How fast is Wolverine moving during his jump at the very end

[mrspock]

Or is there a way to calculate his speed? I know that since he's technically moving backwards, it's not the same speed as the train. The train's speed is about 300 mph.

 

[Danger]

He's not moving at all. He's suspended in a harness in front of a greenscreen.

 

[mrspock]

He's not moving at all. He's suspended in a harness in front of a greenscreen.

lol. i mean hypothetically, if this were real...i'm trying to do calculations for a project.

 

[Drakkith]

Take the length of his body, find out how many body lengths he's traveled over the train during the second or two in the air, and that should give you the distance he's traveled and the time, which you can use to get his speed compared to the train.

 

[Danger]

Oh... okay...
Well, sorry, but you can't do it. The entire situation couldn't happen in reality.
Even if it could, though, you'd need far more data than is supplied, such as his mass, the wind speed independent of the train's motion (ie: what someone on the ground would feel), what his aerodynamic properties are, etc..
Edit: Hi, Drakkith. I hadn't thought of that as a "calculation" when reading the question, but it would work.

 

[mrspock]

Oh... okay...
Well, sorry, but you can't do it. The entire situation couldn't happen in reality.
Even if it could, though, you'd need far more data than is supplied, such as his mass, the wind speed independent of the train's motion (ie: what someone on the ground would feel), what his aerodynamic properties are, etc..
Edit: Hi, Drakkith. I hadn't thought of that as a "calculation" when reading the question, but it would work.

yeah of course it can't lol, my assignment is proving why it wouldn't work :p
what equations would i use though? i thought drag force would be a factor but I'm not sure how to do the calculations

 

[mrspock]

Take the length of his body, find out how many body lengths he's traveled over the train during the second or two in the air, and that should give you the distance he's traveled and the time, which you can use to get his speed compared to the train.

oh that makes sense, thank you! :)

 

[Bandersnatch]

You could find out what is the distance between the overhead line masts you can see him passing (on google maps, perhaps?), and measure the time it takes him to move between them. Then just use V=d/t to find his average speed relative to the ground. This is similar to Drakkith's suggestion, but should be easier to measure than counting the body lengths he's travelled, and gives you directly the speed relative to the ground rather than to the train.Or, you could use some assumptions about his aerodynamic properties, the wind speed, the velocity gained from the jump, and solve the differential equation of motion with air drag to find out how fast he should be going.

 

[Danger]

I've been a Marvel fan ever since the first time that I stumbled across a Spidey comic in my late teens. Wolvie almost immediately became my favourite character because we're both Albertans, both pilots, don't have qualms about killing, and share a basic attitude. Just for the hell of it, though... officially he is 5'3" tall and weighs 300 lbs.. The producers of the movies took a few liberties in hiring Hugh Jackman. (Don't get me wrong; he owns that role the same way that Downy does Tony Stark, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I was sold from the cage match in the first film.)

 

[mrspock]

I've been a Marvel fan ever since the first time that I stumbled across a Spidey comic in my late teens. Wolvie almost immediately became my favourite character because we're both Albertans, both pilots, don't have qualms about killing, and share a basic attitude. Just for the hell of it, though... officially he is 5'3" tall and weighs 300 lbs.. The producers of the movies took a few liberties in hiring Hugh Jackman. (Don't get me wrong; he owns that role the same way that Downy does Tony Stark, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I was sold from the cage match in the first film.)

wait he's only 5'3"??

 

[Danger]

wait he's only 5'3"??

Yeah. As I said, they took liberties hiring Jackman. Are you also surprised to know that he's well over 100 years old?
Here, check it out for yourself:
http://marvel.com/universe/Wolverine_(James_Howlett)

 

[mrspock]

So what I'm trying to prove is that he shouldn't have been able to fly forward for that long in a perfect straight line parallel to the train.
I'm thinking of using Δx = 1/2 (v_i + v_f) Δt to calculate how far he really should've jumped and how he should have fell early on.
It's not shown in the video, but he goes on to claw the other guy in the face, I believe.
Would this method work, or do I need to use different kinds of equations that factor in drag force and such?

 

[mrspock]

You could find out what is the distance between the overhead line masts you can see him passing (on google maps, perhaps?), and measure the time it takes him to move between them. Then just use V=d/t to find his average speed relative to the ground. This is similar to Drakkith's suggestion, but should be easier to measure than counting the body lengths he's travelled, and gives you directly the speed relative to the ground rather than to the train.Or, you could use some assumptions about his aerodynamic properties, the wind speed, the velocity gained from the jump, and solve the differential equation of motion with air drag to find out how fast he should be going.

How would you find the drag force? And would you subtract that from the average velocity?

 

[Danger]

How would you find the drag force? And would you subtract that from the average velocity?

And again... that information is not available. You are on an impossible mission if you want to do it other than Drakkith's way.

 

[Bandersnatch]

@Danger come on, we can always use the spherical cow approach. I think we can go through it step-by-step, and get at least an approximation if we treat it as a Fermi problem.

O.k., first of all, you need to be comfortable with the projectile motion (SUVAT equations and all that)

To be able to solve this analytically, we'll have to make the first assumption of there being no drag in the vertical direction. It's not a bad assumption, as the speeds and distances involved are tiny compared to the horizontal motion.

We'll have two equations then, one for horizontal and one for vertical motion.
$ma_x=-F_D$
and
$ma_y=-mg$
(minus means towards the back of the train and down respectively)

The second one basically gives you the SUVAT equations. Look them up, if you don't know them by heart.
Use the one for velocity to find out how long Huge Jacked-man stays in air. After all, gravity is the only force dragging him down.
You'll have to assume some initial velocity - find out what are typical velocities attainable by humans from rest. Assume he's jumping either at 45° to the horizontal, or straight up.

