Can I Succeed in Calculus Without Prior Advanced Math Courses?

[QuantumTheory]

Ok, let me explain. When I was in middle school, we did geometry. I didn't do good because it was't at my levle (I iddn't evne know how to do 'essenial' everyday math)

But then when I got into high school I took essenials. I didn't do good at first, but I decided I could do anything I put my mind to. So I told myself, "I will get an A, I can do this" and eventually, I did. Not only that, I was one of the top students in all the 6 periods!

Afte rthat, I told Algebra IA. The next year, I took algebra IB. Unfortunately, I never got as far as factoring. I had an average GPA of about 3.2-3.4, for awhile my GPA was 3.8. Never went below 3.0. However, my comprehension is horrible, and I had a very difficult time doing homework. It took me much longer than the other students.

At this point, I went to a charter school so I didn't have to do homework. We even had a halo 2 video game class! Heh. However, they did tell me it was accreddited, I.E the diploma is the same as a regular school Amazing, isn't it? Almost sounds too good to be true..

We moved, and then I went to another charter school. E-instute, both were on computers. E-instiute was 4 hours a day, no homework .. However, I did have homework twice. I had to write a 21 page report on numismatics (Yikes) and a 12 page essay on numismatic art.

Now I have my diploma. I have 2 questions:

1) Even though my school is 'accreditted' and it is listed by the charter chool assosiasion as so, how can I be sure? Is ther eany instances where people went on to colleg eonly to be disqualified because of the school they went to in high school?
2) Will I have a hard time in calculus? I haven't taken trig, pre calc, or caluclus. I have taken a good amount of geometry, algebra (However, not factoring, parabolas, or other high end algebra. I am good with exponets and solving algebriac equations)

3) I am going to college to (hopefully) study physics. I will start from the basics, and go up from there.

 

[matt grime]

Fortuntely we can see you are in Arizona, so we know that you're talking about the US system (GPA was a clue).

You might want to post this in the academic advice forum; it'll be moved there anyway, I' guess.

The short answer is that it all depends upon which college you're thinking of going to. You can make the courses as hard or as easy as you like. Some State universities will have catch up material for you to study. You should ask the admissions people: ONLY THEY KNOW.

(And it should be 'will I do well in calculus' not 'good': Mother Therese 'did good'; universities ought to care about standards of English, though I think they shrug their shoulders about it these days.)

 

[jsaxton]

Typically, one needs to meet a number of prerequisites to enter a class. In the case of Calculus, one will need to have taken a course in trig, at the very least. In addition, a course in precalculus may or may not be required. It seems that you have taken neither. You seem to have come from a non-traditional academic background. Thus, rather than just hopping into trig, if I were you, I'd contact your college and ask them if they have a placement exam of some sort. At this point in time I doubt you would do well in Calculus. In a couple semesters? Maybe.

 

[tmc]

without any kind of trig, precalc or algebra, yes, you will absolutely have a hard time in calculus. Not only that, but I don't see how they would let you take the course.

However, depending on the college, they might offer classes to bring you up to calc level, so you best bet is simply to ask them.

 

[chroot]

You're not prepared for calculus at all. You need to have a *solid* understanding of algebra and trig beforehand.

- Warren

 

[z-component]

I second what Warren has said. Knowing how to do exponents and solving for x is not enough to take calculus. Calculus is a rigorous course that can be taken only with a solid background in higher-level algebra and trig. Before you go to college you might want to consider taking a precalculus course or something to get you ready for calculus the first year you're in college.

Besides, advanced physics classes require a good understanding of the language of mathematics, so not only do you need to take these math courses for your major, but you need them to understand the physical world.

Have you considered taking a summer class?

Also:

At this point, I went to a charter school so I didn't have to do homework. We even had a halo 2 video game class! Heh. However, they did tell me it was accreddited, I.E the diploma is the same as a regular school Amazing, isn't it? Almost sounds too good to be true..

