The day I died (By the BBC)


by Forestman
Tags: died
nismaratwork
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#37
Mar11-11, 02:41 PM
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The best that does is challenge our assumptions about the process of brain death, rather than your more, "on-off" binary view. This is not new, and in the context of a prospective study in which one reports... is not impressive.

Oh well... people want to believe...
Forestman
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#38
Mar12-11, 09:22 PM
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Pftest, thank you for posting that.
nismaratwork
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#39
Mar12-11, 09:28 PM
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Quote Quote by Forestman View Post
Pftest, thank you for posting that.
Why?
Forestman
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#40
Mar12-11, 09:43 PM
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The quote from the study that he showed talked about how a particular woman had perceptions when she showed no measurable brain activity. Its an example of why the theory that the mind comes from matter cannot explain everything that happens with the mind.

If you watch the video that I posted at the beginning, not the very first one though, but the ones that You Tube shows that are next then you can watch about this particular woman. Also on this movie there is one part that talks about a theory of consciousness that states that the mind might result from quantum superposition in the microtubuals(might not be spelled right) of the neurons.
nismaratwork
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#41
Mar12-11, 09:49 PM
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Quote Quote by Forestman View Post
The quote from the study that he showed talked about how a particular woman had perceptions when she showed no measurable brain activity. Its an example of why the theory that the mind comes from matter cannot explain everything that happens with the mind.

If you watch the video that I posted at the beginning, not the very first one though, but the ones that You Tube shows that are next then you can watch about this particular woman. Also on this movie there is one part that talks about a theory of consciousness that states that the mind might result from quantum superposition in the microtubuals(might not be spelled right) of the neurons.
Ahhh... the Penrose view, I see... although I don't subscribe to it.

I appreciate your use of "no measureable" rather than "none" by the way... it's far more accurate and telling. My concern here above all is that, "Sabom22 mentions a young American woman who had complications during brain surgery for a cerebral aneurysm...". That's the kind of thing I need more than a mention of, I'd need to see some evidence that rules out obvious malfunctions or misinterprations.

I'm also curious why, when they believed that she was clinically dead, that they would continue the surgery.
Evo
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#42
Mar12-11, 09:52 PM
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Quote Quote by Forestman View Post
The quote from the study that he showed talked about how a particular woman had perceptions when she showed no measurable brain activity. Its an example of why the theory that the mind comes from matter cannot explain everything that happens with the mind.

If you watch the video that I posted at the beginning, not the very first one though, but the ones that You Tube shows that are next then you can watch about this particular woman. Also on this movie there is one part that talks about a theory of consciousness that states that the mind might result from quantum superposition in the microtubuals(might not be spelled right) of the neurons.
There is no evidence that she had any thoughts while her EEG was flat (and there is now proof that significant brain activity occurs that an EEG cannot detect, this is from fMRI's). The fMRI can spot where the braion activity is in response to questions or stmului. We know from studies which parts of the brain show activity in response to certain functions. She most likely hallucinated before or after the surgery. Of course she will only remember it after she comes out of the procedure.
Forestman
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#43
Mar12-11, 09:57 PM
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Quote Quote by Evo View Post
There is no evidence that she had any thoughts while her EEG was flat (and there is now proof that significant brain activity occurs that an EEG cannot detect, this is from fMRI's). The fMRI can spot where the brain activity is in response to questions or stmului. We know from studies which parts of the brain show activity in response to certain functions. She most likely hallucinated before or after the surgery. Of course she will only remember it after she comes out of the procedure.
That would be unlikely because she was able to describe the special instruments that were used in her operation, and she was able to repeat conversations that she over heard while out of her body, which was at a time when she had no brain activity, or blood in her brain.
nismaratwork
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#44
Mar12-11, 09:59 PM
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Quote Quote by Forestman View Post
That would be unlikely because she was able to describe the special instruments that were used in her operation, and she was able to repeat conversations that she over heard while out of her body, which was at a time when she had no brain activity, or blood in her brain.
If she had no oxygen whatsoever in her brain, she would be dead, apoptisis would be rampant and catastrophic. You NEVER lose blood volume like that to the entire brain, and live.

MEG in addition to what Evo said, also shows that EEG is hardly a magical device to detect all activity.
Forestman
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#45
Mar12-11, 10:02 PM
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Quote Quote by nismaratwork View Post
Ahhh... the Penrose view, I see... although I don't subscribe to it.

I appreciate your use of "no measureable" rather than "none" by the way... it's far more accurate and telling. My concern here above all is that, "Sabom22 mentions a young American woman who had complications during brain surgery for a cerebral aneurysm...". That's the kind of thing I need more than a mention of, I'd need to see some evidence that rules out obvious malfunctions or misinterprations.

