Register to reply

Literacy Rates and Developing Countries

Share this thread:
Dembadon
#19
Dec6-12, 01:29 PM
PF Gold
Dembadon's Avatar
P: 641
Hi JonDrew,

I believe the predicament you're in now is that your premise needs to change.

Originally, your premise was that an increase in literacy produces an increase in standard of living. Since you're looking for ways to produce higher standards of living by avoiding literacy, you'd need to find studies that show literacy is not correlated to standard of living and go from there. Additionally, it would help to show that an increase in information alone produces an increase in standard of living.
JonDrew
#20
Dec6-12, 01:43 PM
P: 83
Quote Quote by Dembadon View Post

I believe the predicament you're in now is that your premise needs to change.

Originally, your premise was that an increase in literacy produces an increase in standard of living. Since you're looking for ways to produce higher standards of living by avoiding literacy, you'd need to find studies that show literacy is not correlated to standard of living and go from there. Additionally, it would help to show that an increase in information alone produces an increase in standard of living.
I disagree, I think the two (literacy rates and "speech to text" implementation) are so closely related that substituting the statistics for literacy rates and standard of living would be sufficient. I've seen much farther stretches work when analyzing other econometrics. I agree that what ever results I find on the topic might need to be taken with a grain of salt but that is how statistics are meant to be read anyway, thanks for the suggestion.
Oltz
#21
Dec6-12, 01:47 PM
P: 12
Quote Quote by wuliheron View Post
First semantic splitting of hairs over the meaning of poverty and now questions about whether the chicken or the egg came first. I've already provided links to reputable websites including the UN which claim gender equality reduces poverty rates. However, if you like I can also recommend websites on how to make a rational argument and avoid logical fallacies and conspiracy theories.
And I can point out that Correlation does not equal Causation. Whats your point?

You can not compare poverty rates across multiple countries as each reports the statistic differently and every group that tries to compile there own report uses the supplied data and has to come up with a method to adjust each nation to try and normalize the data. Each agency is different and they are all equally meaning less in that they reflect the biases of the data processors as much as the data. Just like infant mortality is measured in many different ways.

Read this article
http://www.economist.com/node/17961878

and take a look at national poverty lines and criticism sections of the wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty..._poverty_lines

From this report

http://www.democracy.uci.edu/files/d.../alexander.pdf

We consider these four aspects indicative of a logical sequence of progression in gender
equality. In theory, it is reasonable to presume that early gains in gender equality take the form
of women’s greater equality with men in skill development and standard of living. These gains
untie women from traditional household activities, setting them free to participate in greater rates
in civic activities such as petitions and boycotts. In turn, a more strongly female civil society
helps pave the way for more women to achieve power positions. Finally, when women enter
power positions in greater numbers at a broader front, it also becomes likely that more women
enter national parliaments.
Thus the gender equality evolution does not start in a country or culture until the standard of living is high enough that they have time to pursue other interests. You can not launch a movement when you do not even have time to learn to read because your every moment is dedicated to staying alive. Industrialization and electricity are the keys to starting on any path.
Oltz
#22
Dec6-12, 01:53 PM
P: 12
Quote Quote by Dembadon View Post
Hi JonDrew,

I believe the predicament you're in now is that your premise needs to change.

Originally, your premise was that an increase in literacy produces an increase in standard of living. Since you're looking for ways to produce higher standards of living by avoiding literacy, you'd need to find studies that show literacy is not correlated to standard of living and go from there. Additionally, it would help to show that an increase in information alone produces an increase in standard of living.
I think I agree with you Literacy improves standard of living because it allows you to gain better employment because nearly every job requires you to read messages and write messages even if its just a pizza order or an address street signs whatever. Speech to text could write your messages for you but unless your co workers are texting you everything they need to have you read how will those simple day to day minute to minute things that are in text get to your e-reader. Now an e-reader based learn to read software that was cheap and easy would be a benefit. Again in a situation where you have time to use it.
JonDrew
#23
Dec6-12, 01:55 PM
P: 83
Quote Quote by Oltz View Post
Thus the gender equality evolution does not start in a country or culture until the standard of living is high enough that they have time to pursue other interests. You can not launch a movement when you do not even have time to learn to read because your every moment is dedicated to staying alive. Industrialization and electricity are the keys to starting on any path.
I think substituting literacy with e-readers in many countries could make this process move faster, enough people must learn to be electricians before electricity can become unanimous.
Dembadon
#24
Dec6-12, 02:01 PM
PF Gold
Dembadon's Avatar
P: 641
Quote Quote by JonDrew View Post
I disagree, I think the two (literacy rates and "speech to text" implementation) are so closely related that substituting the statistics for literacy rates and standard of living would be sufficient ...
I'm not following, especially since you agreed with my claim:
Quote Quote by JonDrew
Quote Quote by Dembadon
While I can see the benefits of what you propose, your solution actually circumvents literacy rather than producing it. Literacy, by definition, is the ability to read and write.
Agreed, thanks for the correction.
JonDrew
#25
Dec6-12, 02:04 PM
P: 83
Quote Quote by Oltz View Post
I think I agree with you Literacy improves standard of living because it allows you to gain better employment because nearly every job requires you to read messages and write messages even if its just a pizza order or an address street signs whatever. Speech to text could write your messages for you but unless your co workers are texting you everything they need to have you read how will those simple day to day minute to minute things that are in text get to your e-reader. Now an e-reader based learn to read software that was cheap and easy would be a benefit. Again in a situation where you have time to use it.
I am afraid I don't understand what you are saying.

