News Will the US use Nukes against Iran?

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Art said:
I presume you now concede this statement was incorrect?
Um, no. Why would you thnk that?

I have no idea what your point is here but if you are arguing about the number I quoted here's a reference.
My point is that your statement "Iraq's inventory of 72 missiles" is factually incorrect [1]. That, and you looked up the al Samud 2 drive, not the al Samuds.
 
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A

Art

crazycalhoun said:
Um, no. Why would you thnk that?
You claimed the Al-Samuds were exempt from 687 prohibitions. They clearly were not.

crazycalhoun said:
My point is that your statement "Iraq's inventory of 72 missiles" is factually incorrect [1]. That, and you looked up the al Samud 2 drive, not the al Samuds.
Still trying to wriggle your way out? :biggrin:
crazycalhoun said:
Then we're talking about the al Samuds, which are not covered under 687 prohibitions.
There was no Al-Samud 1, the program was cancelled in the development stage in the early 90's as they didn't work!! When you mentioned the Al-Samuds I presumed you were talking about a missile that actually existed. Then again maybe you weren't. :rolleyes:
 
Art said:
You claimed the Al-Samuds were exempt from 687 prohibitions. They clearly were not.
Al-Samud 2's aren't.

Still trying to wriggle your way out? :biggrin:
No, I don't think so.

There was no Al-Samud 1, the program was cancelled in the development stage in the early 90's as they didn't work!!
Um, you just made that up.
 
A

Art

crazycalhoun said:
Um, you just made that up.
The original Al Samud program was cancelled in 1993 due to flight instability. It was resurrected in 1995 with a new design by Maj. Gen. Ra’ad Jasim who was fired when it still didn't work in 1999. He was replaced by Brig. Gen. Dr. Muzhir Saba’ Sadiq al-Tamimi. Following continuing failures, on 15th June 2001 Muzhir’s request to replace the 500-mm diameter Al Samud with a 760-mm design, called the Al Samud II was agreed to. The first experimental test flight of Al Samud II occurred on 18th August 2001.

The first 10 Al Samud II ballistic missiles were delivered to the Iraqi Army in December 2001.
 
Art said:
The original Al Samud program was cancelled in 1993 due to flight instability.
Al Samud I was cancelled after its last flight test 12 Dec 2000. And they still had the drives from the static tests afterwards. The point is they weren't destroyed.
 
A

alexandra

Source of information about Iranian military capability/resources

I've noticed that there has been quite a bit of discussion about whether or not, and how effectively, Iran would be able to defend itself against an attack, or retaliate if attacked. I found a website that has information about things like this, though I couldn't judge how accurate this information might be. Also, not knowing much about weapons and stuff like that, I don't really know what a lot of this information means so can't summarise the implications - I thought I'd just refer those interested to the website so they could see if they can make any sense of it: the homepage is http://www.globalsecurity.org/index.html, and the URL providing information about Iran's military capabilities is http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/index.html
 
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Globalsecurity.org is a great source of generally very accurate info. The guy who runs it, John Pike I think his name is, is something of a security expert/specialist. Generally good objective data.
 
A

alexandra

An update on Iran

I just read this:
US backs first-strike attack plan

The US will not shy away from attacking regimes it considers hostile, or groups it believes have nuclear or chemical weapons, the White House has confirmed.

In the first restatement of national security strategy since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the US singles out Iran as the greatest single current danger.

The new policy backs the policy of pre-emptive war first issued in 2002, and criticised since the Iraq war.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4812562.stm
So, what do you think? I think the Bush administration is laying the groundwork. Oh dear, here we go again...

alex
 
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WW3 here we come..
 

vanesch

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Naah. Big talk, that's all...
 

selfAdjoint

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vanesch said:
Naah. Big talk, that's all...
I agree. The current effort is Iraq is about all we're up to.
 

BobG

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selfAdjoint said:
I agree. The current effort is Iraq is about all we're up to.
You certainly have an optimistic view of the sanity level within the US government today. I'm not sure that's warranted.

The new winning political strategy is to be the first to embrace insanity (House Panel Seeks Sanctions. Buried towards the end of the story is the 37-3 bi-partisan vote by House International Relations Committee to impose sanctions that go too far, even for the White House.

With the current tone, it seems as if one party proposes sanctions, the other will have to propose air strikes; if one party proposes air strikes, the other will have to propose a limited invasion (to control the Strait of Hormuz, of course); if one party proposes a limited invasion ..... and on and on.