I'm also curious why, when they believed that she was clinically dead, that they would continue the surgery.
She was made clinically dead on purpose, it was called operation standstill. It was done in order to remove the aneurysm. Her heart was stopped from beating, her lungs were stopped from breathing, and the blood was drained from her head. To prevent her body from decaying she was chilled down in temperature.
Forestman
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#46
Mar12-11, 10:04 PM
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Quote Quote by nismaratwork View Post
If she had no oxygen whatsoever in her brain, she would be dead, apoptisis would be rampant and catastrophic. You NEVER lose blood volume like that to the entire brain, and live.

MEG in addition to what Evo said, also shows that EEG is hardly a magical device to detect all activity.
Her whole body was kept cold in order to stop her cells from breaking down.
Evo
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#47
Mar12-11, 10:06 PM
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Quote Quote by Forestman View Post
That would be unlikely because she was able to describe the special instruments that were used in her operation, and she was able to repeat conversations that she over heard while out of her body, which was at a time when she had no brain activity, or blood in her brain.
Everyone knows the instruments in an operating room. Like I said, I woke up during several operations and heard and saw what was going on before I went back under. I also heard the doctor in my last operation telling them that I wouldn't remember. I am not saying that it's impossible that she had an OBE, but diving over the cliff to believing without question or proof is over the top.
nismaratwork
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#48
Mar12-11, 10:07 PM
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Quote Quote by Forestman View Post
She was made clinically dead on purpose, it was called operation standstill. It was done in order to remove the aneurysm. Her heart was stopped from beating, her lungs were stopped from breathing, and the blood was drained from her head. To prevent her body from decaying she was chilled down in temperature.
All of what you say is true, but that isn't the loss of all oxygen to the brain, just the supply. The hypothermic treatment slows apoptosis, but slows ALL activity, making an EEG a questionable measure.

The rest of her body being 'dead' is merely a formality until the brain follows, and the sign of that is apoptosis of neurons. It's not preventing decay exactly, but this pre-programmed cell-death/suicide...

Again, I'm not seeing any kind of control her that assures she didn't learn of her operation through secondary means, along with memories of what was said during the operation. Remember, it does seem that hearing lingers even as the brain begins to 'shut down'.

Mainly, the issue is not that this didn't happen, but that it's just an illustration of the complexity of dying, much as sleep and consciousness are not always clear. This is only amazing if you presuppose that she was dead... she wasn't.
nismaratwork
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#49
Mar12-11, 10:08 PM
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Quote Quote by Evo View Post
Everyone knows the instruments in an operating room. Like I said, I woke up during several operations and heard and saw what was going on before I went back under. I also heard the doctor in my last operation telling them that I wouldn't remember.
Isn't that fun? "Hemostat... she'll.. don't worry..."


Oh yes, anesthesia is an art, more than a science...
Forestman
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#50
Mar12-11, 10:20 PM
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Here is a clip from the movie.

Anyway this is happening after she has been put under clinical death.

The small little Christian part at the front was not part of the original movie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SBscOE2zBA
Evo
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#51
Mar12-11, 10:39 PM
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Quote Quote by Forestman View Post
Here is a clip from the movie.

Anyway this is happening after she has been put under clinical death.

The small little Christian part at the front was not part of the original movie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SBscOE2zBA
Now she's talking about a light pulling her as she stood looking at herself. In an earlier video, she said she felt someone (a nurse) was standing next to her talking, no light.
Forestman
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#52
Mar12-11, 10:55 PM
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Those were from two different parts of the movie, the link that I just posted was not the same link that I posted at the beginning of the thread. They are all from the same movie, but from different parts, and dealt with different people. The first clip did deal with a lady who was once a nurse, and then this clip that I just posted dealt with Pam Reynolds.

Here is another part of the movie, and it deals with Roger Penrose's theory on consciousness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MH7R55EDTU
Evo
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#53
Mar12-11, 11:04 PM
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Quote Quote by Forestman View Post
Those were from two different parts of the movie, the link that I just posted was not the same link that I posted at the beginning of the thread. They are all from the same movie, but from different parts, and dealt with different people. The first clip did deal with a lady who was once a nurse, and then this clip that I just posted dealt with Pam Reynolds.

Here is another part of the movie, and it deals with Roger Penrose's theory on consciousness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MH7R55EDTU
I'm talking about videos about her that I looked up on my own. Her story has changed over time. I've learned that there is no sense in arguing with those that have already drunk the koolaid. So, if you choose to believe this, there's nothing I can say to make you see it objectively. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.
Forestman
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#54
Mar12-11, 11:05 PM
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I apologize.


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