Did Worf / Spock speak English?

[newjerseyrunner]

In an episode of next generation, worf experiences deja vu during a poker game. He calls it by its Klingon name though, indicating that he speaks English and just doesn't know some words. Is this consistent throughout the Star Trek alien crewmen? I assumed he always spoke Klingon and the universal translator did the work. I remember that Worf was raise by humans, but what about Spock?

 

[DrStupid]

I remember that Worf was raise by humans, but what about Spock?

Spock's mother was human.

 

[Vanadium 50]

All aliens speak English. More amazingly time travelers have discovered that Julius Caesar spoke English instead of Latin! And with a mid-Atlantic US accent.

 

[russ_watters]

I remember that Worf was raise by humans, but what about Spock?

[facepalm] Spock's struggle with being half human was practically what defined him!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spock#Appearances

 

[russ_watters]

All aliens speak English.

Of course they speak English! It's been the de facto universal language since the US became the world's only superpower some 400 years ago! Everyone learns it as a kid!

 

[rootone]

In an episode of next generation, worf experiences deja vu during a poker game.

Cue Q.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

Spock knew English, but someone on that set was just talkin' Shat.

 

[StatGuy2000]

You know that the only time I recall Vulcans were ever heard speaking their own language was in Star Trek II The Wrath of Khan, where Saavik (portrayed by a young pre-Cheers Kirstey Alley) and Spock were speaking to each other about Admiral Kirk.

 

[newjerseyrunner]

Yeah, but they never portray anyone speaking their own language. In TOS they came across a WWII Japanese pilot. He said astonished that everyone else appeared to be speaking Japanese, but we the audience always heard him speak English.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Yeah, but they never portray anyone speaking their own language. In TOS they came across a WWII Japanese pilot. He said astonished that everyone else appeared to be speaking Japanese, but we the audience always heard him speak English.

The wonders of the 1960s TV budgets of the day -- who cares about subtitles?

 

[Algr]

Yeah, but they never portray anyone speaking their own language. In TOS they came across a WWII Japanese pilot. He said astonished that everyone else appeared to be speaking Japanese, but we the audience always heard him speak English.

Was that TOS? I thought it was Voyager.

 

[newjerseyrunner]

Was that TOS? I thought it was Voyager.

Honestly not sure. I thought it was TOS, Roddenberry liked to have characters from former enemy states like the USSR and Japan. It may have been though, been a while since I've watched either.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Honestly not sure. I thought it was TOS, Roddenberry liked to have characters from former enemy states like the USSR and Japan. It may have been though, been a while since I've watched either.

It was definitely Voyager -- the episode was called "The 37's", where the Voyager crew discovers a group of humans (including Amelia Earhart, portrayed by TV actress Sharon Lawrence) who were abducted from Earth in 1937.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_37's

I remember in the episode that Captain Janeway explains to the revived group of humans (which included a Japanese soldier), that the Universal Translator was incorporated into the com signal in the clip on their uniforms.

Aside: That's not to suggest TOS didn't have some similar episode -- it's been a while since I've watched it.

 

[DrClaude]

Spock knew English, but someone on that set was just talkin' Shat.

Spock knew, English, but someone, on that, set, was just, talkin' Shat.

Spoiler: Reference

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Shatner commas

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

Spock knew, English, but someone, on that, set, was just, talkin' Shat.

Spoiler: Reference

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Shatner commas

Never heard of, that, before, now.

 

[clope023]

On Deep Space Nine; Nog, Rom, and Quark are sent back to 1945 for an episode where their translators aren't working and they're seen speaking Ferengi.

 

[rkolter]

So, meta-thinking a little bit here - if everyone can afford a universal translator, and it sure seems like that is the case, then does the spoken language really exist anymore? Mastery of the spoken language is a skill. Has it been reduced to an esoteric skill? What would happen if there was a calamity and all the translators broke at once? Would a lot of people find themselves at a loss for words, or unable to pronounce the words they want to say?

Speaking of which - what about babies? A universal translator should be able to take whatever form of communication a sentient being has, and translate it - so a baby, at least one old enough to say their first words, should be fluent in English. Imagine a six month old screaming it's fool head off, red faced, while the translator overlays and tunes out that screech with "Mommy, I am hungry and I am tired, and I bit my tongue while crying. I need comforting please."

