No conservation of momentum with bouncing ball?

In summary: Ah- I see. little mass x big velocity = huge mass x tiny velocity. So I suppose in deep space the wall would actually start moving back, and the conservation would be more obvious.In summary, the conservation of momentum applies in a closed system where the two objects have a momentum vector that is different from each other.
  • #1
nhmllr
185
1
So I was thinking about the conservation of momentum. If you throw a handball at a wall, the wall will provide an equal normal force, thus sending the handball back at the same velocity (in a perfect scenario). The ball has a momentum vector, the wall never moves, and thus only has a zero-amplitude vector. But in this closed system, the net momentum vector changes! How?
 
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  • #2
The ball is not perfectly elastic: some of the spring energy in the bounce is converted to heat.
 
  • #3
russ_watters said:
The ball is not perfectly elastic: some of the spring energy in the bounce is converted to heat.

So what would happen if the ball was perfectly elastic? It would still bounce off, right?
 
  • #4
It would bounce back with an equal momentum to what it started with.
 
  • #5
Sound is also a form of energy in which the initial energy of the ball gets converted to, so it loses energy there. In a perfectly elastic system the momentum is conserved completely and none is wasted. meaning p = p' (momentum before = momentum after)
 
  • #6
russ_watters said:
It would bounce back with an equal momentum to what it started with.

But the vector is in a completely different direction!
 
  • #7
nhmllr said:
So I was thinking about the conservation of momentum. If you throw a handball at a wall, the wall will provide an equal normal force, thus sending the handball back at the same velocity (in a perfect scenario). The ball has a momentum vector, the wall never moves, and thus only has a zero-amplitude vector. But in this closed system, the net momentum vector changes! How?

the wall does move, except that it's connected to the ground (aka Earth) which means it only appears to not move. If you really could isolate the ball and wall/earth system, the momentum would be conserved. Of course, look at the masses you're talking about and you can understand why the wall seems to not move.
 
  • #8
Pengwuino said:
the wall does move, except that it's connected to the ground (aka Earth) which means it only appears to not move. If you really could isolate the ball and wall/earth system, the momentum would be conserved. Of course, look at the masses you're talking about and you can understand why the wall seems to not move.

Ah- I see. little mass x big velocity = huge mass x tiny velocity. So I suppose in deep space the wall would actually start moving back, and the conservation would be more obvious.

Thanks
 
  • #9
Don't forget that when you threw the ball, the conservation law also applied and the Earth rotated backwards a tiny bit.
The amount it moves forwards would be twice that value for a perfectly elastic collision and an equal value for a totally inelastic collision. All the Mv's add up to zero in every case.
 

1. How can there be no conservation of momentum with a bouncing ball?

Conservation of momentum states that the total momentum of a closed system remains constant. However, when a ball bounces, it experiences an external force from the ground, causing a change in its momentum. Therefore, conservation of momentum does not apply in this scenario.

2. Does this mean that energy is not conserved in a bouncing ball?

No, conservation of energy still applies in a bouncing ball. While momentum may not be conserved due to external forces, the total energy of the system remains constant. Some of the ball's kinetic energy may be converted to other forms, such as sound or heat, but the total energy remains the same.

3. Can a ball ever have perfectly elastic collisions?

In theory, yes, a ball can have a perfectly elastic collision. This means that no energy is lost during the collision, and the ball would bounce back to its initial height. However, in real-life scenarios, some energy is always lost due to friction and other factors, making perfectly elastic collisions rare.

4. How does the material of the ball affect the conservation of momentum?

The material of the ball can affect the conservation of momentum in a bouncing ball. For example, a more elastic material will experience a smaller change in momentum during a bounce, while a less elastic material will experience a larger change. This is because the ball's elasticity determines how much kinetic energy is converted to other forms during the bounce.

5. Can the surface on which the ball bounces affect the conservation of momentum?

Yes, the surface on which the ball bounces can affect the conservation of momentum. A harder surface, such as concrete, will cause a larger change in momentum compared to a softer surface, such as grass. This is because the harder surface exerts a greater force on the ball, resulting in a larger change in momentum.

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