[Suggestion] PF Awards, are they unfair?

[Kalouste]

I notice that in PF Forums people vote in a poll to tell the community who they think that should win. Well, here's the problem:

Borda counting

I have here an excellent example, but it's written in portuguese and I have no pacience to translate it. Anyway here's a link that has a cool example about Borda Counting:

http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?messageID=1478249"

And if you want to know more about how fair is Borda Counting:

Basic Geometry of Voting, Donald Saari (from Northwestern University), 1995

This books reveals the teorethical superiority of Borda Counting. And if you like math like I do, you'll love this system. The problem is that politicians don't understand, so they don't love this system. How can we convince politicians that this ir ironically much more fair than the actual system («one man, one vote»)? I don't know the answer. Do you?

Aproaches for making Borda Counting automatic

The poll only allows 3 candidates (10 options in fact...3!=6 but 4!=24). There are 2 ways:

- allow only 3 candidates to each category (uses the poll);
- allow n candidates (uses programming skills).

Allowing n candidates

By making a javascript/flash application that allows people to vote in n candidates, and by dealing with server scripting(databases, php, asp+, etc.)...

Resource: http://www.pbs.org/teachersource/mathline/concepts/voting/activity1.shtm

 

[Astronuc]

Borda counting/voting is a method my previous company used when polling participants regarding topics of interest for technical seminars. We had to select 6 out of 12-15 topics, and there were about 40-50 voting organizations. Often the topic of most interest (or top 2) was common to a majority, and topics of lesser common interest were generally of specific interest to a one or a few voters.

However, I don't know if the polling module at PF would support Borda counting.

 

[Kalouste]

It is supported if and only if 3 candidates are considered. Let's say we have 3 candidates, A, B, and C. The poll would look like this:


A>B>C;
C>B>A;
B>C>A;
B>A>C;
C>A>B;
A>C>B;


3! combinations...but the problem is the following: the poll only allows 10 options (I think). So 4! would be too much for PF Forums to Handle (4 candidates).

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

There was some talk a while back of not having public polls which might influence decision (it influenced mine). If the voting was performed by PM, that would eliminate the candidate restrictions.

 

[arildno]

Why is it such a bad thing that your vote might be "influenced" by others' votes&reasons for their voting??

Is it less objective to make your decision in part on basis on others' cogent arguments than to vote merely on the basis of your own personal fancies and state of (mis-)information?


I'm sorry, I just don't get this..

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

It is more honest to vote for the person I automatically think deserves it than to base my decision on how well they or others are doing in the poll.

 

[SpaceTiger]

In my mind, private voting would partially defeat the purpose of the awards. If it were done that way, we would just see a list of nominees and eventual winners, but there would be no impetus for people to step in and voice their appreciation for what the nominees (or, perhaps, overlooked folks) have done for them. Posts like that are, I would say, more important than the award itself. Although private voting might decide some of the closer races more fairly, it would also deprive the non-winners of some of the praise they deserve.

A downside, of course, is that some folks don't get many votes and that can be a bit humiliating. For me, though, it would just be an honor to be nominated.

 

[Evo]

I think when one person has a large lead, others may not bother voting thinking that their vote for a different candidate won't matter, when in fact there might be enough people thinking the same way and the outcome could have been totally diffferent.

I think we shouldn't post the votes until after the voting is final.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

I think when one person has a large lead, others may not bother voting thinking that their vote for a different candidate won't matter, when in fact there might be enough people thinking the same way and the outcome could have been totally diffferent.
I think we shouldn't post the votes until after the voting is final.

Hmmm. This is some kind of trick. Evo never agrees with me.

I'm onto you...

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

In my mind, private voting would partially defeat the purpose of the awards. If it were done that way, we would just see a list of nominees and eventual winners, but there would be no impetus for people to step in and voice their appreciation for what the nominees (or, perhaps, overlooked folks) have done for them. Posts like that are, I would say, more important than the award itself. Although private voting might decide some of the closer races more fairly, it would also deprive the non-winners of some of the praise they deserve.

I don't see why. The nominees would still have to be posted, and people can still show their appreciation. Heck, they could even say who they voted for. But most people won't, so even those few who can be bothered to note down who everyone said they voted for won't actually know who's winning.

 

[SpaceTiger]

I don't see why. The nominees would still have to be posted, and people can still show their appreciation. Heck, they could even say who they voted for. But most people won't, so even those few who can be bothered to note down who everyone said they voted for won't actually know who's winning.

