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Chen
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We knew this would happen.Chen said:
And keeping him alive would have helped Israel?Adam said:Yes, the assassination (conventiently not punished by the international community) will increase attacks against Israel. Exactly what Israel wants. It will justify any further expansions and such.
Chen said:And keeping him alive would have helped Israel?
Obviously you have no idea who this person was and what kind of movement he had led. "wouldn't have hurt them"? Rantisis was the mastermind behind dozens of terrorist acts, so what makes him so harmless all of a sudden?master_coda said:It wouldn't have hurt them any more than killing him did. And at least they wouldn't have so much blood on their hands.
Chen said:Obviously you have no idea who this person was and what kind of movement he had led. "wouldn't have hurt them"? Rantisis was the mastermind behind dozens of terrorist acts, so what makes him so harmless all of a sudden?
Good idea, let's let them get away with it.master_coda said:The idea that killing a single person will significantly reduce the amount of terrorism is absurd. You could kill everyone in Hamas, and at best you would get a temporary reduction in the amount of terrorism. Pretending that you can eliminate terrorism by killing a few key people is wishful thinking.
Chen said:Good idea, let's let them get away with it.
Why does the US pursuit Bin Laden so hard then? I mean, it's just one person... it wouldn't stop terrorism, it would only increase it!
Chen said:Ok so it's either:
a) Kill Bin-Laden
b) Talk to Bin-Laden
c) Do nothing
What do you choose?
Adam said:Yes, the assassination (conventiently not punished by the international community) will increase attacks against Israel. Exactly what Israel wants. It will justify any further expansions and such.
How do I justify the killing? Easily - Rantisi is directly responsible for the deaths of dozens of Israelis (if not more), and deserves to be killed. It is a very simple equation.master_coda said:Well, you didn't even point out the very popular idea of capturing him...but I don't think you really understand my point. You seem to be fixated on the idea that attacking specific terrorists is a productive way of fighting terrorism. It isn't. Rantisi had sent hundreds of Palestinians on suicide missions (only few of which managed to carry it out), so every Palestinian mother should be happy that he is gone now.
Anyone killed is easily replacable, so it doesn't weaken them significantly from a personel point of view. It clearly doesn't act as a deterent.
So, how do you justify such killings? You can't do it in the name of fighting terrorism...it clearly doesn't reduce terrorism.
Chen said:How do I justify the killing? Easily - Rantisi is directly responsible for the deaths of dozens of Israelis (if not more), and deserves to be killed. It is a very simple equation.
Not true. Those friends that died, were they killed by civilians? By women? By children and babies? No, so why do the terrorists "return the favor" by murdering innocent Israeli families in the middle of a restaurant or while riding the bus?master_coda said:This happens to be the exact same equation that the terrorists use. They see their friends and relatives die at the hands of the Israelis, so they respond in kind.
Chen said:Not true. Those friends that died, were they killed by civilians? By women? By children and babies? No, so why do the terrorists "return the favor" by murdering innocent Israeli families in the middle of a restaurant or while riding the bus?
Chen said:I don't agree that this cycle of death is endless. I believe it can be ended by a mutual agreement signed by both parties, and I also believe that there are people on the Palestinian side that wish to reach such an agreement. However, these people are not doing enough. Maybe because they are afraid, I don't know. But if the Palestinian government wants peace, it needs to make some sacrifices. For example, fight the terror rather than help the Hamas. Last time we tried to make a temporary truce by both parties for a period of two weeks, it was violated by the Palestinians after a couple of days.
I know it sounds like a "he started it!" argument. And you are probably going to tell me that "one of you needs to rise above itself and end this fight". But this is not kindergarten, and we are not arguing over pieces of lego. The lives of many people, both Israeli and Palestinian, are hanging on the balance here. We can't just pull our forces out of there, nor can we stop our fight against terror, because Israeli citizens will lose their lives. Israeli fights terrorists to keep its citizens safe, whereas Palestinian terrorists murder people to sabotage any chance of peace.
I think the only way to end this is by cooperation, both militarily and politically. Israel also has its extremist that try to hurt the Arabs, but when was the last time you heard about an Israeli teenager walking into a Palestinian restaurant carrying a bomb? Over the last 20 years I can count the number of terrorist acts executed by Israeli extremists on just one of my hands. Two will not be enough to count the terrorist acts coming from Palestinian in the last month.
(By the way, it is nice to have an argument on this subject with intelligent people, for once. On most other forums that try to discuss these issues threads usually end in a flame war.)
Chen said:I was trying to convey the feeling of "We are doing our job; now it's time that they do theirs". I can't see how anything new can happen until the Palestinian government takes control of the terrorists and at least tries to stop them.
master_coda said:Of course, this highlights the optimial solution to the terrorists Israel is killing...it would be much better if they were aprehended and punished by the Palestininan government. Unfortunatly they seem to be too weak to do anything useful at all.
kat said:The terrorist are...members of the government...there is not this clear separation you appear to believe there is.
Lol, you can...you can..but just don't expect others to believe it. I think the lesson was learned during oslo..you remember when Israel armed arafats police force in good faith, only to have it used against them.master_coda said:If people are allowed to speculate about the fantasy world where killing terrorists actually stops terrorism, why can't I imagine places where terrorism is ended without violence?
kat said:Lol, you can...you can..but just don't expect others to believe it. I think the lesson was learned during oslo..you remember when Israel armed arafats police force in good faith, only to have it used against them.
That is correct. As soon as the Palestinian government starts to take care of the terrorism, IDF's presence in their territory would not be needed. Do you agree? In the absence of any action from their government, Israel has no choice but to do away with the terrorists on its own.master_coda said:Of course, this highlights the optimial solution to the terrorists Israel is killing...it would be much better if they were aprehended and punished by the Palestininan government. Unfortunatly they seem to be too weak to do anything useful at all.
Chen said:That is correct. As soon as the Palestinian government starts to take care of the terrorism, IDF's presence in their territory would not be needed. Do you agree? In the absence of any action from their government, Israel has no choice but to do away with the terrorists on its own.
kat said:Rantisi was a child preying (palestinian and israeli), hateful murderous scum. The world is a better place without him.
Chen said:That's another thing... it is a lot more than "a few thugs". Your newspapers only report the big fish, like Yasin and Rantisi, but we kill a lot more terrorists every day, and that's only from the reports in the Israeli press (who knows how many more we kill without telling anyone).
Well, let's look at it from the other direction then: You've told us how they should not deal with the problem, now tell us how Israel should deal with the problem.master_coda said:Fine, they catch a lot of thugs. What does it matter if they catch 10 terrorists or 10,000 if another 10 or 10,000 replace them? This isn't a problem that can be attacked "one terrorist at a time"; The supply of terrorists is effectively unlimited.
I'm not sure this discussion is doing anything other than going in circles...perhaps we should just agree to disagree.
russ_watters said:Well, let's look at it from the other direction then: You've told us how they should not deal with the problem, now tell us how Israel should deal with the problem.
I appreciate your honesty. Your suggestions aren't bad, but clearly this isn't an 'x won't work, they should do y' situation. No, using force isn't a perfect solution, but I do think its the best.master_coda said:Oh, I sure wish I had a great solution.
Looking at how many times neighboring Arab countries have tried to destroy Israel, it's quite clear that peace is not the option Arabs have in mind.Israel could put a great deal of effort into supporting non-violent groups among the Palestinians; this is difficult though, since obviously for any aid they provide, at least some will end up in the hands of the terrorists. Plus aiding these groups may just get them labeled as collaborators, anyway...