Just to clarify, "speech to text" systems go both ways, they can read to you and write things for you. And instantaneous messaging isn't what I think it would solve, but it could allow someone to have access to learning skills like being an electrician or mechanic and even teach better ways to filter water or cook/grow food.
JonDrew
#26
Dec6-12, 02:07 PM
P: 83
Quote Quote by Dembadon View Post
I'm not following, especially since you agreed with my claim:
I only agreed with the flaw in my grammar, not my premise.
Dembadon
#27
Dec6-12, 02:10 PM
PF Gold
Dembadon's Avatar
P: 641
Quote Quote by Oltz View Post
I think I agree with you Literacy improves standard of living because it allows you to gain better employment because nearly every job requires you to read messages and write messages even if its just a pizza order or an address street signs whatever. Speech to text could write your messages for you but unless your co workers are texting you everything they need to have you read how will those simple day to day minute to minute things that are in text get to your e-reader. Now an e-reader based learn to read software that was cheap and easy would be a benefit. Again in a situation where you have time to use it.
Just for clarity, I've not made any claims as to whether literacy improves one's standard of living; I'm just trying to understand in what manner JonDrew is connecting literacy and text-to-speech technology. I'm of the opinion that one cannot be substituted for the other without violating the definition of literacy.
Oltz
#28
Dec6-12, 02:28 PM
P: 12
Think of it like this learning to be an electrician with a speech to text e-reader would be great until you went to the store and could not read the box of fuses to know which ones you need to buy.

Or being a mechanic and not being able to get the right parts because you can not actually read the boxes.

Unless you can read you can't actually do the job with out help no matter how much you learn about being an electrician or a mechanic you will still need the skill to read at some point.
wuliheron
#29
Dec6-12, 02:37 PM
P: 1,967
Quote Quote by Oltz View Post
And I can point out that Correlation does not equal Causation. Whats your point?

You can not compare poverty rates across multiple countries as each reports the statistic differently and every group that tries to compile there own report uses the supplied data and has to come up with a method to adjust each nation to try and normalize the data. Each agency is different and they are all equally meaning less in that they reflect the biases of the data processors as much as the data. Just like infant mortality is measured in many different ways.

Read this article
http://www.economist.com/node/17961878

and take a look at national poverty lines and criticism sections of the wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty..._poverty_lines

From this report

http://www.democracy.uci.edu/files/d.../alexander.pdf



Thus the gender equality evolution does not start in a country or culture until the standard of living is high enough that they have time to pursue other interests. You can not launch a movement when you do not even have time to learn to read because your every moment is dedicated to staying alive. Industrialization and electricity are the keys to starting on any path.
More equivocation and obfuscation. The first article is so short and vague as to be worthless, all the wikipedia article does is confirm every country has their own standards for measuring poverty, and the PDF consists of nothing more than a theory proposed by two authors. None of them constitute evidence that any of your assertions are anything more than wild speculation. With all the vast and reputable organizations today dedicated to addressing poverty if this is the best you can do I'd suggest trying harder.
JonDrew
#30
Dec6-12, 02:44 PM
P: 83
Quote Quote by Dembadon View Post
Just for clarity, I've not made any claims as to whether literacy improves one's standard of living; I'm just trying to understand in what manner JonDrew is connecting literacy and text-to-speech technology. I'm of the opinion that one cannot be substituted for the other without violating the definition of literacy.
Teaching people how to read is expensive, it cost time and money. For developing nations "speech to text" technology could allow illiterate people to have access to information that previously only the literate people had access too. I think it would be remarkable to get "speech to text" software in the hands of illiterate people in developing nations both empowering more people with knowledge and hopefully an improved economic status.
JonDrew
#31
Dec6-12, 02:51 PM
P: 83
Quote Quote by Oltz View Post
Think of it like this learning to be an electrician with a speech to text e-reader would be great until you went to the store and could not read the box of fuses to know which ones you need to buy.

Or being a mechanic and not being able to get the right parts because you can not actually read the boxes.

Unless you can read you can't actually do the job with out help no matter how much you learn about being an electrician or a mechanic you will still need the skill to read at some point.
Haha, hadn't thought of that.

