Would You Work for No Pay If It Was Something You Enjoyed?

[Smurf]

Well for one, what kinda society would you be having if you took the actual manhours out of hte system to build luxury cars for every citizen that wanted one? You're trying to compare systems when the original selling point is that by itself, its a great system.

Who says we'd build a ferari for every dink that wants one?

 

[Smurf]

See how rediculous it would be. You can't do 3 jobs and be any good at any of them.

Nevermind pengwuino... go back to humping rocks.

 

[Smasherman]

One could cook in the morning and program during the day. One could undertake a building project for however long needed, doing less cooking and programming as a result. Though perhaps a little less efficient, people could conceivably be happier with a variety of tasks to occupy them. Happier people tend to be more efficient, possibly offsetting the decrease in efficiency from not streamlining.

 

[Pengwuino]

One could cook in the morning and program during the day. One could undertake a building project for however long needed, doing less cooking and programming as a result. Though perhaps a little less efficient, people could conceivably be happier with a variety of tasks to occupy them. Happier people tend to be more efficient, possibly offsetting the decrease in efficiency from not streamlining.

Holy hell are you serious. People's happiness would be horribly offset by the inefficiencies that would grow out of the fact that people barely do anything for any amount of time.

 

[Pengwuino]

Who says we'd build a ferari for every dink that wants one?

Well its what the community wants...

See, its bull.

I can't believe people think like you.

I Am God.

 

[Smurf]

I Am God.

Pfft. i easily have more worshippers than you.

 

[Smasherman]

Perhaps it would be best to perform an experiment involving one group of people who do one job over and over again and another group of people that diversify their jobs.

Colleges look for students who do non-academic things, correct? Why is this? Is it because diverse individuals are more productive?

 

[cronxeh]

Perhaps it would be best to perform an experiment involving one group of people who do one job over and over again and another group of people that diversify their jobs.

Colleges look for students who do non-academic things, correct? Why is this? Is it because diverse individuals are more productive?

Nah because its a source of cheap labor

 

[Moonbear]

Did you have to lump education and child care together? I love teaching, but hate babysitting. No way in heck I'd offer to take care of anyone's kids but my own. I've always said that if I didn't have to work to earn a living, I'd teach.

I don't see anything else on that list that I'd do for free. I got the education I got so I would earn enough to NOT have to do those to earn a living.

 

[pattylou]

I wouldn't of, except I ran out of options.

Cooking isn't even on the list. So child care and education got lumped, probably because my kids are smallish and the two are still basically the same chore.

(well, that, and my college age students are really in need of a grounding from time to time. )

 

[pattylou]

Patty's understanding of anarcho-socialist thought it rough at best.

Hey now. While I'm not even sure that you've used proper English, I am pretty sure that I've just been insulted.

I told you (or someone else) that I am not a communist. So I may not appreciate the nuances of anarcho-socialism.

But! The main beef I have with the converation in PWA is the idea that "people won't work if they don't have to..." The fact that no one out of 12 respondents *here* has chosen "none," is strong evidence that I was right - people work at things they enjoy for the common good, out of basic human drives of decency etc.

Even if half of the population wanted to be lazy (or, alternatively, all the population half the time) it seems that society should still function well enough.

 

[Smurf]

I am pretty sure that I've just been insulted.

Of course not. My insults are far more creative than that. That was me excusing you from your position as thread monitor. It's a hijacking without actually changing the subject. Quite clever, really.

 

[pattylou]

Well, alright then. As long as we have that cleared up.

Smurf is terribly clever, and Patty has not been insulted. I'm good with that.

 

[pattylou]

Hmm... living in a world with only basic needs? BORING.

The idea is that if there is something you enjoy doing, you might do it - and thereby relieve your boredom.

 

[Smurf]

Smurf is terribly clever, and Patty has not been insulted.

got that right.

 

[cronxeh]

I'm sorry.. are we forgetting about the Teotihuacan ?!? That was the greatest civilization before Aztecs! They've had just the society you are thinking of, Patty. Not to mention their far greater pyramids than some lame Egyptian ones
Edit: well ok maybe Egyptians had a better pyramids, but their reasons were lame!
http://www.crystalinks.com/mexico.html

 

[Gale]

i said childcare/education... but i wouldn't do both probably. if i had to watch kids and try to educate them as well... that'd suck. but i can just entertain kids for a while, or i can just teach them.

i'd probably also build a house... i just don't know how. so i didn't check it. likewise with healthcare.

i definately wouldn't take care of the eldery... ew. what would be the point of taking care of the elderly anyway?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I'm sorry.. are we forgetting about the Teotihuacan ?!? That was the greatest civilization before Aztecs! They've had just the society you are thinking of, Patty. Not to mention their far greater pyramids than some lame Egyptian ones
http://www.crystalinks.com/mexico.html

They were also maletheists. They believed their gods would love nothing better than to destroy them and made human sacrifices to appease them. I'm sure working hard for your community made it less likely that you'd get the sharp end of the dagger or be used as a guinea pig for cranial experiments.

