Chocolate milk: does it keep longer than regular milk?

[Schrodinger's Dog]

The higher levels of Sugar in chocolate milk, will this mean that it keeps longer? Also the eternal Chocolate vs no chocolate issue? Should we make value judgements based on the consumption of chocolate even in less obvious forms?

 

[DaveC426913]

The higher levels of Sugar in chocolate milk, will this mean that it keeps longer?

Sounds like someone needs to do a controlled experiment and get back to us!

(My vote: no. Sugar acts as a dessicant. But if there's more than enough moisture present, it won't deter bacteria).

Also the eternal Chocolate vs no chocolate issue? Should we make value judgements based on the consumption of chocolate even in less obvious forms?

Chocolate is the Food of the Gods. Though it is pretty nasty to sneak it into an otherwise very healthy food.

 

[chroot]

Milk is not a "very healthy food," by any stretch of the imagination.

- Warren

 

[DaveC426913]

Milk is not a "very healthy food," by any stretch of the imagination.
Yes, it is
1] Certainly compared to many other alternatives within easy reach of most people who don't look after their diet well.
2] It is not the miracle food it has often made out to be, and it does have its flaws, but it is by-and-large, quite healthy.

 

[chroot]

1) It's full of sugar and fat. Whole milk has more calories than soda.
2) It's full of substances which irritate many people's digestive systems. Many people are outright allergic to it.
3) Most milk is full of estrogenic hormones.

Guess what healthy alternative is available to anyone who has access to milk products? Water.

- Warren

 

[The_Professional]

I like my cereal with milk. Considering the alternative organic milk I don't think it would taste as good as non-fat or regular milk.

 

[DaveC426913]

1) It's full of sugar and fat. Whole milk has more calories than soda.
2) It's full of substances which irritate many people's digestive systems. Many people are outright allergic to it.
3) Most milk is full of estrogenic hormones.

Guess what healthy alternative is available to anyone who has access to milk products? Water.

- Warren

The idea behind good eating is to
1] maximize nutrient intake per calorie
2] maximize "fullness" so that further, unecessary calorie intake is discouraged.

Sugar and fat are not, in-and-of-themselves, bad. They are bad when they provide empty calories (i.e. when there is no nutritive value along with them.) Milk is pretty good, nutrient-wise. It is also filling, which helps discourage excessive calorie intake (eating).

A piece of fruit may have as much sugar in it as a candy bar. But the piece of fruit easily outstrips the candy on points one and two.

Water is not all that healthy in this sense. It provides virtually no *nutritive* value, and is not particularly filling, as it does not quench the appetite.

 

[chroot]

I'm aware that sugar and fat are not "bad," they are, of course, required nutrients.

Unfortunately, what I've seen is that is ignorant parents demand that soda machines be removed from schools, only to be replaced with dairy drinks with even more calories and more fat. Sure, your kid is getting calcium and vitamin D, but he/she is also becoming even more obese.

Even more laughable is the "Milk Your Diet" campaign, which clearly states that drinking milk, cutting calories, and exercising can lead to weight loss. Duh! Drinking milk has nothing to do with it. The reason most people think milk is good for you is simply because they've bought into the decades-long marketing campaigns that simply asserted milk is good for you.

Considering the allergen and hormone content of most milk, I'd say fruit juice is a much, much healthier beverage. Also, when presented with patients complaining of almost any digestive distress, gastroenterologists routinely encourage the reduction of dairy consumption. In my opinion, there's no reason why anyone should or would even want to drink milk.

- Warren

 

[moose]

Milk is not healthy for humans. Maybe *parts* of milk are healthy, but there are several chemicals in milk which humans should not drink...

 

[Moonbear]

Well, anything that someone is allergic to is unhealthy for them. That doesn't make it unhealthy for everyone.

And just how estrogenic do you really think milk is? Men produce much more of their own estrogens than are found in a consumable amount of cow's milk.