Actually, I think this is rather negative. If you plan to go to a 4-year standard college, homework will become your life. It appears you need to become adapted to doing homework every day. The fact that you didn't need to do HW in high school shows that your academic behavior needs refurbishing. Remember, it is possible to succeed in college, but you must be willing to DO YOUR HOMEWORK!

 

[chroot]

Well, in a sense QuantumTheory, you played Halo, didn't do any homework, but still got a diploma. Unfortunately, you failed to learn most of the material that most high-school students learn. It actually was, it seems, too good to be true.

- Warren

 

[mathwonk]

lets start with the basics: as andy dufresne said in shawshank redemption, "It's 'well', not 'good'; 'will I do well in calculus'".

now go from there.

 

[Buckshot23]

You may not even have enough to get into a college algebra course. My guess is you will need to take a preparatory algebra class let alone a calculus. My advice is study on your own before hand grab a schaums outlines college algebra book or the precalculus book and just do problem after problem. Then when it comes time to start your class take the placement test and take the highest math you can.

 

[mattmns]

You are absolutely not prepared if you know only High School Algebra 1. Your college should offer math classes that will be at your level, and will prepare you for calculus. I would guess that you would have to take AT LEAST 3 math classes (College Algebra, Trig, Advanced Algebra (Pre-Calc), before getting into Calculus, probably more. You will most likely need to take a placement exam, ask your college administrators about this, and the classes you will need to take.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Now I have my diploma. I have 2 questions:
1) Even though my school is 'accreditted' and it is listed by the charter chool assosiasion as so, how can I be sure? Is ther eany instances where people went on to colleg eonly to be disqualified because of the school they went to in high school?
2) Will I have a hard time in calculus? I haven't taken trig, pre calc, or caluclus. I have taken a good amount of geometry, algebra (However, not factoring, parabolas, or other high end algebra. I am good with exponets and solving algebriac equations)
3) I am going to college to (hopefully) study physics. I will start from the basics, and go up from there.

I was really surprised that you posted concerns over the quality of your high-school education. I was upset that a student would even have to worry about such a thing. I am not familiar with charter schools, so I did a little digging. I looked at E-Institute in particular. I did not find very good reviews on the school, unfortunately. I looked up the school's "report card" measuring how it compared with the state on standardized tests. I am not well-versed in reading these scores, but from what I can tell it seems that none of the students who tested in 2003-2004 met the mathematics standard on the AIMS (Arizona Instrument to Measure Standards) test. Overall, the school was categorized as

http://www.ade.az.gov/srcs/ReportCards/791172005.pdf
Underperforming - needs to meet state performance and state progress goals.
School receives total scale value placing it in the Underperforming classification. School performance was below the state baseline in 2000/2001 and did not make adequate growth, or the school started above the state baseline and did not make adequate growth during the past three years.

I don't imagine this would cause a problem with admission to college, but I can see how you would be concerned about how well your school prepared you for college-level work. You have to admit, four hours of instruction per day and no homework is pretty light compared to what most high-schools require.
Fortunately, if you go to a good college, they will test you and make sure you enter classes at the appropriate level. The idea is that they want you to succeed, and to put you into a class that you are not prepared for would be doing you a disservice. I have no doubt that you can do well in calculus if you enter with the necessary skills, but you're going to have to get used to doing homework if you want to get there.

 

[jhe1984]

"Will I do good in Calculus?"

If the choices are between calculus and grammar, I say calculus.

-- Sorry, I couldn't resist.

 

[Maxwell]

2) Will I have a hard time in calculus? I haven't taken trig, pre calc, or caluclus. I have taken a good amount of geometry, algebra (However, not factoring, parabolas, or other high end algebra. I am good with exponets and solving algebriac equations)

Sorry... but don't even TRY to take a Calculus course. You can't factor yet? Be sure you take an Algebra course before you move on to Pre-Calc.

