Ghost in the Shell (1995 & 2017)

[new6ton]

I watched Ghost in the Shell 1995 the other night. It was cartoon. At first I was hesitant being just cartoon. But found it so intriguing, then I rewatched again the 2017 live version staring Johansson Scarlett.

I noticed the 1995 cartoon version was more well-received (Tomato score 96%) than the 2017 version (43% only).

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/ghost_in_the_shell/
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/ghost_in_the_shell_2017/
It's an example where reboot is poorer. What is your theory why so? But this one is extreme in that the original was cartoon!

I think the reason why the cartoon is better is because the 1995 version mentioned the possibility of real ghost inside the brain while the 2017 version categorically concluded the ghost was just the brain (and vice versa) and nothing more? What is your take why the 1995 version is better?

The movies are intriguing because it described cybernetically expanding our brain into networks and gaining information. This is something that is possible in the future.

However, there is still the possibility that aside from cybernetic networks, there is still the ghost network present. This is because if you visit a person possessed by a spirit/ghost, you can let the spirit/ghost tap into the spirit global information network and acquire information of people, etc. (this is very common in Hong Kong or China, in fact it is very routine elsewhere).

Back to the 2017 movie version. There is something I don't understand in the end. This is a spoiler. Do not continue beyond this point if you haven't watched it yet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell_(2017_film)
"Cutter deploys a "spider-tank" to kill them. Kuze nearly dies before Killian is able to tear off the tank's motor, losing an arm in the process. Mortally wounded, Kuze offers to merge his "ghost" with Killian's, but Killian refuses."

How can Kuze offer to merge his "ghost" with Killian? It means sharing the brain network? When Kuze said it. Was his brain already distributed in the network such that even if he died. He still survived?

I don't understand the identical ending in the cartoon version. Please explain those folks who comprehended both endings (or either).

 

[GTOM]

I think in the film, Kuze only thought about that the Major will remember him.

I liked both, but the cartoon had deeper philosophy, so the film was rather female Robocop.

 

[Rive]

It's an example where reboot is poorer. What is your theory why so? But this one is extreme in that the original was cartoon!

'Cartoon' as you call it (in this context: anime) has natural limitations what is hard to patch up. Due the relatively low detailed visual content eyecandies won't work, so the producers can either rush for cheap productivity or for context what is not dependent purely on visual impact. The original GITS aims for the letter.

For movies, it is always a trap to bury every slip-up of the script under a ton of eyecandy and sensory overload. As far as I could watch it, the new GITS movie clearly fallen for this trap.

 

[new6ton]

I have in my watching list Ghost in the Shell: 2007 also cartoon. The graphics was not good but movie may be ok.

About brains, silicon brains and consciousness in Ghost in the Shell.

Do you believe there is a separate mental world from the physical brain?

This was briefly mentioned in the original Ghost in the Shell cartoon.

 

[new6ton]

What does "Auxiliary-Brain mean" in the original cartoon "Ghost in the Shell 1995"?

Source/Reference: Ghost in the Shell 1995 movie. Got this conversation inside from the *.srt file

"336
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,410
...he'd just run down a naked lady wandering
around on the highway.

Which brings us to here.

I've heard Megatech Body's tied pretty closely
to the government...

...and that all the shells
made there are secret.

If a hacker did this,
he had to swim through...

...some of the heaviest protection around.

And that isn't the only problem.

Of course, it doesn't have
an organic brain in its head...

...but we've detected
what looks like a ghost...

...in the auxiliary computer brain.

It isn't unlike
the virtual ghost-line you get...

...when a real ghost is dubbed off.

But it shows none of the data degradation
dubbing would produce.

Well, until we map the barrier perimeter
and dive in there...

...we won't know anything for sure.

(snipped.. conversation contiues)

...and I'm a replicant
made with a cyborg body and computer brain.

Or maybe there never was
a real "me" to begin with.

You've got real brain matter
in that titanium skull of yours.

And you get treated like
a real person, don't you?

There's no person
who's ever seen their own brain.

I believe I exist based only
on what my environment tells me.

Don't you believe in your own ghost?

And what if a computer brain
could generate a ghost...

...and harbor a soul?"

------------------------
and what does "ghost-line" mean?

 

[new6ton]

What does "Auxiliary-Brain mean" in the original cartoon "Ghost in the Shell 1995"?

Source/Reference: Ghost in the Shell 1995 movie. Got this conversation inside from the *.srt file

"336
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,410
...he'd just run down a naked lady wandering
around on the highway.

Which brings us to here.

I've heard Megatech Body's tied pretty closely
to the government...

...and that all the shells
made there are secret.

If a hacker did this,
he had to swim through...

...some of the heaviest protection around.

And that isn't the only problem.

Of course, it doesn't have
an organic brain in its head...

...but we've detected
what looks like a ghost...

...in the auxiliary computer brain.

It isn't unlike
the virtual ghost-line you get...

...when a real ghost is dubbed off.

But it shows none of the data degradation
dubbing would produce.

Well, until we map the barrier perimeter
and dive in there...

...we won't know anything for sure.

(snipped.. conversation contiues)

...and I'm a replicant
made with a cyborg body and computer brain.