Anything consumed in excess is going to lead to weight gain; it doesn't make it inherently unhealthy. Soda has no nutritive value, while an equal number of calories of milk has substantial nutritive value, especially for active children who burn a lot of calories. Inactivity of course is not something to blame on milk either. Of course, I'm just talking about plain, ordinary milk, not those higher fat, higher sugar yogurt-type drinks that only pose as health-foods. Actually, most fruit juices on the market are as bad, or worse than soda as a beverage too. Too many of them have sugar added, have the actual fruit juice diluted, and contain more calories than a can of soda. Pure, unsweetened fruit juice is fine...it's a challenge to find anything other than orange or grapefruit juice to fit that description though.

As for the actual thread topic, it's the sugars in milk that feed the bacteria to allow it to spoil, so I don't understand the logic that more sugar in chocolate milk would have any effect on its rate of spoilage. Personally, I don't like chocolate milk. I like plain, whole, very cold milk. Chocolate is for the cake I have with it.

 

[Orefa]

I don't think the relative sugar content of chocolate milk compared to milk is very important here. Both are already sufficient to support bacterial growth and spoilage. Adding more sugar just provides more nutrients so that once it spoils, the sweeter of the two can continue to spoil longer and support larger colonies. What matters the most is the initial level of bacterial contamination and the storage temperature. Adding a chocolate mix can intoduce a new source of bacteria if it is done after pasteurization instead of before, but otherwise I would expect both to be comparable. I'll have to remember to check expiration dates of both products when I visit the grocery store to test my hypothesis against commercial data.

 

[Azael]

Even more laughable is the "Milk Your Diet" campaign, which clearly states that drinking milk, cutting calories, and exercising can lead to weight loss. Duh! Drinking milk has nothing to do with it. The reason most people think milk is good for you is simply because they've bought into the decades-long marketing campaigns that simply asserted milk is good for you.

Considering the allergen and hormone content of most milk, I'd say fruit juice is a much, much healthier beverage. Also, when presented with patients complaining of almost any digestive distress, gastroenterologists routinely encourage the reduction of dairy consumption. In my opinion, there's no reason why anyone should or would even want to drink milk.

- Warren

acctualy calcium does help with fatloss
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=15090625&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

Notice this(I haven't read the whole thing though, only abstract).

DISCUSSION: Increasing dietary calcium significantly augmented weight and fat loss secondary to caloric restriction and increased the percentage of fat lost from the trunk region, whereas dairy products exerted a substantially greater effect.

Milk is also one of the best natural source of protein second only to eggs. Lactose even though a sugar has a fairly low gi and milk has lots of micronutrients.

If not lactose intolerant I don't se any reason to avoid milk

 

[Orefa]

Dairy products contains hormonal and antibiotic residues. So does meat and chicken. Fish contains mercury. Grains, fruits and vegetables contain pesticides. I play it safe, I only eat chocolate.

 

[DaveC426913]

Unfortunately, what I've seen is that is ignorant parents demand that soda machines be removed from schools, only to be replaced with dairy drinks with even more calories and more fat. Sure, your kid is getting calcium and vitamin D, but he/she is also becoming even more obese.

Yes but,
1] ignorant parents don't make for labeling a good food bad
2]again, soda is completely empty calories, milk gives nutrition and fills you up

The reason most people think milk is good for you is simply because they've bought into the decades-long marketing campaigns that simply asserted milk is good for you.

Agreed. Not refuting that for a second. But that doesn't mean it's NOT good for you, it just means they oversold it. You're swinging the other way, underselling it.

...I'd say fruit juice is a much, much healthier beverage. In my opinion, there's no reason why anyone should or would even want to drink milk.
- Warren[/QUOTE]

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-B00001-01c2019.html
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-B00001-01c20W5.html
This fruit juice has
20% more calories,
350% more carbs,
only 1/4 of the protein
and only 4/5 of the mineral nutrients
as milk.

Milk is a complex sugar (lactose) whereas juice is composed of simple sugars (fructose), very easliy digested and converted to fat. Additionally, the fat content of milk helps slow digestion, which discourages absorption of calories. It's lower Glycemic Index is great for not just us Diabetics, but for a Diabetic-susceptible population.

 

[honestrosewater]

Pure, unsweetened fruit juice is fine...it's a challenge to find anything other than orange or grapefruit juice to fit that description though.

