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The more political thread besides Japan Earthquake: nuclear plants scientific one

by jlduh
Tags: scientific
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zapperzero
#253
Jun3-11, 09:10 AM
P: 1,042
Quote Quote by Danuta View Post
Oh dear.
It does get quite tiresome, especially the second time around. I am a Chernobyl downwinder, you see, just like most of Europe. Unlike most of Europe, I was living in one of those places where it got bad enough that iodine pills were distributed. The populace was told to distill water for drinking/cooking and then store it for a week or so... Drink bottled water in the meantime, they said.

So I tend to do this weird schadenfreude chuckle when nuclear shills like QuantumPion do their little song and dance. Keep it up, lil' buddies. Soon enough, it will be YOUR kids lining up terrified in a school yard to get foul-tasting little yellow pills. You'll even get to try and explain what they're for, when they come home. That is, unless saner minds than yours prevail.
robinson
#254
Jun3-11, 09:21 AM
P: 201
Let's try and avoid the oh so human desire to insult our opponents.

Which must be hard if you have ever suffered from radioactive fallout.
Danuta
#255
Jun3-11, 09:42 AM
P: 100
Quote Quote by robinson View Post
Let's try and avoid the oh so human desire to insult our opponents.

Which must be hard if you have ever suffered from radioactive fallout.
Hey, and you know what I find personally insulting? Nuclear industry illogical happyspeak bullcrap.
robinson
#256
Jun3-11, 09:46 AM
P: 201
I find all dishonest manipulation and human lies rub me the wrong way. The thing is, it's so much a part of human nature, and it is so prevalent, getting upset over it can make you crazy. It's like raging over bad drivers and rude people.
Dmytry
#257
Jun3-11, 09:47 AM
P: 505
Quote Quote by QuantumPion View Post
What is your point? That if Chernobyl was 3 km closer to the population center that 20,000 people would have died of radiation poisoning? Sorry, but that is just bologna.
Sorry, but that is not. If Chernobyl was 3km closer and the wind was blowing at Pripyat', without extremely quick evacuation easily ten thousand people could have died of acute symptoms. Just like the trees right downwind died (trees have much larger lethal dose btw).

Really, that's the thing with nukes... accidents happen, ookay, but the worst thing is that nobody wants to learn any from the accidents that happen. Worse than that, some people make up and spread lies such as about Chernobyl being in middle of Pripyat, of how late the evacuation was done, and so on. Lucky weather, combined with such lies result in decrease in the safety.
zapperzero
#258
Jun3-11, 10:01 AM
P: 1,042
Quote Quote by robinson View Post
Let's try and avoid the oh so human desire to insult our opponents.

Which must be hard if you have ever suffered from radioactive fallout.
Suffered from? I don't think so, not yet. I took my iodine and got my shivers and heat spells just like everyone else. Not too bad.

Should I come down with cancer, as about half (iirc) of Europe's population eventually does, I could blame it on Chernobyl, but I won't be able to make it stick, not even to my own satisfaction, let alone that of an international court.

But when I call someone a shill, I do not do it to insult, rather to explain what I perceive as the reason for their behavior.
desertlabs
#259
Jun3-11, 10:30 AM
P: 15
Quote Quote by zapperzero View Post

But when I call someone a shill, I do not do it to insult, rather to explain what I perceive as the reason for their behavior.
I understand. I call them nuclear lobbyists.

Here are some links to lists of nuclear accidents.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/galleries/2715/1/
http://www.lutins.org/nukes.html
http://www.economist.com/blogs/daily...tive_accidents
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/...n-history.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...lear_accidents

Here is a link to recent findings about the wildlife at Chernobyl.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/0...hernobyl/all/1
zapperzero
#260
Jun3-11, 11:11 AM
P: 1,042
I felt bad about having perhaps insulted someone, as I am wont to do when my feelings run high. Then I found this post by QuantumPion here:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=160725
I currently have a bachelors in nuclear engineering and work for a utility company.