 

[Nothing000]

All that you have to do is go to a community college and take College Algebra and then Trig and you should be ready. You might want to take "Intermediate" Algebra before you take college algebra. That is what I did. Before I attended a community college I could not even add fractions. I took Beginer and Intermediate Algebra, College Agebra, and Trig, and I am now in a University taking Calculus 2, and I made an A in Calculus 1. Also, while you are taking these classes at a community college you can take care of all of your general education classes. I did that too, and it sure is nice to only take science and math classes now.

 

[Nothing000]

And you can take all of those classes in one year. Just take one of the classes during the summer.

 

[G01]

LISTEN TO THESE PEOPLE HERE. They speak the truth. I know I'm being blunt but, with the math background your high school gave you you are NOT ready. Having taken calc based freshman physics recently I've seen people with bad math background come in saying they want to be string theorists, cosmologists, etc. and then fail freshman year physics because they don't understand calc I. If you take calc I concurrently with first year physics and you understand it you'll be fine, but you can't do that with what you know now.

They are also right when they say that homework will become you life. You spent 4 hours in class in high school. You will spend more than that on just homework in college.

Prepare yourself and you'll be fine. Remember though that layman's physics books are not true to what physics is really like. They teach you th concepts but the real skill of a physicist is to take these concepts and express them mathematically to describe the physical world.

Good luck to you. Prepare and you'll be fine.

 

[moose]

Are you sure that in math classes you understood what you did? From what you are saying, it seems as if you simply memorized how to do things, which would explain why it took you so long to do homework. Honestly, before you take Calculus, take PreCalculus. If you do horribly at the beginning of it, drop it and take "College Algebra" and then take precalc. Once you are able to get at least a solid B in precalculus, go on to calculus.

 

[QuantumTheory]

Are you sure that in math classes you understood what you did? From what you are saying, it seems as if you simply memorized how to do things, which would explain why it took you so long to do homework. Honestly, before you take Calculus, take PreCalculus. If you do horribly at the beginning of it, drop it and take "College Algebra" and then take precalc. Once you are able to get at least a solid B in precalculus, go on to calculus.

Yes, I understood it. Of course. The point of math is being able to understand WHY you do it, not how. Why do you people always doubt me, on this forum? People here degrade me alot, doubt me, say I'm not smart for my age, etc. I am getting tired of it.
For example, I understood why you have to balance an equation. So both sides are equal, or are 0. I haven't done math in along time now (especially algebra) so I have forgotten alot. But yeah, I did understand it.
NO, i have trouble with reading comprehension, that is why. And I am a slow worker. In fact, I got straight A's, and checked my homework at least twice. I was meticious.

 

[QuantumTheory]

Well, in a sense QuantumTheory, you played Halo, didn't do any homework, but still got a diploma. Unfortunately, you failed to learn most of the material that most high-school students learn. It actually was, it seems, too good to be true.

- Warren

I think 1) You're exaggerating things. and 2) No, it isn't true.

I didn't graduate from tha school. As I said, I went to a stricter charter school. This one was 4 hours, and there was no 'video games'. As I said, I DID 2 things of homework. a 21 page report on numismatics, and another report, as well as 3 art projects. But charter schoosl don't have homework, its just how it is. They said they were accredited, so I don't think ill have a hard time getting into a community college.

To the other people: I understand. I have 'calculus for dummies' and even that is difficult (It is technically not 'pure', either). I do need a solid background in trig and algebra. I don't understand 'theta' in trig, either. It's confusing.

 

[Maxwell]

Yes, I understood it. Of course. The point of math is being able to understand WHY you do it, not how. Why do you people always doubt me, on this forum? People here degrade me alot, doubt me, say I'm not smart for my age, etc. I am getting tired of it.
For example, I understood why you have to balance an equation. So both sides are equal, or are 0. I haven't done math in along time now (especially algebra) so I have forgotten alot. But yeah, I did understand it.
NO, i have trouble with reading comprehension, that is why. And I am a slow worker. In fact, I got straight A's, and checked my homework at least twice. I was meticious.

It's not that people doubt you or try to degrade you, man. Remember, you asked our advice, and we gave it to you. We want to help and give you the best advice we can.