----edit----

The pyramids are also pretty clear evidence that there was slave labour in their society.

 

[cronxeh]

They were also maletheists. They believed their gods would love nothing better than to destroy them and made human sacrifices to appease them. I'm sure working hard for your community made it less likely that you'd get the sharp end of the dagger or be used as a guinea pig for cranial experiments.
----edit----
The pyramids are also pretty clear evidence that there was slave labour in their society.

Well they were polytheists, i don't know where you got the message that they feared their gods - probably seeked to please them rather than fearing them. Although a couple of volcano eruptions would've made them more scared of the 'gods'

Slaves not in same sense as European kind of slaves. At least judging by what Aztecs considered 'slave':

Slaves or tlacotin (distinct from war captives) also constituted an important class. This slavery was very different from what Europeans of the same period were to establish in their colonies, although it had much in common with the slaves of classical antiquity. (Sahagún doubts the appropriateness even of the term "slavery" for this Aztec institution.) First, slavery was personal, not hereditary: a slave's children were free. A slave could have possessions and even own other slaves. Slaves could buy their liberty, and slaves could be set free if they were able to show they had been mistreated or if they had children with or were married to their masters.

Typically, upon the death of the master, slaves who had performed outstanding services were freed. The rest of the slaves were passed on as part of an inheritance.

Another rather remarkable method for a slave to recover liberty was described by Manuel Orozco y Berra in La civilización azteca (1860): if, at the tianquiztli (marketplace; the word has survived into modern-day Spanish as "tianguis"), a slave could escape the vigilance of his or her master, run outside the walls of the market and step on a piece of human excrement, he could then present his case to the judges, who would free him. He or she would then be washed, provided with new clothes (so that he or she would not be wearing clothes belonging to the master), and declared free. Because, in stark contrast to the European colonies, a person could be declared a slave if he or she attempted to prevent the escape of a slave (unless that person were a relative of the master), others would not typically help the master in preventing the slave's escape.
Wooden collar.
Enlarge
Wooden collar.

Orozco y Berra also reports that a master could not sell a slave without the slave's consent, unless the slave had been classified as incorrigible by an authority. (Incorrigibility could be determined on the basis of repeated laziness, attempts to run away, or general bad conduct.) Incorrigible slaves were made to wear a wooden collar, affixed by rings at the back. The collar was not merely a symbol of bad conduct: it was designed to make it harder to run away through a crowd or through narrow spaces.

When buying a collared slave, one was informed of how many times that slave had been sold. A slave who was sold four times as incorrigible could be sold to be sacrificed; those slaves commanded a premium in price.

However, if a collared slave managed to present him- or herself in the royal palace or in a temple, he or she would regain liberty.

An Aztec could become a slave as a punishment. A murderer sentenced to death could instead, upon the request of the wife of his victim, be given to her as a slave. A father could sell his son into slavery if the son was declared incorrigible by an authority. Those who did not pay their debts could also be sold as slaves.

People could sell themselves as slaves. They could stay free long enough to enjoy the price of their liberty, about twenty blankets, usually enough for a year; after that time they went to their new master. Usually this was the destiny of gamblers and of old ahuini (courtesans or prostitutes).

Motolinía reports that some captives, future victims of sacrifice, were treated as slaves with all the rights of an Aztec slave until the time of their sacrifice, but it is not clear how they were kept from running away.

 

[edward]

Definitely fishing, I do it all the time for no pay.

 

[Evo]

Funny, the only thing you couldn't get me to do for any amount of money is take care of children. I didn't even like children when I was a child. Once in a blue moon an intelligent child comes along that I can tolerate, but it's rare, very rare.

 

[cronxeh]

Funny, the only thing you couldn't get me to do for any amount of money is take care of children. I didn't even like children when I was a child. Once in a blue moon an intelligent child comes along that I can tolerate, but it's rare, very rare.

and then there's the Evochild, right?

 

[Evo]

and then there's the Evochild, right?

She's that very, very rare child, (and her sister) and they know it.

 

[russ_watters]

Finally proof that Russ understanding of english doesn't include "contribute to the common good".

It's called realism, Smurf. People who win the lottery do not go back to work and the USSR wallowed in mediocrity because there were no rewards for doing good work. Just because what you imagine can exist inside your head does not mean it can exist in reality. In your head, you are able to ignore the contradictions and flaws. In reality, what you imagine simply cannot work.

And since we live in a capitalist society, Smurf, the best way for me to "contribute to the common good" is to do a good job at my job, get paid well, and pump that money back into the economy by spending it. And I will.

And though liberals like to think they have the market cornered on pulling your weight for the sake of pulling your weight, they are the ones who are pushing to reward people for not pulling their weight!