How do these translators translate? Someone wrote the software. Sometimes they have to be updated. I would love to be the guy who hacks the translator network and replaces all translations of the word "Yes" with "No", or changes the default language to "Cow".

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

You have to be able to form sentences.

 

[rootone]

I think the star trek translators were stand alone devices, so that eliminates most of the hacking concern.
However I don't think such a device is feasible realistically as it would have to be dependent on there being a common language which all other languages could be reduced to.
Mathematical statements do mean the same in every language, but everything else is related to culture and context, which vary widely,
Often there is no direct equivalent phrase between one language and another, so even the best human translators need to improvise, which basically is an art form,
Machines by definition can't do art or apply imagination, or comprehend jokes.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

I think the star trek translators were stand alone devices, so that eliminates most of the hacking concern.
However I don't think such a device is feasible realistically as it would have to be dependent on there being a common language which all other languages could be reduced to.
Mathematical statements do mean the same in every language, but everything else is related to culture and context, which vary widely,
Often there is no direct equivalent phrase between one language and another, so even the best human translators need to improvise, which basically is an art form,
Machines by definition can't do art or apply imagination, or comprehend jokes.

Jack Chalker's Well of Souls had translators. One character advised that when the language started to sound too precise it meant the translator was "guessing".

 

[newjerseyrunner]

How do these translators translate? Someone wrote the software. Sometimes they have to be updated. I would love to be the guy who hacks the translator network and replaces all translations of the word "Yes" with "No", or changes the default language to "Cow".

Nobody writes translators. Even today, translators teach themselves how to translate.

 

[Algr]

The translators once managed floating-gas-entity to English. Speaking Cow or Baby (Dr Who) is just as plausible.

 

[rootone]

Next time I visit the Netherlands (soon) I will try to get by with my limited amount of Dutch.
It's sort of almost English, but a bit German and Norwegian as well.

 

[XZ923]

I know exactly what episode you're talking about (it's the one where they get stuck in the repeating-time loop colliding with Kelsey Grammer's ship). I think the simplest explanation is simply that Worf is fluent in both Klingon and English (which is apparently the universal language of the Federation) and he's simply using a Klingon phrase. It's similar to the way a bilingual person will occasionally insert words or phrases from their native tongue into a sentence in an adopted one.

You don't even have to be bilingual to do that; how often do we wish folks "Feliz Navidad" in the middle of an English sentence in December?

 

[rkolter]

I know exactly what episode you're talking about (it's the one where they get stuck in the repeating-time loop colliding with Kelsey Grammer's ship). I think the simplest explanation is simply that Worf is fluent in both Klingon and English (which is apparently the universal language of the Federation) and he's simply using a Klingon phrase. It's similar to the way a bilingual person will occasionally insert words or phrases from their native tongue into a sentence in an adopted one.

Q: What do you call a universal translator that doesn't translate all the Klingonese it hears into something you can understand?
A: Broken.

If I am wearing a device which translates my words for everyone while suppressing the sounds from my mouth (and it does - the away teams regularly encounter life that does not have universal translators, yet understands them), and translates all the spoken words I can hear into a language I can understand (which it does, because the away teams in turn can understand those aliens), then the moment I hear anything non-English at all, I will immediately replace my universal translator.

If a Klingon used Klingon words for effect, and they were not translated, I would freak out. How would my personal universal translator know that the Klingon didn't want those words translated? What else would it decide I don't need translated because the word was being used for effect? Imagine:

(Two bomb technicians, working on an explosive device)
"That's it... that's it... ok, now cut the [unintelligible sound] wire."
"The... what?"
"The [unintelligible sound] wire. Cut it. We have ten seconds."
"I didn't quite catch that."
"[unintelligible sound]. [UNINTELLIGIBLE SOUND]!" *gesturing wildly at the bomb*
"Uh..." *looking panicked* "Did you say Red?"
"NO! I SAID [UN - IN - TELL - I - GE - BELL S-OOOOOOO-UUUUUUU-NNNNN-DDDDDDDD] YOU IDIOT! CUT IT OR WE ALL DI-"
*boom*

 

[XZ923]

Q: What do you call a universal translator that doesn't translate all the Klingonese it hears into something you can understand?
A: Broken.

If I am wearing a device which translates my words for everyone while suppressing the sounds from my mouth (and it does - the away teams regularly encounter life that does not have universal translators, yet understands them), and translates all the spoken words I can hear into a language I can understand (which it does, because the away teams in turn can understand those aliens), then the moment I hear anything non-English at all, I will immediately replace my universal translator.