From reading your comments, not only in from this thread, but from other posts in the past, I can tell that you are very enthusiastic about learning -- especially Calculus. That's a really good thing and you should use it as fuel to help you achieve your goals.

I'd certainly recommend that you take a college algebra course. In fact, like a few other people mentioned, take only that class. Learn the material very well and then sign up for a Pre-Calc class.

You have the passion -- now you need to do something about it. There will be A LOT of homework, but you can take an easy load for the first few semesters and get used to dealing with the work load. It's tough, but it's something that we all have learned to deal with. You will too.

Good luck, QT.

 

[G01]

Hes right. All we did was tell you the truth. 2 Reports &3 Art Projects over your whole tenure at that school is not much at all. Just know that there will be much more in college. No one is trying to degrade you here.

BTW, Theta is a greek letter used as a variable in trig to represent an angle.

 

[G01]

Also, I'm just wondering, the charter schools that you attended, Were they geared to a special kind of student like students interested in Art or English, or other non-mathmatical or scientific fields?

 

[QuantumTheory]

Also, I'm just wondering, the charter schools that you attended, Were they geared to a special kind of student like students interested in Art or English, or other non-mathmatical or scientific fields?

No. They did teach web design howver, and leadership, pretty interesting

 

[Zarathustra1]

You'll definitely want a bunch of algebra and trig before stepping into calculus. I suggest you get a college algebra class and then a precalculus class in your first two semesters while getting your lib ed out of the way.

I wouldn't sweat it too much if you have a lacking math background, because college does offer opportunities to catch up. I failed high school algebra and figured I'd avoid math like the devil the rest of my life, and basically had to start from scratch in college when I decided to do physics, and now I am getting some of the highest scores out of everyone in my physics and math classes.

The essential thing is to put in the hard work.

Good luck.

 

[Nothing000]

They said they were accredited, so I don't think ill have a hard time getting into a community college.

You will have no trouble at all getting into a community college. The only thing required for acceptance is either a High School Diploma or a GED.

 

[Nothing000]

Although having a solid understanding of algebra is the most important thing to have, I think that Trig is kind of underated. Whenever I started to learn trig most people said that it was a waiste of time to even take a trig class and that I would not use it very much. But I find myself using trig all the time, especially in my physics class. The cool part about trig is that there is not much to learn at all, and once you learn it it is SO EASY to do. So I would do exactly what everyone else is saying, take College Algebra, and really concentrate on that, and then take a Pre Calculus class, and you will learn all the trig you need in there.

 

[QuantumTheory]

Although having a solid understanding of algebra is the most important thing to have, I think that Trig is kind of underated. Whenever I started to learn trig most people said that it was a waiste of time to even take a trig class and that I would not use it very much. But I find myself using trig all the time, especially in my physics class. The cool part about trig is that there is not much to learn at all, and once you learn it it is SO EASY to do. So I would do exactly what everyone else is saying, take College Algebra, and really concentrate on that, and then take a Pre Calculus class, and you will learn all the trig you need in there.

Haha, easy? Not for me, heh. I remember SohCahToa,b ut that's it. I don't understand theta (the trig angel), I alawys get confused.! LOL

Of course its useful. Especially in police. I was in police explorers and they have to take trig classes for the physics of car crashes in accidents. Very, very useful. IN fact, trig is probably the most useful math there is, most particle.

 

[Manchot]

I think I'd have to second (or third, or fifteenth) the assertion that you should take College Algebra. It doesn't sound like your school finished what is in the typical Algebra I curriculum, so you are not ready to take calculus. (As others have echoed, this is not to disparage you: I'm just telling you what I think.)

 

[rho]

A bit off topic but what is actually in "college algebra" and "pre-calculus" ?

Is college algebra the same as our A-level, but without the differentiation and integration? (Things like partial fractions, vector algebra, complex numbers, all trig identities, basic matrices, etc), and is Pre-calculus a course like we would call mathematical analysis (turning vague arguments into rigorous mathematical proofs).Or am I well off?