When I left the navy, I was unemployed for exactly 60 days - I actually started looking for a job before I left. When my hippie roommate got laid off from his job, he went on a 2-month road-trip out west and then lived off the extended unemployment Bush got passed for the next year before making a serious attempt at finding a new job. There is a reason why rich people are Republicans and it ain't because they became rich before they became Republicans.

 

[laminatedevildoll]

I have always wanted to go live in a farm house in the country, like the ones in Norah Roberts' novels.

 

[Gokul43201]

But! The main beef I have with the converation in PWA is the idea that "people won't work if they don't have to..." The fact that no one out of 12 respondents *here* has chosen "none," is strong evidence that I was right - people work at things they enjoy ...

Correct !

...for the common good, out of basic human drives of decency etc.

Only correct if "etc" includes things like "out of a desire to live, and not atrophy". There's no evidence that all 12 respondents want to work "for the common good". Many have chosen to do things that simply give them pleasure.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Another thing to keep in mind is the particular crowd that's being polled here. I've met planty of people that would do nothing but play video games and the like all day if they could get away with it.
One of my good friends is in graduate school and really hasn't any plans to do anything with himself but to keep going to school. He makes really good money working as a teachers aid which usually doesn't take up much of his time and he mostly finds it annoying. He spends most of his time drinking, reading random essays on cognitive science, and playing on his computer.

 

[jimmie]

I would spend the first half of my life preparing for the second half of my life, where I created a needed product so unique and so successful that it would establish a new standard within its industry, and I would protect that product with intellectual property that guaranteed that product would dominate its industry for many, many, many years, and after individuals all over the globe understood that the product would dominate its industry for many, many, many years, I would leave my immediate family forever, give away all the wealth that I derived from that creation, and spend the final days of my life in solitude, for the non-guaranteed opportunity to teach you what is "right".

 

[loseyourname]

I would spend the first half of my life preparing for the second half of my life, where I created a needed product so unique and so successful that it would establish a new standard within its industry, and I would protect that product with intellectual property that guaranteed that product would dominate its industry for many, many, many years, and after individuals all over the globe understood that the product would dominate its industry for many, many, many years, I would leave my immediate family forever, give away all the wealth that I derived from that creation, and spend the final days of my life in solitude, for the non-guaranteed opportunity to teach you what is "right".

That doesn't make any sense given the context of our hypothetical situation here. In a world with no money, seemingly with no transactions of any kind, in which people's needs are simply provided for them, the very concepts of "wealth" and "products" and "intellectual property" are dubious at best. You're free to create whatever industry standard you wish, but you would derive no gain from it personally outside of satisfaction and the gains that it wrought for the entire community.

 

[Smurf]

not no transaction of any kind. Just no monetary transactions.

 

[Mk]

I would play music for free.

For "fun" is what I think you mean. For the enjoyment of yourself and others.

But I hope you wouldn't be a lazy ass playing music all day for free. Like that beggar down the street... Your real job would be programming OSs and hand-building Ferraris for the people that worked hard enough to get enough money, to buy them.

 

[Math Is Hard]

All I've ever wanted to do was to have a huge animal shelter. I wish I could find some way to do that and make a living at it, but that's tough. If I had all the money I needed, that's what I would do.

 

[Mk]

They were also maletheists. They believed their gods would love nothing better than to destroy them and made human sacrifices to appease them. I'm sure working hard for your community made it less likely that you'd get the sharp end of the dagger or be used as a guinea pig for cranial experiments.

Even today's Catholic religion seems to be the same idea to me. If you do certain designated things you spend all of eternity (well almost that long) in an unimaginably bad place. Since, the Church and/or local king could "interpret" the Bible really, however they wanted; they would decide what it says and what it doesn't, thereby controlling their people in yet another way.

i don't know where you got the message that they feared their gods - probably seeked to please them rather than fearing them. Although a couple of volcano eruptions would've made them more scared of the 'gods'

Well, you kind of want to be cool with an omnipotent being(s). I would say it was fearing and pleasing them at the same time.

Of course, maybe more towards fearing... they murdered unimaginable amounts of people annually, on top of those pyramids, ripping out their beating hearts. Some festivals, such as their spring festival (forgot the name), required children to be sacrificed.

I don't know what would drive a sane human to do and watch willingly those kinds of things. To please someone? Maybe out of fear that it would happen to you. I admit I'd rather have it happen to someone else than myself.

 

[russ_watters]

Anyway, the poll, pattylou, is poorly constructed. If you want to know if people would work if they did not have to (or if you didn't get paid), you should ask 'would you work if you did not have to?' or 'what would you do if you did not get paid to work?' in a straightforward yes-or-no way and provide yes or no answers. It appears that the question people are answering is 'if you did not get paid, but still had to work, what would you do?' and the conclusions you drew cannot be gathered from answering that question.

 

[Andy]

Hunting sounds good to me always enjoyed stalking lil rabbits as a kid with my grandads air rifle. Other would be playing soccer or spending more time playing my guitar and apart from that i would sit around watching MTV!