1 to 2 seconds each? Wouldn't this take some type of determination and committment to the act?

I think the virtual act of pulling the trigger in games makes the act of pulling the trigger in real-life a possibility for a person on the edge by removing the human reality of the target. How a sick person could objectify children is beyond my understanding but it's how recruits are trained to remove the inhibition on killing when not directly in a life and death situation. You block the reality by training away the emotion or empathy and focus only on the removal of the target as a thing but we also reinforce total control by strict obedience to orders by NCO's and officers to bring them back to normal emotional behaviour.

I'm not saying it's the reason this happened but excessive violent game use coupled with mental instability been a common thread in other school type killings .