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Abdelrahman
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/200812279451509662.html"
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The U.S. on Saturday blamed the militant group Hamas for breaking a cease-fire and attacking Israel, which retaliated with strikes of its own during what became the single bloodiest day of fighting in years.
The White House called for the cease-fire to be restored, yet there were few indications that the violence, which has left more than 200 people dead and nearly another 400 wounded, was waning. Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak warned that the operation in Gaza would widen if necessary.
It was "completely unacceptable" for Hamas, which controls Gaza, to launch attacks on Israel after a truce lasting several months, said Gordon Johndroe, a spokesman for the National Security Council.
"These people are nothing but thugs, so Israel is going to defend its people against terrorists like Hamas that indiscriminately kill their own people," Johndroe said . "They need to stop. We have said in the past that they have a choice to make. You can't have one foot in politics and one foot in terror."
It was "completely unacceptable" for Hamas, which controls Gaza, to launch attacks on Israel after a truce lasting several months, said Gordon Johndroe, a spokesman for the National Security Council.
Some of the Israeli missiles struck in densely populated areas as children were leaving school, and women rushed into the streets frantically looking for their children.
Abdelrahman said:Hamas rockets killed 1 israeli
Israeli rockets killed 220 and COUNTING!
berkeman said:That would seem to be the key point:
"Cease fire" is supposed to mean something.
berkeman said:So you acknowledge there was a violation of the cease fire? Why would you decide to test the cease fire?
The targets were not civilian, and the civilian casualties are obviously sad, but if you wish to engage in war, what do you expect?Abdelrahman said:I don't know how you could take that angle when 200 (mostly civilians) were just slaughtered, this is by any means an unfair war, israel with it's (US Funded) war machine versus a couple of men with rockets.
Oh please, you will lose any argument that starts with such a ridiculous comparison.Could someone please tell me the difference between what Israel is doing now and what Germany did to the jews in WWII.
Could you tell me why a comparison between those two conflicts should be made?Abdelrahman said:I don't know how you could take that angle when 200 (mostly civilians) were just slaughtered, this is by any means an unfair war, israel with it's (US Funded) war machine versus a couple of men with rockets.
Could someone please tell me the difference between what Israel is doing now and what Germany did to the jews in WWII.
Abdelrahman said:http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/200812279451509662.html"
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Abdelrahman said:Hamas rockets killed 1 israeli
Israeli rockets killed 220 and COUNTING!
Abdelrahman said:Hamas rockets killed 1 israeli
Israeli rockets killed 220 and COUNTING!
Just a couple of points. The 1 Israeli civilian was killed AFTER Israel launched it's attacks and Israel broke the ceasefire weeks ago first by not lifting the blockade as they had agreed to do under the ceasefire terms and then with targeted assassinations of Hamas officials. In fact for Israel the ceasefire was simply business as usual. But to take up your point. If Israel had killed 1 Palestinian civilan and Hamas responded by killing 271 Israelis I wonder how many on here would be falling over themselves to justify such a response from Palestinians?TheStatutoryApe said:Were Israel to have fired first with minimal casualties with Hamas returning fire killing hundreds would you still object?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7774988.stmUN official slams Israel 'crimes'
The UN special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories has said Israel's policies there amount to a crime against humanity.
snip
He said the International Criminal Court should also investigate whether the Israeli civilian leaders and military commanders for the Gaza siege should be indicted and prosecuted for violations of international criminal law.
The last time there had been "such a flurry of denunciations by normally cautious UN officials" it was during the heyday of the apartheid government in South Africa, Mr Falk said.
"And still Israel maintains its Gaza siege in its full fury, allowing only barely enough food and fuel to enter to stave off mass famine and disease," Mr Falk said.
The targets were very definitely civilian. They went after the police force including dozens killed at a graduating ceremony and the chief of police.Evo said:The targets were not civilian, and the civilian casualties are obviously sad, but if you wish to engage in war, what do you expect?
Abdelrahman said:I can't even begin to comprehend how this argument could be made now, it's the same as saying that the Jews in a holocaust camp killed a Nazi officer.
Abdelrahman said:Could someone please tell me the difference between what Israel is doing now and what Germany did to the jews in WWII.
I don't know how you could take that angle when 200 (mostly civilians) were just slaughtered, this is by any means an unfair war, israel with it's (US Funded) war machine versus a couple of men with rockets.
Hamas had killed a grand total of exactly zero Israelis in the months preceding this attack whilst Israel has killed dozens of Palestinians in the same time frame. But eh, Palestinians are all terrorists so that's okay right?tiny-tim said:Hamas has for many months been killing as many Israeli civilians as it can … under international law, that is undoubtedly an act of war.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7779087.stm Then again she is by no means the only leading politician in Israel to promote a little ethnic cleansing but it seems such policies are only illegal if pursued by non-zionists."Among other things I will also be able to approach the Palestinian residents of Israel... and tell them: 'Your national aspirations lie elsewhere.'"