 

[mathwonk]

after posts 18 and 19, I am tempted to say qt deserves no more help. he is hopeless. of course we have piled on a bit, so maybe he gets it, but can't take any more blunt talk. of course he asked for it, as he is clearly qualified at best for a remedial high school program of study. no one is saying qt is unintelligent. just that the "preparation" received was a disgrace and a fraud, essentially theft if there was any tuition or tax dollars involved. that is not qt's fault entirely, more the school's, but it is hard not to believe some self deception was also involved.

 

[Nothing000]

I agree, an education like that is a complete waiste of tax payers (or his parents) money. I went to an alternative school for a few years, and it was just like that. There was couches in every room, and we didn't do any work. All we did was play board games and pool (yes there was a pool table there). And everyone thought that this was so cool at the time (including me), but once high school was over with I sure wished that I had gotten a real education. Because I had to go to a community college to learn all the basic algebra. And now I am in my early twenties and am just in my first year at a university. I really should be graduating in about a year, that is if I would have just gone to a good old fashion high school where they actually make the kids work. And these kids in these schools of course want to be there, because they are too young to really realize the importance of education. It really is the parents fault for allowing their kids to go to such lousy "schools".

 

[moose]

Yes, I understood it. Of course. The point of math is being able to understand WHY you do it, not how. Why do you people always doubt me, on this forum? People here degrade me alot, doubt me, say I'm not smart for my age, etc. I am getting tired of it.
For example, I understood why you have to balance an equation. So both sides are equal, or are 0. I haven't done math in along time now (especially algebra) so I have forgotten alot. But yeah, I did understand it.
NO, i have trouble with reading comprehension, that is why. And I am a slow worker. In fact, I got straight A's, and checked my homework at least twice. I was meticious.

I never degraded you and never even implied it.

I was saying what I would say to ANYONE.

For example, I understood why you have to balance an equation. So both sides are equal, or are 0.

That's not what I meant by understanding math...

 

[moose]

To the other people: I understand. I have 'calculus for dummies' and even that is difficult (It is technically not 'pure', either). I do need a solid background in trig and algebra. I don't understand 'theta' in trig, either. It's confusing.

... Ok, the post before this you just said something which contradicts what you said here...

Anyway, you can substitute x for theta... it's just a variable...

 

[Zarathustra1]

A bit off topic but what is actually in "college algebra" and "pre-calculus" ?

Is college algebra the same as our A-level, but without the differentiation and integration? (Things like partial fractions, vector algebra, complex numbers, all trig identities, basic matrices, etc), and is Pre-calculus a course like we would call mathematical analysis (turning vague arguments into rigorous mathematical proofs).Or am I well off?

Well, my uni actually has two sets of "college algebra" courses: Beginning College Algebra I and II, and College Algebra I and II. There is also an "intermediate algebra" course which is the lowest level math course offered here, which I think is actually at the high school level (it might even be necessary for the OP to take such a class, depending on his algebra background).

Beginning College Algebra, in my uni, assumes some algebra skills but is still fairly basic. Then, College Algebra and Precalculus are basically the same level of math, both having a large amount of algebra content. The difference is that College Algebra has no trig at all and, I believe, a stronger emphasis on linear systems and matricies, whereas the Precalculus course touches up on those subjects much less but has strong trig content, basic vector operations, polar coordinates, and is basically designed to give you everything you need to take calculus. I would also imagine that precalculus is faster-paced. Generally, I think if you plan on taking calculus, you can probably ingore the College Algebra courses and take precalc instead, which is what I did.

It probably varies a little from college to college, but that's how they work here.

 

[G01]

QT, you have a treck ahead of you. Before you even begin to study physics and calc you need to give yourself a understanding of algebra, and this means much more than "solving for x" I believe anyone can do anything as long as they know where to start. Your starting point would be to replace the math you missed before taking calc. or physics.

Another thing you should consider, do you like math or are you just willing to put up with it to study physics. You must like it because it will be an integral part of your physics education even after your done with calc. (Once you take calc 2 you'll see the pun in the last sentence )