Perpetual motion and Newton's first law

[physicsYum]

This might be a very stupid question. But let me still ask. :)

Perpetual motion is not possible. But by Newton's first law, a body remains in its state of motion unless an external force acts on it.

Now, I wonder if the statement "perpetual motion is not possible" is true only in a practical context, or even theoretically? I remember reading one of the initial chapters on Feynman lectures, that to me, sounded like perpetual motion is not possible even in theory.

So assuming an ideal world of no friction, I roll a ball with some force. And then stop the force. It should keep moving at the same velocity, right? Isn't that perpetual motion?

I know I have some notion that is completely wrong. But can't figure out what. I appreciate any help in clarifying the same.

Thanks!

 

[berkeman]

Perpetual motion discussions are not permitted on the PF (it's a banned topic here). The PF Rules link has some useful links to sources that will help you understand why PMMs are not possible. Thread locked.

Perpetual motion and "free energy" discussions
http://wiki.4hv.org/index.php/Free_Energy_Debunking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion
http://www.skepdic.com/freeenergy.html
http://www.skepdic.com/perpetual.html

 

[Ryan_m_b]

To clarify moving forever and perpetual motion machines (AKA free energy) are two different things. If you had a hypothetically infinite vacuum tunnel and pushed a ball down it it would travel indefinately. The moment you try to get any energy out of it though you will slow it down and eventually stop it.

 

[HallsofIvy]

The "non-existance" of perpetual motion machines is not a consequence of Newton's laws but of the laws of thermodynamics.

The non-existance of "perpetual motion machines of the first kind", from which one can draw power, is a consequence of the first law of thermodynamics, the conservation of energy. The machine has only a finite amount of energy to begin with. If you are drawing energy out of it, eventually, it will have no more energy.

The non-existance of "perpetual motion machines of the second kind", from which one does NOT draw power, is a consequence of the second law of thermodynamics, the fact that there always exist friction or resistance so that even if we do not draw power, there is still a loss of energy resulting in the machiner eventually running out of energy.

You can consider the first to be a "theoretical" matter and the second "practical".

 

[sardar]

Hello,

You are correct that perpetual motion is not possible, both in a practical and theoretical context. This is due to the fact that it would violate the laws of thermodynamics, specifically the first and second laws.

The first law, also known as the law of inertia, states that an object will remain at rest or in motion at a constant velocity unless acted upon by an external force. However, this law also applies to the concept of perpetual motion. In order for an object to continue moving perpetually, it would require a continuous external force to counteract the forces of friction and air resistance. Without this external force, the object would eventually slow down and come to a stop.

In an ideal world with no friction, the ball would indeed continue moving at a constant velocity after the initial force is removed. However, this is not considered perpetual motion as there is no external force continuously acting on the object. Without this external force, the ball would eventually come to a stop due to the effects of gravity and air resistance.

Furthermore, the second law of thermodynamics states that in any energy conversion, some energy will always be lost in the form of heat. This means that even in an ideal world with no friction, the ball would eventually lose some of its kinetic energy and come to a stop.

In summary, perpetual motion is not possible in either a practical or theoretical context due to the laws of thermodynamics and the concept of inertia. I hope this helps clarify any misconceptions you may have had. If you have any additional questions, please feel free to ask. Thank you.