But it certainly lays the ground work for someone to easily show him how to choose the correct fuse and that is what I think the importance of this Idea is. Maybe they would develop a whole new classification system for fuses or one person is taught to fetch the fuses and the other installs them, it could work.
Oltz
#32
Dec6-12, 02:53 PM
P: 12
Quote Quote by wuliheron View Post
More equivocation and obfuscation. The first article is so short and vague as to be worthless, all the wikipedia article does is confirm every country has their own standards for measuring poverty, and the PDF consists of nothing more than a theory proposed by two authors. None of them constitute evidence that any of your assertions are anything more than wild speculation. With all the vast and reputable organizations today dedicated to addressing poverty if this is the best you can do I'd suggest trying harder.
You seem to have lost your plot you said poverty is cured by gender equality. I said gender equality can not exist until a society is modern enough to have time for education.

It doesn't matter how many "vast and reputable organizations" address poverty unless you can show one that goes into subsistence living communities and mandates gender equality as a method of solving poverty you are the one with out an argument.

I agree that gender equality would help in the middle east but really I have seen nothing that shows it as the cause of better standards of living and not a symptom. As those cultures modernize they will be forced to embrace equal education and other gender issues or the culture will stagnate.

What I showed was that people can not define poverty and vast and reputable organizations can not agree on how to compare poverty even in this country alone forget about globally and that other researchers are looking at the correlations in many countries between development level and gender equality as a result of development not as the cause.

Even in the US and UK development happened first then gender and race issues became possible. Now its on you to show me one example that goes the other direction.
Gokul43201
#33
Dec6-12, 03:43 PM
Emeritus
Sci Advisor
PF Gold
Gokul43201's Avatar
P: 11,155
Quote Quote by Oltz View Post
Speech to text could write your messages for you but unless your co workers are texting you everything they need to have you read how will those simple day to day minute to minute things that are in text get to your e-reader.
Camera on your device snaps a picture of the text on a menu/billboard/receipt/shipping label/product packaging/other document and a text recognition software renders the text that is then converted to speech.
JonDrew
#34
Dec6-12, 04:29 PM
P: 83
Quote Quote by Gokul43201 View Post
Camera on your device snaps a picture of the text on a menu/billboard/receipt/shipping label/product packaging/other document and a text recognition software renders the text that is then converted to speech.
Or a barcode system of similar type could work. Perfect.
wuliheron
#35
Dec6-12, 06:32 PM
P: 1,967
Quote Quote by Oltz View Post
You seem to have lost your plot you said poverty is cured by gender equality. I said gender equality can not exist until a society is modern enough to have time for education.

It doesn't matter how many "vast and reputable organizations" address poverty unless you can show one that goes into subsistence living communities and mandates gender equality as a method of solving poverty you are the one with out an argument.

I agree that gender equality would help in the middle east but really I have seen nothing that shows it as the cause of better standards of living and not a symptom. As those cultures modernize they will be forced to embrace equal education and other gender issues or the culture will stagnate.

What I showed was that people can not define poverty and vast and reputable organizations can not agree on how to compare poverty even in this country alone forget about globally and that other researchers are looking at the correlations in many countries between development level and gender equality as a result of development not as the cause.

Even in the US and UK development happened first then gender and race issues became possible. Now its on you to show me one example that goes the other direction.
Grameen bank loaning money to women in a country like India where women are often still treated like property is an example of how gender equality can be promoted in poor countries and can address destitute poverty. Other organizations provide micro loans online and allow individuals to pick and choose who they loan money to. These are but a few examples of how greater gender equality is already being promoted in extremely poor countries and how improved communications allows this occur. If you were expecting some sort of miracle transformation overnight I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the real issue here is dealing with destitute poverty and supporting the right of women to earn a living.
Oltz
#36
Dec7-12, 07:44 AM
P: 12
Quote Quote by wuliheron View Post
Grameen bank loaning money to women in a country like India where women are often still treated like property is an example of how gender equality can be promoted in poor countries and can address destitute poverty. Other organizations provide micro loans online and allow individuals to pick and choose who they loan money to. These are but a few examples of how greater gender equality is already being promoted in extremely poor countries and how improved communications allows this occur. If you were expecting some sort of miracle transformation overnight I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the real issue here is dealing with destitute poverty and supporting the right of women to earn a living.
Still more examples of working on gender equality AFTER a certain standard of living has been achieved.

I agree that gender rights are very important and that they help bring women out of poverty but they still are irrelevant until a certain standard of living is achieved. Giving a women a loan who needs to gather food and water for 16 hours a day just to survive is not going to help a society.

Look at all the examples you give they are all clearly in places where running water and electricity is prevalent and literacy is established. This thread is about those truly with out any modern amenities that facility education by freeing time in day to day life.

India has a very large "poor" population and those loans are doing some good things from what I see on wiki, but those loans would not be possible with out the advances already made in India as a whole that is my point. Gender issues come second they always have and always will.


Register to reply

Related Discussions
Developing Countries Current Events 3
Question re literacy General Math 6
Question about literacy Academic Guidance 5
Migiro, Tanzania's foreign minister to the No. 2 job at the UN General Discussion 2
Attempting math literacy General Math 10