We're still waiting for someone to come up with a sane and confident approach to the "new world" of post 9/11.
 

G01

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Man I hate talks about stuff like this it gets me all depressed. Nuclear war and then all the draft threads.....so depressing. IMO, I'm not as worried as many people here. We've been through worse.
 
D

dsky

Will Iran and other counties use the Nukes on this USA?
They should if this country continues to interfere with soverein nations,
But some should shake off the high from their own fat
 
A

Art

Iran is raising the stakes ahead of the security council meeting


Associated Press
Update 6: Iran: Just-Tested Missile Can Avoid Radar
By ALI AKBAR DAREINI , 03.31.2006, 12:26 PM

Iran successfully test-fired a missile that can avoid radar and hit several targets simultaneously using multiple warheads, the military said Friday.

Gen. Hossein Salami, the air force chief of the elite Revolutionary Guards, did not specify the missile's range, saying it depends on the weight of its warheads.

But state-run television described the weapon as "ballistic" - suggesting it's of comparable range to Iran's existing ballistic rocket, which can travel 1,250 miles and reach arch-foe Israel and U.S. bases in the Middle East.

"Today, a remarkable goal of the Islamic Republic of Iran's defense forces was realized with the successful test-firing of a new missile with greater technical and tactical capabilities than those previously produced," Salami said on state-run television.

It showed a clip of the launch of what it called the Fajr-3, with "fajr" meaning "victory" in Farsi.

"It can avoid anti-missile missiles and strike the target," Salami said.

He said the missile would carry a multiple warhead, and each warhead would be capable of hitting its target precisely.
http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/2006/03/31/ap2637624.html [Broken]

Unless one side or the other begins to compromise this will all end in tears I fear.
 
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All options regarding this issue are terrible. Will the civilized world tolerate a fanatical culture with a penchant for martyrdom and led by a neo-Nazi nut to posses nuclear weapons? How will the subsequent and very high risk of a nuclear attack on Israel be balanced out?

But then, what options are available? With American military power already stretched thin, and Europe consumed with ideology, what policy options are available?

One fancies the new century will feature a very different landscape than the one that preceded it. History is not over, after all; far from it.

The sooner the US realizes its interests and values coincide with the nations of east rather than Socialist Europe, the greater the chances of successfully facing the challenge of Islam and ensuring the continued march of progress.
 
A

alexandra

Update on Pentagon's plans re-Iran?

As per subject line:

Pentagon plans record-breaking explosion in Nevada desert

Julian Borger in Washington
Saturday April 1, 2006
The Guardian


The Pentagon is preparing to set off a record-breaking bang, detonating 635 tonnes of high explosives and sending a mushroom cloud into the sky over the Nevada desert. The blast, on June 2, codenamed Divine Strake, is likely to be the biggest controlled conventional explosion in military history, experts said, and is designed to test the impact of bunker-busting bombs aimed at underground targets.

The blast comes at a time of rising tension with Iran over its nuclear programme. The US has refused to rule out military action and is considering the feasibility of destroying underground warhead development sites Iran is alleged to have built.


More: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1744506,00.html
I guess it's too optimistic to hope that this was an April Fool's joke report?
 

russ_watters

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What's the big deal? It sounds like it is just a test of their computer modeling techniques, since the actual explosives used can't be used in a real weapon anyway.

The military tests weapons all the time, alexandra.
 

BobG

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Art said:
Iran is raising the stakes ahead of the security council meeting


http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/2006/03/31/ap2637624.html [Broken]

Unless one side or the other begins to compromise this will all end in tears I fear.
It would be hard to assess the reliability of Iran's reports about its missile test. In the past, their accounts have always reported success regardless of the outcome. If the account of the latest test were accurate, then it would be an incredible leap for Iran's missile technology. I'm not sure it's completely beyond the realm of possibility, but it's certainly unlikely.

Iranian missiles
 
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SOS2008

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Iran has wanted to normalize relations with the U.S. But we have a president (Bush) who is a hard-liner who has planned to preemptively change the Middle East. Our president is famous for spin and rhetoric (oh yes, and lies). So now Iran has a president (Ahmadinejad) who has been concerned about a preemptive attack, and on occasion uses rhetoric to gain support from his base.

Israel is very capable of defending itself, and it's high time the U.S. stops taking the Zionist's side. Also, those who promote eradication of all Infidels are no larger in number than those who promote a crusade.