If a Klingon used Klingon words for effect, and they were not translated, I would freak out. How would my personal universal translator know that the Klingon didn't want those words translated? What else would it decide I don't need translated because the word was being used for effect? Imagine:

(Two bomb technicians, working on an explosive device)
"That's it... that's it... ok, now cut the [unintelligible sound] wire."
"The... what?"
"The [unintelligible sound] wire. Cut it. We have ten seconds."
"I didn't quite catch that."
"[unintelligible sound]. [UNINTELLIGIBLE SOUND]!" *gesturing wildly at the bomb*
"Uh..." *looking panicked* "Did you say Red?"
"NO! I SAID [UN - IN - TELL - I - GE - BELL S-OOOOOOO-UUUUUUU-NNNNN-DDDDDDDD] YOU IDIOT! CUT IT OR WE ALL DI-"
*boom*

Your premise is based on the assumption that they always wear Universal Translators, and the only justification being that they usually understand aliens (they don't all the time, there are many instances of aliens speaking in native tongues and the humans not understanding them). There is one scene that immediately comes to mind that disproves this premise. It's in one of my favorite episodes of all, the TNG episode "A Matter of Honor". Cmdr. Riker serves as first officer of a Klingon Bird-of-Prey as part of an exchange program. When he reports to the bridge and takes an oath of loyalty to the captain, the Klingon first officer who is yielding his station says to the captain that he doesn't believe Riker, and the captain retorts "Speak in their language!". This exchange is in Klingon and subtitled for the viewer, and Riker clearly can't understand what's being said because he demands an explanation from the first officer. This suggests that the English language is simply ubiquitous in the galaxy at that point if every Klingon on the ship is presumed to know it.

Going back to the exchange regarding Worf at the poker game, I should point out that "deja vu" is a French phrase that English language speakers use all the time. If we stipulate that Klingon is as "legitimate" a language as French in Star Trek (which I don't think you can argue since TNG clearly establishes that the French language is no longer in widespread use) what's the difference between a human saying "I'm experiencing deja vu" and a Klingon saying "I'm experiencing Nee'Pagh" (or however it's spelled)

 

[Ettina]

The Ferengi translator couldn't handle dog in the one with Jonathan Archer.

 

[XZ923]

The Ferengi translator couldn't handle dog in the one with Jonathan Archer.

Dogs don't have an actual language. Their vocalization is simply a natural expression of an internal feeling. Trying to translate a dog's bark is roughly analogous to translating a human laugh.

 

[Khashishi]

We're pretty close to the point today where computers can do automatic translation on the fly. Of course, computers can't replace the sound (and movements!) coming from the mouths of people or change what we perceive in our brains, but it's obvious that the universal translator is just an excuse for practical storytelling purposes.

 

[KenJackson]

... that Worf is fluent in both Klingon and English (which is apparently the universal language of the Federation) and he's simply using a Klingon phrase. It's similar to the way a bilingual person will occasionally insert words or phrases from their native tongue into a sentence in an adopted one.

That raises another issue with the UT, since we're questioning how it works. It's quite common for English speakers to use foreign phrases for effect. But the sentence would loose something if the UT translated the phrase. So how does it know to NOT translate "a priori", "voilà", "quid pro quo", "je ne sais quoi" or "c'est la vie"?

Similarly, I sometimes watch foreign films with English subtitles and I'm amused to hear vulgarity in English. Apparently that's common practice. Since they're swearing in English it's not clear what the UT should do with it.

 

[XZ923]

That raises another issue with the UT, since we're questioning how it works. It's quite common for English speakers to use foreign phrases for effect. But the sentence would loose something if the UT translated the phrase. So how does it know to NOT translate "a priori", "voilà", "quid pro quo", "je ne sais quoi" or "c'est la vie"?

Similarly, I sometimes watch foreign films with English subtitles and I'm amused to hear vulgarity in English. Apparently that's common practice. Since they're swearing in English it's not clear what the UT should do with it.

Perhaps the UT is programmed to ignore certain phrases? Or maybe it's simply programmed to not translate mixed-language sentences. Or the programming heuristics are "smart" enough to know when to allow a phrase like this to go by un-translated. We are talking about 24th century technology, after all. Compare computer programming technology today to computer programming in 1917, then multiply by 3.