Art said:Hamas had killed a grand total of exactly zero Israelis in the months preceding this attack whilst Israel has killed dozens of Palestinians in the same time frame.
A Palestinian rocket exploded right outside a Sderot supermarket on Wednesday evening, December 17, in one of the worst Qassam attacks on Sderot since the ceasefire began. Rocket shrapnel lightly wounded three people, with one man suffering a light head wound, according to a MADA spokesperson on scene.
…
Since the ceasefire began on June 21, over 400 Qassam rockets have been fired at Sderot and the western Negev, making the number of rockets fired at Israel during this ceasefire significantly more than the number fired in the previous Hamas-Israel ceasefire in 2007. To date, over 10,000 Palestinian rockets have been fired at southern Israel since 2001.
Art said:Meanwhile the war warmongering, evil witch, Tzipi Livni, who recently suggested all Arabs living in Israel should be removed is really a peace loving humanitarian I suppose. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7779087.stm
"There is no question of carrying out a transfer or forcing them [Israeli Arabs] to leave," she told public radio.
"I am willing to give up a part of the country over which I believe we have rights so that Israel will remain a Jewish and democratic state in which citizens have equal rights, whatever their religion," she added.
The low number of deaths you keep referring to is, as I said previously, precisely ZERO! Whereas the Israelis have been far more successful in their attempts to kill Palestinians with dozens of 'successes' prior to Saturdays murderous assault.tiny-tim said:I just googled "sderot + ceasefire", and came up with http://www.jewlicious.com/2008/12/worst-rocket-attack-on-sderot-since-ceasefire/" …
As I said, Hamas has for many months been killing as many Israeli civilians as it can … under international law, that is undoubtedly an act of war. The low number of deaths (as opposed to "mere" injuries) is not for Hamas' want of trying, and does not make it any less an act of war.
I suggest you have another look then. She was referring to the 1 million Arabs living in the state of Israel, unless you are suggesting she intends handing over lumps of Israel to them. Somewhat unlikely don't you think Her qualifying remarks came AFTER there was an international outcry about her first statement.tiny-tim said:erm … "removed"? … the actual quote from Livni in that report is:
To me, that looks like exchanging land for peace.
Seems pretty unambiguous to me.In remarks to school children broadcast on Israeli radio, Ms Livni's said her solution for maintaining a Jewish and democratic state of Israel was "to have two distinct national entities".
"Among other things I will also be able to approach the Palestinian residents of Israel... and tell them: 'Your national aspirations lie elsewhere.'"
Arab MP Ahmed Tibi demanded that Ms Livni be absolutely open about what she meant, as befits a candidate for Israel's prime ministership.
"She must decide whether she means to leave 1m Arabs without political rights or a national identity, or whether she really intends to transfer 1m Arab citizens to the Palestinian state that will be established," he told Israeli army radio.
So Hamas is not very good at killing Jews. We know. But they really should know by now that if you mess with the bull too long, eventually you'll get the horns. Hamas had been poking that hornets nest with a stick for weeks before it swarmed them.Abdelrahman said:Hamas rockets killed 1 israeli
Israeli rockets killed 220 and COUNTING!
Perhaps - but either way, if it is a violation of the cease fire or just a unilateral resumption of hostilities by Hamas after it ended, it's still on Hamas.Vanadium 50 said:To be fair to Hamas, they did announce an end to the cease fire, so it's not exactly a violation.
Who said war was supposed to be fair? But hey, I'm a fair guy - I'll trade you those 400 Hamas rockets (from a quote above) for 400 Israeli laser guided bombs. Sound good to you?Abdelrahman said:I don't know how you could take that angle when 200 (mostly civilians) were just slaughtered, this is by any means an unfair war, israel with it's (US Funded) war machine versus a couple of men with rockets.
You should really look up Goodwin's law.Could someone please tell me the difference between what Israel is doing now and what Germany did to the jews in WWII.
By what logic should a response be proportional? (Hint: there is no such school of thought on warfare.)waht said:This is clearly an unproportional response by the Isreal, that serves no practical purpose other than to invite the hearts and minds of every Palestinian citizen to take up arms and fight. And at the expense of 200 dead (mostly civilian), and US military aid. Genius!
http://www.military-quotes.com/Sun-Tzu.htm"The art of using troops is this:
...When ten to the enemy's one, surround him;
...When five times his strength, attack him;
...If double his strength, divide him;
...If equally matched you may engage him;
...If weaker numerically, be capable of withdrawing;
...And if in all respects unequal, be capable of eluding him,
...for a small force is but booty for one more powerful."