Juicy Juice. They're from concentrate, if it matters. Their calorie content is about the same as 1% and 2% milk. I don't drink fruit juice very often, but they're my favorite (other than fresh). Though if you're already naturally sweet like me you might want to water them down a bit.

Flavors: Strawberry Banana, Watermelon, Apple, Apple Grape, Berry, Cherry, Cranberry Apple, Grape, Kiwi Strawberry, Orange Tangerine, Punch, Tropical, White Grape, Peach, and Mango.

 

[Moonbear]

Juicy Juice. They're from concentrate, if it matters. Their calorie content is about the same as 1% and 2% milk. I don't drink fruit juice very often, but they're my favorite (other than fresh). Though if you're already naturally sweet like me you might want to water them down a bit.

Flavors: Strawberry Banana, Watermelon, Apple, Apple Grape, Berry, Cherry, Cranberry Apple, Grape, Kiwi Strawberry, Orange Tangerine, Punch, Tropical, White Grape, Peach, and Mango.

Ick! Juicy Juice is like pure sugar to me!

Anyway, for fun, how about a label comparison:
Juicy Juice (I picked cranberry apple, just because it sounded good to me):
http://www.dietfacts.com/html/items/35594.htm

1% milk fortified with vitamin A:
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-B00001-01c201C.html

Whole milk (3.25%):
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-B00001-01c2017.html

And for kicks, the only site I could find with any matching serving size information on Coca-cola (most that I found call 1 serving whatever the size of the container is, so don't match the 1 cup (8 oz) servings of the other beverages listed here):
http://www.calorieking.com/foods/food/carbs-calories-in-coca-cola-sodas-soft-drinks-coca-cola-coke-classic_Y2lkPTE1NiZiaWQ9MjI0JmZpZD0xMDc4NTEmZWlkPTIzNzcxNTM5JnBvcz0xJnBhcj0ma2V5PWNvY2EtY29sYQ.html

(no matter what size Coke is served in, it has no vitamins listed )

So, if you're on a liquid diet, you might want to have milk at some meals and juice at others to balance out the vitamins.

 

[Integral]

My experiance.
While in the Navy, we would have white milk initially, but after several weeks at sea, all that would be available was chocolate. I always thought that the chocolate just covered the taste of souring milk.

Wasn't this thread supposed to be about the viability of choclate vs White, not the health issues surrounding milk?

 

[tribdog]

That's why I drink a cup of my own urine every morning.

 

[honestrosewater]

Ick! Juicy Juice is like pure sugar to me!

Yeah, I like sweet things, and it's even a bit sweet for me. But watering them down works for me. I think they use mostly apple or grape juice in their mixes (as bases); maybe that's it.

 

[tribdog]

I bought a juicer once cause it looked so good on the infomercial. I was juicing everything and it all tasted like crap. anything green really ruined the flavor. The fruit juices were almost drinkable, but the vegetable juices all sucked. And I like vegetables.

 

[Moonbear]

Yeah, I like sweet things, and it's even a bit sweet for me. But watering them down works for me. I think they use mostly apple or grape juice in their mixes (as bases); maybe that's it.

I think that's the big problem with a lot of those juices that claim to be 100% juice...they're mostly apple or grape juice, both of which are very high in sugar (I don't like either one because of that), not actually 100% of the juice on the label. It's rather deceptive labeling in my opinion, since you have to read pretty closely to realize your mostly getting grape juice, not whatever it is you think you're buying.

Oh, right, yeah, chocolate vs regular milk. Well, when I was in the first grade, I brought in my 10 cents and got chocolate milk with my lunch one day, drank it, threw up, and never drank chocolate milk again. I'll never know if the flavor of the chocolate milk made me sick or something else, but I've never ever been able to drink chocolate milk since.

 

[honestrosewater]

Hey, isn't cocoa acidic? Could that lower the pH enough to make it less comfy for bacteria? Dunno, just brainstorming.

Oh, probably not anyway.