It follows that his or her continued wellbeing depends in a significant proportion on the continued existence and wealth of the nuclear industry. So now I'm thinking that all of QuantumPion's pro-nuclear posts should be accepted, if at all, at a rather sharp discount.

EDIT: to be honest, I was relieved to find that QuantumPion is not a sockpuppet account created specially for this current emergency, having been established in 2007. Sockpuppets are much, much harder to deal with than honest (and earnest) amateur propagandists.
robinson
#261
Jun3-11, 11:22 AM
P: 201
I tend to avoid any online discussion of nuclear power because it is virtually impossible to discuss it factually. Be it the cost, the environmental effects, the accidents, the risks, or the long term storage problem, or the ongoing Fukushima disasters, the things first sacrificed seem to be logic and factual data.
zapperzero
#262
Jun3-11, 11:51 AM
P: 1,042
Quote Quote by robinson View Post
I tend to avoid any online discussion of nuclear power because it is virtually impossible to discuss it factually. Be it the cost, the environmental effects, the accidents, the risks, or the long term storage problem, or the ongoing Fukushima disasters, the things first sacrificed seem to be logic and factual data.
The lack of data is what's most galling. In the present crisis there's a conspicuous lack of "official" fallout surveys and emissions tallies, workers don't have dosimeters or even film badges for some strange reason, whole body counts seem to be unheard of unless someone actually steps in 1 Sv/h water and private citizens with dosimeters stumble upon radioactive sludge heaps and so on and so forth and it gets real tiresome after a while.

Even the tech guys and gals in the disaster physics thread are getting tired of having so little useful data to play with. But with every sensor they add and every bit of damage they document, NISA & TEPCO officials are also adding years to their possible prison sentences and yen in liability to their balance sheets, respectively, and they know it.
gmax137
#263
Jun3-11, 01:31 PM
P: 844
Quote Quote by zapperzero View Post
I felt bad about having perhaps insulted someone, as I am wont to do when my feelings run high. Then I found this post by QuantumPion here:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=160725
I currently have a bachelors in nuclear engineering and work for a utility company.

It follows that his or her continued wellbeing depends in a significant proportion on the continued existence and wealth of the nuclear industry. So now I'm thinking that all of QuantumPion's pro-nuclear posts should be accepted, if at all, at a rather sharp discount.

...
Wow, if you applied that logic consistently you'd never do anything unless you did it yourself. Toilet backed up? Better call the carpenter, you know that plumber makes his living off broken pipes...

[EDIT} oh yeah, don't bother looking, I've been a 'shill' for the "nuke complex" for over 30 years.
Luca Bevil
#264
Jun3-11, 01:43 PM
P: 87
Quote Quote by gmax137 View Post
Wow, if you applied that logic consistently you'd never do anything unless you did it yourself. Toilet backed up? Better call the carpenter, you know that plumber makes his living off broken pipes...

[EDIT} oh yeah, don't bother looking, I've been a 'shill' for the "nuke complex" for over 30 years.
Well it was rather clear from both your technical proficiency and an overall positive attitude toward nuclear power generation.

However I remember an interesting discussion with you.
QuantumPrion instead was asserting opinions about the Chernobyl consequences that are quite simply revoltant.

I would welcome experience and opinions different from my own, I would not welcome any intentional distorsion of the truth.
Dmytry
#265
Jun3-11, 05:29 PM
P: 505
Ahh, the guy who posted this
Quote Quote by QuantumPion View Post
Pripyat was a city of over 50,000 people, and the power plant was right in the middle of it. Furthermore, the population was not evacuated until a several days after the accident occurred. Yet still, the only immediate and confirmed deaths were the ~60 firefighters directly exposed. Try again (but please check the facts first next time).
works in nuke industry?
I was giving him benefit of the doubt, that he was unwittingly repeating a bunch of gross falsehoods, but...