Or maybe there never was
a real "me" to begin with.

You've got real brain matter
in that titanium skull of yours.

And you get treated like
a real person, don't you?

There's no person
who's ever seen their own brain.

I believe I exist based only
on what my environment tells me.

Don't you believe in your own ghost?

And what if a computer brain
could generate a ghost...

...and harbor a soul?"

------------------------
and what does "ghost-line" mean?

This is related to the so called Hard Problem of Consciousness which is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness

"The hard problem of consciousness is the problem of explaining how and why sentient organisms have qualia or phenomenal experiences—how and why it is that some internal states are felt states, such as heat or pain, rather than unfelt states, as in a thermostat or a toaster. The philosopher David Chalmers, who introduced the term "hard problem" of consciousness, contrasts this with the "easy problems" of explaining the ability to discriminate, integrate information, report mental states, focus attention, and so forth. Easy problems are (relatively) easy because all that is required for their solution is to specify a mechanism that can perform the function. That is, regardless of how complex or poorly understood the phenomena of the easy problems may be, they can eventually be understood by relying entirely on standard scientific methodologies. Chalmers claims that the problem of experience is distinct from this set and will "persist even when the performance of all the relevant functions is explained".

In Ghost in the Machine, some neurons were replaced or extended to silicon. Is there an interpretation in brain or awareness research about how although the circuitry of our brains exist to give us thoughts but somehow it's tapped to another world of pure meaning. So the qualia is in another world? What exactly is this idea called? Descartes Duality or maybe even Bohm implicate order? Does the latter claim this is the explanation for qualia in the brain? So Ghost in the Shell may be that implicate order or Descartes duality (I want to know the exact term for this concept)?

 

[new6ton]

I wonder how long before they can interface our brain to computer. I want to add math-co-processor to my brain so I can compute like Neumaier. Do you think they can do it in our lifetime? How does our brain analyze math problems?

 

[berkeman]

I wonder how long before they can interface our brain to computer. I want to add math-co-processor to my brain so I can compute like Neumaier. Do you think they can do it in our lifetime? How does our brain analyze math problems?

https://www.delltechnologies.com/en...8&lid=51702&acd=1230925044851702108c102577105

 

[new6ton]

Seriously. How long before we can build an AI with the intelligence of 2 year old child. We can start from there so it's easier. No speech center. No math center. No abstract thought. No sexual drive or ambition. Just a AI who can behave like 2 years old child.

Is it not possible to build neural brain networks using ICs or electronic components? How big in the component part would it take to simulate a neuron or group of neurons?

 

[new6ton]

When I tried to find out if they have somehow made tv series of Ghost in the Shell. Instead I found more than a dozen reality ghost shows such as:

1. Ghost Nation
2. Kindred Spirits
3. Paranormal Lockdown
4. Paranormal Witness
5. Ghost Hunters
6. Ghost Adventures
7. The Dead Files
8. Most Haunted
9. Paranormal Survivor
10. Haunted Collector

I got the list above from a site with this description "Paranormal TV shows have been getting ever more popular over the years. Many popular ghost hunters now have their very own television show or Youtube channel to document the paranormal cases they go on. Other shows consist of true stories based on the paranormal that are reenacted."

It's near Halloween. So countdown to scary night. And this topic is justified.

Seriously. Do you believe all of the shows above are scripted based on hoaxes or fabrication? So all of them are made up? What if 1% is real? Is this possible?

And allow me to ask this in this time of Halloween. Supposed 1% is real and ghosts of some kind exist. Can it support particular quantum interpretations?

Copenhagen Interpretation is our standard because Bohr didn't believe in Ghosts. And he thought there was nothing more to the quantum state as tool to compute. Would it change if Ghosts were real?

This is not personal speculations. I'm simply asking questions in the spirit of Halloween.

I have a friend who regularly see ghosts, that it becomes boring already. He can see nature spirits in the trees too. There are many like him but they are mostly ignored because even in our neo-ether theories. Physicists already concluded that it can't be detected and focusing just on special relativity. Do you have a friend who can see ghosts too? It's fine with me if they all have mental ailments of some kind. What part of their brain do you think is sick?

Hope they can make tv series out of Ghost in the Shell. No plans?

 

[Mark44]

Instead I found more than a dozen reality ghost shows

Sort of an oxymoron...

Supposed 1% is real and ghosts of some kind exist.

My opinion is that 0% is real, and there aren't any ghosts.

 

[new6ton]

Sort of an oxymoron...
My opinion is that 0% is real, and there aren't any ghosts.

If 1% were true, do you think it will revolutionize physics?

I'm not speculating but just asking a simple question.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I'm not speculating but just asking a simple question.

I'm not buying this. You've been pitching woo since you get here.

 

[Mark44]

From the Science Fiction and Fantasy Forum Rules"

This forum is ONLY for the discussion of existing science fiction and fantasy stories in movies, books, tv, comics. It is NOT for discussing personal ideas, those would go in the Science fiction WRITING forum if they adhere to the rules for that forum.

This forum is not for new ideas or projects, it is for discussion of existing fiction works ONLY. Any post not discussing existing works will be moved or deleted.

Thread closed.