"Only about 35 percent of cocoa powder is naturally soluble, so keeping those particles in suspension is a delicate balance between the milk protein, the carrageenan and other factors like heat and pH," says Leanna DeMuijnck, product service and development manager at ADM Cocoa, Milwaukee. "It is important to choose a cocoa powder with an alkalization that will help keep the product's pH close to that of milk, around 7.0."

-- http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3846/is_200504/ai_n13637116

 

[tribdog]

does chocolate milk keep longer than regular milk? not in my house. I like chocolate milk

 

[Mk]

Egads! I missed the Milk healthy vs. non-healthy issue.

This guy had too much milk:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sunglass-c.jpg

If I'm buying factory-made chocolate milk... I don't like it.

If I mix Hershey's chocolate sauce with 2% milk, I like it.

I like 1% milk with my cereal.

I don't like whole milk at all. If I want fatty I'll just put equal volume of butter or cream in it.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

That's why I drink a cup of my own urine every morning.

No that's because your mentally unbalanced.

I'm going to have to do the experiment now, it's driving me nuts, I'll let you know which one goes off first. I'll define off by the cup of tea test, i.e if the milk curdles in tea it's off it doesn't it isn't to mitigate the taste factor?

I'll use whatever fat the milk in the chocolate drink is and I'll also have a control.

 

[Anttech]

In my opinion, there's no reason why anyone should or would even want to drink milk.

A baby drinking its mothers breast milk has many benfits

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Hypothesis: Chocolate milk will not go off as fast as ordinary milk

My hypothesis is that the high amount of sugar in Chocolate milk will prohibit bacterial growth in the same way that salty water might prohibit bacterial growth. To prove this I have set up and experiment involving 4 saucers.

I have used whole milk 3% fat because the chocolate milk uses about 82% wholemilk and a smaller mix of skimmed and whipping cream: I believe the whole milk accurately simulates the fat content of each as they are about equal fat by volume if not a tad more in the chocolate milk but then we would expect the chocolate content to leave chocolate milk with slightly more fat.

1)Whole fresh milk

2)Chocolate milk

3)Control containing whole fresh milk

4)Control containing chocolate milk

Each saucer contains precisely 100ml of milk and each saucer is on a window sill(at night so light levels and temperature will have minimal bearing on the experiment)

Equipment

4 saucers
test fluids
Fat baster
watch as timer.

Current progress:

Having set up the test I have run into a small snag, my cat seems to be running amock over my experiment by drinking the test fluids. I have therefore restarted the test and placed said fluids in a location my cat cannot reach. Environmental considerations should now be considered to be the same for all 4 dishes.

Cats prefer whole milk to chocolate milk it seems. Although interesting this is not part of my experiment.

I will check each test fluid every 30 mins to see if it has "gone off" by applying the standard scientific "cup of tea" test as outlined in a previous post.

Wish me luck ladies and gentleman, science as we know it is about to change, for the better I hope

 

[honestrosewater]

Having set up the test I have run into a small snag, my cat seems to be running amock over my experiment by drinking the test fluids. I have therefore restarted the test and placed said fluids in a location my cat cannot reach. Environmental considerations should now be considered to be the same for all 4 dishes.

Cats prefer whole milk to chocolate milk it seems. Although interesting this is not part of my experiment.

So when will you tell us what we all want to know: Is Schrodinger's Dog's cat dead or alive?

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Work in progress it's now four hours later and no curdling, this may take longer than originally planned bear with me. I've nullified the cat that got the milk vector and the dog is unable to leap high enough to get at it. Evidence will be forthcoming fear not. I'm on it

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I drink nearly 1/2 gallon of milk a day and weigh 155lbs at 6ft, mostly muscle. However I exercise and weightlift 3 times a week.

 

[Moonbear]

Having set up the test I have run into a small snag, my cat seems to be running amock over my experiment by drinking the test fluids. I have therefore restarted the test and placed said fluids in a location my cat cannot reach. Environmental considerations should now be considered to be the same for all 4 dishes.

Cats prefer whole milk to chocolate milk it seems. Although interesting this is not part of my experiment.

I hope you have followed all the appropriate regulatory procedures for that bit of animal testing in your experiment, or else PETA might come after you. Ah, the trials and tribulations of research.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I know well it's 6 hours into testing and not 1 of the saucers has gone off, damn this northern climate, well at least we have the gulf stream in this latitude, keeping the temperature vaguely regular: don't worry our house temperature is close to room temperature.