Obviously nuclear proliferation is not preferable, but I am less worried about Iran joining the likes of N.Korea and a slew of countries that have nukes than I worry about:

  • Starting another war of attrition that will be far more costly than Iraq, both in blood and treasure (a draft would be likely, and will China/Japan continue to absorb our debt?)
  • Starting a war that would cause oil prices to go even higher
  • Iran starting a trend of wanting payment in other currencies, most notably Euro and Yen
  • Further alienation from the rest of the world
The U.S. has practiced plenty of aggressive behavior and rhetoric. Maybe it's time to try diplomacy and sincerity toward peace.
 
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Art

BobG said:
It would be hard to assess the reliability of Iran's reports about its missile test. In the past, their accounts have always reported success regardless of the outcome. If the account of the latest test were accurate, then it would be an incredible leap for Iran's missile technology. I'm not sure it's completely beyond the realm of possibility, but it's certainly unlikely.

Iranian missiles
A valid point however they seem to be getting serious assistance in missile technology. They are now claiming to have also successfully tested the world's fastest underwater missile capable of taking out submarines and large warships.

Iran test fires 'world's fastest' underwater missile
233mph 'Whale'

Iran last Friday test fired what it claims is the world's fastest underwater missile - reported to have a top speed of 360km/h (233mph), according to the BBC.

Special Republican guard troops fired the weapon - dubbed "Hoot" or Whale - and successfully destroyed a derelict ship in the Gulf as part of Iran's "Holy Prophet" war games. Iranian TV interrupted normal broadcasts to show footage of the test.
As SOS said let's hope diplomacy prevails this time.
 
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I have serious reserves that Iran managed to make a torpedo that is faster than anything the United States has. If anyone, I would expect that from the Russians ten+ years ago, not the Iranians. Sounds like BS propoganda to me.
 
It looks like Iran is being deliberatly provocative. And there is no way they develloped the iranian Shkval equivalent without a lot of help from the russians.
 

russ_watters

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cyrusabdollahi said:
I have serious reserves that Iran managed to make a torpedo that is faster than anything the United States has. If anyone, I would expect that from the Russians ten+ years ago, not the Iranians. Sounds like BS propoganda to me.
It appears to me to be a copy of a Russian idea of a rocket-propelled torpedo. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were able to launch it and achieve 200+mph speeds, but I doubt highly that the'll be able to make a deployable torpedo/undersea missile with it.

I haven't heard that the US is researching the idea, but frankly, our submarines are so far ahead of anyone else's that our torpedo technology is practically irrelevant.
 

russ_watters

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SOS2008 said:
Iran has wanted to normalize relations with the U.S. But we have a president (Bush) who is a hard-liner who has planned to preemptively change the Middle East. Our president is famous for spin and rhetoric (oh yes, and lies). So now Iran has a president (Ahmadinejad) who has been concerned about a preemptive attack, and on occasion uses rhetoric to gain support from his base.

Israel is very capable of defending itself, and it's high time the U.S. stops taking the Zionist's side. Also, those who promote eradication of all Infidels are no larger in number than those who promote a crusade....

The U.S. has practiced plenty of aggressive behavior and rhetoric. Maybe it's time to try diplomacy and sincerity toward peace.
There are two sides to that story, of course:

The US has its favorites (as if no one else does? :rolleyes: ), but the US has also done more than the rest of the world combined to work for peace in the Israel/Palestine area. When was the last time the French, for example, hosted a summit or came up with a peace plan for the region? Both Clinton and Bush have had real and viable peace plans and both achieved some progress. Though Clinton's was less successful, he also had no starting point to work from, making his progress more notable. The famous Rabin/Arafat handshake and signing of a declaration of principles may not seem like much in the practical sense, but just getting those two to sit in the same room and talk - much less sign the same document - was a major achievement.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/13/newsid_3053000/3053733.stm

Regarding our support for Israel - it is not as unequivocable as people like to believe. Bush in particular has been critical of Israel for actions he considers to be unproductive to the peace process:
Israel must remove unauthorized outposts and stop settlement expansion. The barrier being erected by Israel as a part of its security effort must be a security, rather than political, barrier. And its route should take into account, consistent with security needs, its impact on Palestinians not engaged in terrorist activities. As we make progress toward security, and in accordance with the road map, Israeli forces should withdraw to their positions on September the 28th, 2000.
http://www.bnainoach.com/tiki-index.php?page=PRESIDENT BUSH BETRAYS ISRAEL SPEECH

So I think it is unreasonable to say that the US hasn't put a serious effort into a diplomatic solution - in fact, the US is the only 3rd party to have done just that.
 

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