It is the case, unfortunately, that people tend to put online disinformation in favour of their self-interest. Some people do it subtly, trying to maintain plausibility, and themselves appearing reasonable and neutral (the misinformation would be in details), some do it over the top, trying to influence the people who tend to look at debate and think the truth is in the middle.
I'm giving benefit of the doubt here, you know. I'd rather the nuclear power plants be run by people who's deliberately posting misinformation and themselves know just how bad the disasters were, than by genuinely incompetent/clueless. Perhaps I am rather seeing it in too positive light.
Perhaps they are not liars. Perhaps they genuinely have poor understanding of the risks from the machinery they are operating or designing. Perhaps they genuinely do not understand that a nuclear power plant or a fuel reprocessing facility is a massive toxic repository, far in exceed of any chemical plant in terms of number of human LD50s stored and accumulated on-site - and it has to be treated as such.
Perhaps they genuinely believe that Chernobyl was in middle of Pripyat and that Pripyat was not evacuated for several days, and thus see Chernobyl as genuine proof of how safe nuclear industry is. If that is so - given that we are already doing the best to ensure competence of nuclear power plant operators and designers, if nonetheless such levels of incompetence slip in - perhaps there's nothing that can be done and nuclear power plants have to be closed.
MiceAndMen
#266
Jun3-11, 09:39 PM
P: 276
Quote Quote by etudiant View Post
Short of making this a global effort, it is hard to see what TEPCO could have done additional.
Presumably, the global effort option was rejected both for operational as well as political reasons, ie how do you coordinate a nuclear emergency with a polyglot crew that cannot talk to each other?.
I can think of 6 things TEPCO could have done differently, or at least with more urgency, right off the top of my head. I don't want to argue (or even list) every point, but google "tepco slow" and you'll find 1.8 million hits on the subject. They're not all uninformed or agenda-pushing points of view, either; there are many valid and legitimate criticisms being leveled at TEPCO even after you discard the cranks and rabid anti-nuke crowd.

They face a gargantuan task, there is no doubt about that. It remains to be seen whether or not they are capable of managing it. Either way, in my opinion the primary reason it has not become a global cleanup operation is this: money. If the perceived risk outside of Japan becomes a serious issue, then this may change, but the cost of the cleanup in money, manpower and lives is an unknown unknowable variable at present, and nobody who was not responsible for it will voluntarily assume any of that cost or risk right now.
htf
#267
Jun4-11, 01:24 AM
P: 57
Quote Quote by SteveElbows View Post
I still dont see why this means it has to be earthquake generated. Surely the state of the reactor due to core melting is enough to cause problems by this stage.
There recently was a report that clearly showed that reactor #1 was damaged during the earthquake. It was a TEPCO insider who disclosed information to the press. Shortly after the earthquake workers tried to enter reactor #1 but could't because of high radioactivity levels. What else but structural damages caused by the earthquake could explain that? Core melting had not yet started. And why did the emergency cooling system of reactor #1 fail much earlier than in units 2 and 3?

You may say this is not officially approved information. But there is one thing that is for sure: TEPCO and the Japanese government have been laying and down-playing the accident since the disaster started. And they still are. They only admit what is evident.
robinson
#268
Jun4-11, 08:29 AM
P: 201
It seems terribly important for the pro nuclear voices to insist the earthquakes couldn't have caused any damage at all. It's easy enough to see why. But it's politics, not science or physics driving that train of thought.
andybwell
#269
Jun4-11, 11:15 PM
P: 46
Tepco starting to "come clean" "After almost three months, there no sign of stabilizing the situation".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0xJy...&feature=feedu
andybwell
#270
Jun4-11, 11:25 PM
P: 46
You guys and gals, of course, knew this all along. Right?

"The dangers of fukushima are greater than we think."

http://us1.campaign-archive1.com/?u=...&id=68c85cc08a

http://www.chrismartenson.com/marten...uation-worsens


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