Keeping you updated in the interest of science.

1am GMT, cat is asleep and seems disinterested with milk situation, which is good from an experimental point of view, dog dead to the world too, we have a go!

All is going to plan, science is a hard task master but I believe we have a scientificly valid go on this one.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Ok further up date it's now 7am GMT 12hrs from the start of the experiment and surprisingly none of the saucers shows any sign of going off. I had wanted to leave a proxy to monitor the situation while I slept but as is so often true, you really just can't get the staff.

The cat situation has been neatly remedied by leaving the dog in the kitchen; he's been keeping the cat at bay by poking his head through the cat flap most of the night, this appears to have destroyed the sinister felines machinations on milk consumption. I feel we're nearing SP or sour point; I'm getting all tingly with excitement, I now know what it was like for those scientists back on Earth when Neil Armstrong set foot on the moon. Till later watch this space...

 

[Moonbear]

Ok further up date it's now 7am GMT 12hrs from the start of the experiment and surprisingly none of the suacers shows any sign of going off. I had wanted to leave a proxy to monitor the situation while I slept but as is so often true, you really just can't get the staff.

The cat situation has been neatly remedied by leaving the dog in the kitchen; he's been keeping the cat at bay by poking his head through the cat flap most of the night, this appears to have destroyed the sinister felines machinations on milk consumption. I feel we're nearing sp or sour point; I'm getting all tingly with excitement, I now know what it was like for those scientists back on Earth when Neil Armstrong set foot on the moon. Till later watch this space...

My bet's on them both souring when you have to leave for a few hours for a class or something so you won't know which one soured first.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Off work today and handed in my last assessment at the weekend so a bit of free time. It's now 10:17am GMT and both the control and to a smaller extent the whole milk have a skin forming, both still passed the tea test. The chocolate ones look and seem as they did before, I don't want to jump the gun here but I think we have definite sourage of the white milk and non sourage of the chocolate, I suspect in another hour or so we will have the conclusive results we need.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

1:13pm GMT have completed test for SP but negative on whole milk and chocolate. I have ammended test instruments to show that I am using a properly steralise(boiling water) fat baster as a pipette. The whole milk certainly looks to be turning but the generally cold weather means STP is being maintained. It'd be hard to see if the chocolate stuff is turning as it's a little thicker.

Had it been a hotter or more humid day I would have expected the milk to turn in a few hours, as it is it is now 20 hours in and we have yet to see curdled milk in the tea test. In fact I am drinking tea with a small amount of the test material in as I write. Mmm a little chocolaty, actually not that unpleasant Science it seems does have it's perks.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

3:43pm milk still not turned according to tea test but whole milk seems to be quite yellow on the skin on the surface only a matter of time, chocolate milk still chocalaty and still looks exactly the same as it did 21 hours ago.

Minor blip though cat might go for the milk but appears dissinterested.

 

[jimmy p]

It might affect the experiment, but have you tried stirring the milk?

 

[chronon]

I think the milk is being affected by the quantum zeno effect - you keep observing it and so forcing it into a non-sour eigenstate.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

yes ok, what will stiring the milk do? I don't think Quantum effects have an apreciable effect on milk but I'm no expert I'll erm bear it in mind.

Oh yeah that would mix the bacteria in I supose? Provided I did it for both I don't think it would destroy the experiment?

 

[Orefa]

Place all your samples on a board and move the board gently to stir. This should be sufficient, it will stir all samples the same way and it will prevent cross contamination from utensils.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Results: white milk seems to have curdled faster than chocolate milk, the stirring seems to have accelerated the process. In the control and main sample both have sperated and curdled and fail the tea test.