If it were only the tallies that were hidden, but the rest of the format were the same, then most of my objections wouldn't apply. I do think, however, that there should still be a thread for each category in which people are encouraged to voice their appreciation. It would be a shame if the whole process became focused on the "badge".

 

[Evo]

If it were only the tallies that were hidden, but the rest of the format were the same, then most of my objections wouldn't apply. I do think, however, that there should still be a thread for each category in which people are encouraged to voice their appreciation. It would be a shame if the whole process became focused on the "badge".

Only the tallies would be hidden.

 

[Moonbear]

I think when one person has a large lead, others may not bother voting thinking that their vote for a different candidate won't matter, when in fact there might be enough people thinking the same way and the outcome could have been totally diffferent.
I think we shouldn't post the votes until after the voting is final.

The technology guru voting this year is a good example. We had a 3-way tie for a while, and it seemed the opposite was the problem...because it was so close, nobody wanted the responsibility of casting the deciding vote, so it stayed tied for quite some time. Once the tie was broken, the votes completely changed course!

I don't know why people let the other votes influence them in something like this. Who wins isn't as important as voicing your appreciation for whichever candidates have helped you most. It's not like voting for a political office where you might decide instead of voting for your candidate who is clearly behind in the polls, you'll cast a vote for your next favorite to keep your least favorite out of office.

 

[FredGarvin]

Why are people taking the guru votes so seriously? Geeze-o-petes. Space Tiger summed the whole thing up very well.

...there would be no impetus for people to step in and voice their appreciation for what the nominees (or, perhaps, overlooked folks) have done for them. Posts like that are, I would say, more important than the award itself.

 

[Gale]

i think the way we do it is fine. Or maybe, if people could vote for more than one person. Then if you lean strongly with one person, you ONLY vote for them, if you like two, you vote for both, and then your votes sets those two apart from the rest, and if you like all but one or two choices, you could express that with your votes too. But i like seeing the polls as we go. And i like discussing people and appreciating them in the threads too.

 

[Danger]

I just kinda like the suspense of not knowing the outcome ahead of time. The system as it stands seems okay, though.

 

[Integral]

Come on guys, its just all good fun... Do you really think Danger is the funniest guy on the site? :zzz:

 

[Moonbear]

Come on guys, its just all good fun... Do you really think Danger is the funniest guy on the site? :zzz:

He's just the one the most people wanted to see thrown in a volcano.

 

[Lisa!]

Come on guys, its just all good fun... Do you really think Danger is the funniest guy on the site? :zzz:

He really looks funny with his new ribbon!

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I'd really have to agree that discussing this in such depth is kind of silly.
Personally, as was mention in the other thread by someone else, I just voted without clicking the little link that shows the poll results and before I read any of the comments.
Fairness isn't exactly an issue since this is all just for fun. No one is rigging the process and I doubt many people if anyone are using multiple user names.

 

[cscott]

I agree with Fred on this--we really shouldn't overthink these awards. Our community is pretty close-knit and the discussion of nominee's is probably most rewarding.

An honest concern, though

 

[mathwonk]

Forgive me, but I do not know what the awards are. how many are there? how are they described? when/how does one vote? who is eligible? I think awards are fun. I will volunteer for most humorless, and oldest, and runnerup chump threadkiller.

 

[arildno]

Forgive me, but I do not know what the awards are. how many are there? how are they described? when/how does one vote? who is eligible? I think awards are fun. I will volunteer for most humorless, and oldest, and runnerup chump threadkiller.

You became the runner up math guru. (matt grime became the guru this year as he was last year)

 

[mathwonk]

wow! that is really flattering. thank you for telling me! that is an honor and a pleasure..

 

[quantumdude]

The discussions were archived and sit at the top of the Feedback and Announcements Forum.

Link: https://www.physicsforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=167

 

[Lisa!]

Forgive me, but I do not know what the awards are. how many are there? how are they described? when/how does one vote? who is eligible? I think awards are fun. I will volunteer for most humorless, and oldest, and runnerup chump threadkiller.

You were also nominated for community spirit!

PS You're 1 of those a few people who I really enjoy reading their posts. Is there any award for that?

