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shogun338
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T- Hawk video from 4-15-11 shows a closeup of the gray mass in Unit 4 around 2.48 and it appears to be rubber roof sheathing or something similar .
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Yes, and thank you so much for making those HQ videos available.shogun338 said:New T-Hawk video from 4-15-11 . Some closer shots of Unit 1 and Unit 3 . Video quality looks a little better .
Well Shogun, just like we do not have the actual explanation as to why the Earth's molten core causes our magnetic field that helps shield the Earth from solar/cosmic radiation, do we absolutely know what is happening in those reactors when the Earth shakes and the radiation levels soar.shogun338 said:RADIATION levels around Japan’s stricken nuclear plant soared after another earthquake jolted the *country yesterday.
Read more: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...her-earthquake-115875-23066249/#ixzz1JkYl16i3
Joe Neubarth said:Well Shogun, just like we do not have the actual explanation as to why the Earth's molten core causes our magnetic field that helps shield the Earth from solar/cosmic radiation, do we absolutely know what is happening in those reactors when the Earth shakes and the radiation levels soar.
Are we seeing limited Earth shaken fission; or, do the gamma rays wait for a good shake before being born?
jmelson said:OK, then a stoichiometric or oxygen-rich acetylene fire will release an absolutely IMMENSE white flash, I mean almost nuclear detonation-class flash that would be seen for miles.
But, an acetylene cylinder that is punctured will not generally release acetylene very quickly, it takes a while to fizz out of the acetone/filler mix. The tanks are filled with a clay-like filler, and then saturated with acetone, then the acetylene is dissolved in that sort of like CO2 in soda.
Jon
|Fred said:caption contest :(
Crane Crane, reactor open lid ?What's the crane on the right (north) doing there ?
bytepirate said:but where is the triggering quake?
http://neic.usgs.gov/cgi-bin/epic/e...AT=0.0&CLON=0.0&CRAD=0.0&SUBMIT=Submit+Search
I shouldn't have said "shaken." I should have said "disturbed." It would not require an earthquake. At some point, with continuous heating, the water would get hot enough to bubble under 2 atm of pressure, and then the pool would disturb itself. (Not very hot - ~125 C.)
Significant bubble formation would cause a reduction in pressure, which would allow more water to flash to steam, creating more bubbles... the process would run away, just like those CO2-loaded lakes that occasionally invert their water layers and emit massive amounts of CO2. But with many pounds of TNT-equivalent per cubic meter of superheated water, the process could be quite violent.
In a follow-on post, I had suggested that convection could be reduced enough to create this effect by an earthquake knocking a flat piece of material into the pool so that it covered the top of a fueling rack. This would not trigger the explosion; it would create the conditions for the heating to start. Sometime later, the explosion would trigger itself.
TCups said:Help me with this. If the FHM3 (or at least part of it) is still in SFP3, then what is(are) the large green object(s) that look as if they fell from the sky and smacked the northwest corner of building 3? Maybe the FHM did break up..
cphoenix said:The more I look at the damage to 4 in the high-quality videos, the more I'm struck by how gentle (slow) the explosion must have been. Certainly very forceful, to have crumbled concrete. But it looks more like something pushed the panels out, than like something blasted the panels out. And that gray stuff lying near the crane - it seems almost draped over the debris, as though it had not fallen very far or very violently. A lot of stuff seems tumbled around, not blasted up and dropped from hundreds of feet (like unit 3).
This, plus the lack of soot, makes me like the superheated-water hypothesis more. The explosion would not generate over 2.25 atm (absolute) of pressure... but there would be a massive amount of gas generated.
I don't know the hydrodynamics, and it would depend on what parts of the building failed at what time. But I can imagine a boiling mist of water erupting from the pool, pressurizing the building, spraying off of surfaces, perhaps finding its way below-decks before it finished boiling.
Any guesses as to how much pressure differential it would take to blow out those panels? They weren't designed for sideways load, and many tons of force could be applied with just a little superheated water in a confined space.