Get back to us with the answer (and how you got there), or if you'll get stuck.

We'll deal with the drag equation later.

 

[Danger]

I haven't seen a spherical cow since my divorce.

 

[Drakkith]

wait he's only 5'3"??

That's his "official" height I guess. Not that it matters of course since no one draws him the same way and his height relative to other characters is always different.

 

[Danger]

That's his "official" height I guess. Not that it matters of course since no one draws him the same way and his height relative to other characters is always different.

Except that it's always been well established that Cyclops is very tall (I haven't looked it up, but I think that he's 6'6") and referred to Wolvie as "Runt". James Marsden who played Cyke is 5'9 1/2" tall, whereas Hugh Jackman is 6'2". They had to do a lot of creative camera work in the movies to make it appear that Cyke was taller.
By the bye, just as filming began, Hugh strolled into a convenience store in Toronto to buy a snack or a pack of smokes or whatever and it somehow came out that he was "Logan". The guy behind the counter immediately said (because all Canucks are Marvel fans), "You'd better play him Canadian, right? If you don't play him Canadian, there'll be trouble." Hugh of course is an Aussie with a noticeable accent. He immediately took on a vocal coach to make sure that he presented himself on film with an Albertan sound.

 

[sophiecentaur]

The terminal velocity of a skydiver in max-track position is about 120mph. The drag force will be about equal to the weight. At over twice that speed through the air, the force will be more than four times his weight (assuming a quadratic law). If he needs to match and exceed the speed of the train, the force would be even more and, once he's in the air, the drag work would soon slow him down.
No only is it nonsense, it's real nonsense. Even a Wizard would have a problem with that scenario.

 

[Bandersnatch]

If he needs to match and exceed the speed of the train

He doesn't, though. The whole idea is that slowing down w/r to the ground is speeding up w/r to the train (note the direction of travel). I don't see the issue here.

 

[sophiecentaur]

He doesn't, though. The whole idea is that slowing down w/r to the ground is speeding up w/r to the train (note the direction of travel). I don't see the issue here.

OK For him, it's a piece of cake. He's a super hero; no issue. So why are we discussing it on Physics Forums, in the first place? :w

 

[Bandersnatch]

I don't see why not. Analysing in-movie physics to find out what's wrong with it and what's correct is a good pedagogical tool for learning actual physics, in my opinion. If I were to teach somebody projectile motion I'd defninitely use the same approach.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Are you talking along those lines as an educationist? Demonstrating that a false argument is false is a risky business. You can end up with totally the wrong message getting across to young minds.
Would you also expect to prove that a magic ring couln't make you invisible or that you cannot fly on a broomstick?
Playing to the gallery can land you in a lot of intellectual trouble. Kids just cannot discriminate like adults.

 

[Bandersnatch]

My experience as an educator is more of the language teaching(EFLT) than the physics variety, so I might be biased towards bells and whistles in pedagogy. I never got the feeling that kids can't discriminate well enough, though. At least not at the age when they start learning kinematics in school.
Besides, isn't it our job to lead the learner in the right direction? To help recognise assumptions and limitations of the solution? It's not like you have to cut corners due to crowd control class dynamics issues.

 

[Danger]

crowd control class dynamics

 

[sophiecentaur]

The only way you can judge whether kids have 'got something' is to test them. That's when the quasi facts from Hollywood make their presence felt.
You have to be fair to the kids. Should they believe the message that's been put across by a multi million dollar production or what you've scribbled on the board?
They don't even believe there as a real Moon landing, decades before they were born.

 

[Bandersnatch]

I'm sorry, but I can't seem to understand your objection. The OP knows the scene is hogwash and wants to know why, in a proper, qualitative sense, that goes beyond saying "it's Hollywood, duh". You're saying he won't learn good physics from it, and I don't know why that is.
In fact, I barely see the difference between his question, and posting a question framed like so:
A train travels at a constant velocity of 300km/h in a staight line. A cylindrical object of cross-sectional area A and drag coefficient C is launched upwards at the front of the train with initial velocity V. Calculate how far will it travel with respect to the train before falling. List the assumptions you've made.

 

[A.T.]

Analysing in-movie physics to find out what's wrong with it and what's correct is a good pedagogical tool for learning actual physics, in my opinion.

Here is a blog that does a lot of this:
http://www.wired.com/category/science-blogs/dotphysics/

In fact, I barely see the difference between his question, and posting a question framed like...

In fact, most textbook problems are based on unrealistic assumptions.

 

[Bandersnatch]

Here is a blog that does a lot of this:
http://www.wired.com/category/science-blogs/dotphysics/

I like the "what if" series the xkcd guy does:
https://what-if.xkcd.com/archive/

 

[sophiecentaur]

Here is a blog that does a lot of this:
http://www.wired.com/category/science-blogs/dotphysics/

In fact, most textbook problems are based on unrealistic assumptions.

Tell me about it. At least when it's in a textbook the student can ask about it but I have read lunatic scenarios in exam (A Level!) questions which could severely disturb and confuse a bright student who happens to know a bit of stuff outside the syllabus.
Of course, I don't object to a bit of fun with whacky figures and where the participants are well enough informed. I do have a real problem with giving students the opportunity to believe Hollywood Science and that is precisely what can happen when a teacher strays into fantasy without being able to make it clear to all involved - not just the bright sparks - just what is and what isn't fantasy.
You need to talk to kids in a classroom to realize how 'alternative' their view of the Scientific world is. They really believe that Warp drive is a fact, for instance and that you can become a mutant by being exposed to radiation etc. etc. It really is risky to indulge that stuff in any but the most controlled conditions.

 

[A.T.]

BTW: We already have a thread on this scene by the same OP. They should be merged:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threa...-wolverine-break-physics.785814/#post-4934521