- Sun Tzu, the Art Of War
Since that bears no resemblance to what happened, the response is obvious: the intentional killing of civilians by Hamas is a crime against humanity. It's the same in your fictional scenario as it is in real life.Art said:If Israel had killed 1 Palestinian civilan and Hamas responded by killing 271 Israelis I wonder how many on here would be falling over themselves to justify such a response from Palestinians?
For defending itself? Please.Israel is a terrorist state whose leaders should be tried for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Well try actually applying some logic then, instead of just making open-ended pronouncements. No one's going to do your work for you.This seems to turn logic on it's head. I find it amazing that so many on here are happy to try and justify mass murder.
Art said:… unless you are suggesting she intends handing over lumps of Israel to them
Seems pretty unambiguous to me."to have two distinct national entities".
"Among other things I will also be able to approach the Palestinian residents of Israel... and tell them: 'Your national aspirations lie elsewhere.'"
Her qualifying remarks came AFTER there was an international outcry about her first statement.
… Israeli Arab MKs asking (perfectly reasonable ) awkward pre-election questions.Politicians from the minority Arab community have demanded she clarify if it means that Arabs citizens will face loss of rights in Israel or expulsion.
But the Egyptian foreign minister has accused Hamas of not allowing injured Palestinians to leave Gaza to seek treatment, even though much-needed medical supplies are waiting at the nearby El-Arish airport.
...
Israel said it initially began easing the blockade, but this was halted when Hamas failed to fulfil what Israel says were agreed conditions, including ending all rocket fire and halting weapons smuggling.
Should Israel concede and open the border, would the violence stop? Would Hamas be satisfied? I'm not seeing it.Israel said three militants were spotted planting explosives in northern Gaza along the border fence. Soldiers crossed a few yards into Gaza and engaged the Palestinians, who threw grenades. The military said soldiers returned fire, hitting the three. Israeli media said they were killed, the first to die since the truce ended.
Spot the irony . Under the Geneva Convention, Paragraph 3 Article 43, police forces are categorised as civilians and their civilian status is further underlined in UN Resolution 690 (1979). but hey don't let a few facts stand in the way of your intellectual dishonesty.russ_watters said:By the way, we have standards of intellectual honesty here and some assertions and implications about the nature of the attacks by Israle have been made that are factually untrue. In particular:
-Most of the dead in Gaza are not civilians, they are Hamas security personnel. Hamas is a paramilitary organization and their police force most definitely are combatants.
-Israel is targeting military/government installations, not civilians.
.
http://assembly.coe.int/Documents/AdoptedText/ta79/ERES690.htmC. War and other emergency situations- occupation by a foreign power[3]
1. A police officer shall continue to perform his tasks of protecting persons and property during war and enemy occupation in the interests of the civilian population. For that reason he shall not have the status of "combatant", and the provisions of the Third Geneva Convention of 12 August 1949, relative to the treatment of prisoners of war, shall not apply.
2. The provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 12 August 1949, relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war, apply to the civilian police.
Art said:Under the Geneva Convention, Paragraph 3 Article 43, police forces are categorised as civilians and their civilian status is further underlined in UN Resolution 690 (1979). but hey don't let a few facts stand in the way of your intellectual dishonesty.
Part III : Status and treatment of protected persons #Section II : Aliens in the territory of a party to the conflict
ARTICLE 43
Any protected person who has been interned or placed in assigned residence shall be entitled to have such action reconsidered as soon as possible by an appropriate court or administrative board designated by the Detaining Power for that purpose. If the internment or placing in assigned residence is maintained, the court or administrative board shall periodically, and at least twice yearly, give consideration to his or her case, with a view to the favourable amendment of the initial decision, if circumstances permit.
Unless the protected persons concerned object, the Detaining Power shall, as rapidly as possible, give the Protecting Power the names of any protected persons who have been interned or subjected to assigned residence, or who have been released from internment or assigned residence. The decisions of the courts or boards mentioned in the first paragraph of the present Article shall also, subject to the same conditions, be notified as rapidly as possible to the Protecting Power.
Art said:http://assembly.coe.int/Documents/AdoptedText/ta79/ERES690.htm
C. War and other emergency situations- occupation by a foreign power[3] …
There's a slight difference. If the UK or the US declared itself a Christian state for Christians then I imagine members of minority religions would feel rather threatened.tiny-tim said:just as if Jews living in the UK or US want "national aspirations" as Jews, they have to look to Israel (but if they want national aspirations as Britons or Americans, they look to Britain or America) …
The PLO is irrelevant at the moment...Art said:A major stumbling block in the recognition of Israel by the PLO