Conclusion: Chocolate milk does indeed seem to have a preservative component the milk doesn't share, further research into the mix between sugars and fats and the ratios may reveal the exact reason but for now the chocolate passes the SP test after 25 hours of testing. I therefore humbly submit to the Scientists amongst you that at least in this single experiment it seems that whole milk will spoil faster than Chocolate milk

After thoughts: thanks to Orefa for the stiring sugestion I'd like to thank all my fellow science advisors for their continued support and for there kind words, but there weren't any. I'd like to thank my cat for showing that the best layed plans of mice and men should be better layed plans involving dogs. No award or honorary mention is necessary I just hope we can all learn from this experiment, my forthcoming paper in Nature should leave this fascinating field open to replication.

I would like to sincerely thank Physics forums for the kind and considerate help in what has been for me trying experimental conditions. I hope my objectivity was sufficient enough to inspire any scientists that hope to stand on my shoulders.

Plese check the resulting paper for Erata and my list of contributers.

Once again I thank you all, I feel like a small cog in a big machine today

 

[Moonbear]

Bravo! *applauds speech* Now, just trying to remind myself...the whole milk tested was a fresh replacement after the cat stuck its germy tongue into lap up the first bowl, correct? This isn't a test of the effects of cat germs on milk SP, right?

Are there any preservatives in chocolate milk? Did both start out with the same expiration date? Well, you know, there's always controversy surrounding such an apparent break-through discovery.

 

[Orefa]

Awww, are you trying to ruin a perfectly good theory using ugly facts? If so then I'll want a measurement of the initial Coliform count in the various samples used in the experiment.

Edit: Oh yeah, bravo from me too! An entertaining experiment that has kept us all waiting with bated breadth! More! More!

 

[jimmy p]

I helped! for the first time ever! wooooo!

Congrats on the long awaited results.

This was actually quite a fun thread. Do another experiment.

 

[tribdog]

I didn't know bad milk curdled in tea.

 

[tribdog]

try it again. this time take milk out of one bottle and make it into chocolate milk. That way you know the expiration date is the same. If you were using premade chocolate milk I know they add a lot of stuff to it at the factory.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Yeah good ideas, I replaced the original cat drank milk after cleaning the saucer and replaced the control whole milk and chocolate milk too for good measure even if it was only a few minutes after the experiment started. As for expiration dates I still have the whole milk container but I threw the chocolate milk container away after drinking the contents which were very nice btw.

Of course I would suspect that checking the expiration dates on several containrs to see if they last longer than whole milk would have given me some sort of anecdotal evidence too. I shall repeat the experiment at a later date making sure to improve the conditions

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Well time to bump this thread, a new scientific adventure beckons.

Since my premise that chocolate milk appears to keep longer than ordinary milk, I have of course been busy giving lectures and attending forums and conventions where I have presented my revolutionary results, and of course writing up the paper for peer review. I believe Nature and Scientific American have bot expressed interest, my agent tells me to keep them hanging on though

However my forthcoming fame aside it's time to test to see if my premise that it's the increased sugar content of chocolate milk is the reason it keeps so long, or there are other factors involved?

Hypothesis

My premise is therefore that sugary milk should keep longer than standard milk.

Method

I will use saucers 1 to 6(with 0 to 5 spoonfulls of sugar in each) and two controls one with(about the same level as sugar in dish 3) and one without sugar. I will stir each dish every 3 hours 3 times with a sterile pipette which I will also use to administer the tea test (see previous experiment) Each dish will be tested at hourly intervals to see if it has curdled, the experiment will end when the last but one of the non control bowls has curdled.

Unfortunately I lost my cat about a month ago, but this is to sciences benefit even if it is a sore point. So no cat monitoring activity this time. However I will try and make sure nothing contaminates the milk by keeping them in a fairly isolated place.

Equipment

8 saucers
1 pippette
1 kettle for making tea and for sterilization
1 cup
2 sugars
cream to taste
milk
sugar for the saucers

Wish me luck, science is about to take another step into the unknown, important knowledge is mere days away. Doesn't it make you feel all goose pimply and tingly inside?

Experiment begins 8PM GMT this evening. 3PM EST

EDIT: in case anyone thinks the measure of sugar will be off, I'm using measuring spoons of exactly 1tsp, and shaken so that the sugar lies flat with the spoon.

 

[brewnog]

1% and 2% milk.

1% milk? God, you USians really do water stuff down don't you! Our milk here is all milk...