 

[mathwonk]

Gee. Thank you very much, Lisa. This really makes me feel more a part of the community. There is nothing like an expression of appreciation. I am very grateful. I have always loved math and have learned a little along the way, but much less than I hoped to (and still hope to), and I like to share it. I also have a long life experience in academia, teaching, hiring, and research, including highs and lows, and am willing to share that also to encourage young people.

I unfortunately am often frustrated with the challenge of having wisdom heard over nonsense, and let that show, but maybe I can learn to temper that some. My main goal as a teacher is actually to discuss math in an atmosphere free of the sort of competition and sneering one upmanship that so dominated my education, but those habits die hard. If we want to evolve, at some point we need to trade in a desire for pats on the back, for a desire to understand and to instruct. We also need to recognize truth whenever and wherever we find it, and be open to it.

And to pay compliments. Thanks again.

Merry xmas.

 

[Chronos]

Bah, the voting thing is just fun. We all have a voice here. This is not worth arguing over. Just getting nominated is honor enough.

 

[quantumdude]

This really makes me feel more a part of the community. There is nothing like an expression of appreciation.

As has been said a number of times, these "guru" awards are for fun on Member's Day (near the end of each year). The more serious recognitions are the 3 medals we bestow, of which you currently bear 2.

But if you want to feel even more a part of the community you could make a donation and get the PF Contributor Medal. Then you'd have all 3. Ah, the hat trick!

 

[Lisa!]

Gee. Thank you very much, Lisa. This really makes me feel more a part of the community. There is nothing like an expression of appreciation. I am very grateful. I have always loved math and have learned a little along the way, but much less than I hoped to (and still hope to), and I like to share it. I also have a long life experience in academia, teaching, hiring, and research, including highs and lows, and am willing to share that also to encourage young people.
I unfortunately am often frustrated with the challenge of having wisdom heard over nonsense, and let that show, but maybe I can learn to temper that some. My main goal as a teacher is actually to discuss math in an atmosphere free of the sort of competition and sneering one upmanship that so dominated my education, but those habits die hard. If we want to evolve, at some point we need to trade in a desire for pats on the back, for a desire to understand and to instruct. We also need to recognize truth whenever and wherever we find it, and be open to it.
And to pay compliments. Thanks again.
Merry xmas.

Thank you very much and happy new year!

 

[Chronos]

It makes my day to hear one curious human say, "Ok, now I get it..." That means more to me than all the medals and awards. I think most medalists would agree... being a good teacher is the greatest reward.

 

[marlon]

It makes my day to hear one curious human say, "Ok, now I get it..." That means more to me than all the medals and awards. I think most medalists would agree... being a good teacher is the greatest reward.

I completely agree. Being a good teacher really requires (apart the obvious knowledge on one's subject) great skill and talent. Good teachers are, just like genuinly good actors, very rare in this world.

marlon

 

[Chronos]

Good for you, marlon, you are very deserving. You have been a very good teacher, and patient. I have learned much from you. You pushed me to the next level in mathematics. I am forever in your debt.

 

[marlon]

Good for you, marlon, you are very deserving. You have been a very good teacher, and patient. I have learned much from you. You pushed me to the next level in mathematics. I am forever in your debt.

Thanks for these nice complements. I really appreciate them.

regards
marlon

 

[franznietzsche]

The technology guru voting this year is a good example. We had a 3-way tie for a while, and it seemed the opposite was the problem...because it was so close, nobody wanted the responsibility of casting the deciding vote, so it stayed tied for quite some time. Once the tie was broken, the votes completely changed course!
I don't know why people let the other votes influence them in something like this. Who wins isn't as important as voicing your appreciation for whichever candidates have helped you most. It's not like voting for a political office where you might decide instead of voting for your candidate who is clearly behind in the polls, you'll cast a vote for your next favorite to keep your least favorite out of office.

While I agree with this, I also agree with SpaceTiger's concerns about restricting it just to a list of nominees followed by a winning announcement. Displaying the results as they play out I think encourages people to post with stories of appreciation of those they think deserve it most. I think that in most cases this is worth the downsides of having the poll results displayed.

A thought: Maybe it would be best to display delayed poll results, make them be a day behind the actual votes. This I think would help eliminate what happened in the tech guru vote, but also address SpaceTiger's concerns. On the other hand, i don't know if this is possible with the PF polling system.

 

[Moonbear]

Displaying the results as they play out I think encourages people to post with stories of appreciation of those they think deserve it most.

But that's a big part of the reason for the voting in the first place, to express appreciation for all the nominees.