This might also explain how pool 4 can still hold water, after something crumbled out a concrete wall next to the pool (if I understand the pictures correctly). Most of the pressure release would be upward from the pool, following the path of least resistance left by the boiling. But there'd be an overpressure above the pool - again, fairly gentle, but perhaps on the order of an extra atm of pressure over a large area. And there'd be lots of sloshing in the pool, and maybe water-hammer effects. A diffuse, slowly-applied force might crumble concrete without ripping steel.
Chris
|Fred said:Part of the utility/dryer pool crane/machine
TCups said:@AtomicWombat
Help me with this. If the FHM3 (or at least part of it) is still in SFP3, then what is(are) the large green object(s) that look as if they fell from the sky and smacked the northwest corner of building 3? Maybe the FHM did break up.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Picture7.png
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Picture6-1.png
|Fred said:Part of the utility/dryer pool crane/machine
TCups said:And what might this large, curved, slab-like object that looks as if it hit an inner wall of Bldg 3 be? A "cookie"? Could the primary containment, once it "blew" not only have blown out the fuel transfer chute, but also, blown out some of the semi-circular portions of the "neck of the primary containment below the level of the service floor, and therefor, been the driving force in the blow out of the lower portions of Bldg 3 as well? We still have 3 booms to explain.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Picture8-2.png
AtomicWombat said:I've been wondering if there is a separate crane/machine over the equipment pool in each building.
It looks like a piece of bent sheet metal to me.
I'm wary of drawing anything but tentative conclusions from image analysis, especially since we have no experience of working in these or similar plants.
It reminds me a little of seeing images of the aftermath of a bad car crash on TV. Often you can't work out the make and model of the cars involved let alone determine the details of what happened. On the other hand if you could sift through the debris personally you would probably be better able to form firm conclusions.
AtomicWombat said:I get an unrecognised format with WinRAR.
AtomicWombat said:Can anyone unzip the topmost 3 videos here:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/index-e.html"
I get an unrecognised format with WinRAR.
Dmytry said:Yep. I'm very surprised though that there was no word from explosion experts about the video. No estimates of energy, in traditional TNT equivalent.
I'm still looking for chimney height as quoted from official source. It seems clear to me that the explosion in #3 could not possibly have been a hydrogen explosion but I would love to have data to conclusively show it in the way that can't be easily denied.
I'm going to also base height on photo for now and figure out the air movements for the observed plume velocity (not the debris). I did some numerical fluid simulations in the past, this is going to take a while. But overall - this stuff is rising very very fast, I'm sure it is steam vented out of reactor, not steam from hydrogen combustion.
Borek said:You can't calculate the mass from known trajectory. Every object having the same initial speed will behave identically (well, ignoring air resistance, but in the case of high density objects and not too high speeds that's quite good approximation).
Thank you very much for this excellent informed overview!NUCENG said:In Unit two I believe the containment failure occurred in the wetwell air space creating the loud noise near the torus reported by operators. The relatively smaller damage in Unit 2 was due to a relatively smaller core damage of perhaps 20 percent. There was enough of a detonation to pop the blowout panels on the refueling floor walls. Containment pressure dropped indicating the loss of containment. The RPV is probably intact.
PietKuip said:Thank you very much for this excellent informed overview!
So there are special blowout panels? Somewhere else I had read that the opening in the wall of Unit 2 had been made by workers in order to prevent hydrogen explosions, but it is unclear to me when this would have been done.
NUCENG said:Fukusjma deliberately opened holes in unit 2 so they could spray water into the spent fuel pool. The blowout panels may not have been close enough to the pool.
clancy688 said:There's one thing bugging me for weeks regarding this opening of holes... how exactly did they manage to do that?
I mean, they had to remove one of those big concrete panels (sat images show, that there's one panel missing on the east side), but I don't see how that would've been possible. As in Units 1, 3 and 4 there must have been large amounts of hydrogen around. So drilling or using explosives is a no-go. How did they manage it then?
Krikkosnack said:this is true for the descent phase ... but for the rising phase?