Sadi Carnot's Doubts: Exploring Universal Physics

[Bernadette]

Hello

In his book published in 1830, Sadi Carnot expresses doubts as to the universality of his reasoning on gases.
It's on page 89. Is it valid for liquids, solids? And he quotes in the text the freezing of water (increase in volume).
What experiments or reflections allowed Rudolf Clausius to generalize the second principle or principle of Carnot to all of physics?

Thank you for your answers.

Bernadette

 

[Nugatory]

Do you have a link to a decent (that is, better than Google Translate) English translation?

 

[Frabjous]

I think this is the page

from “The second law of thermodynamics; memoirs by Carnot, Clausius, and Thomson” translated by Magie (1899)

 

[Bernadette]

Hello

Thank you very much, Caz for this translation.

Sadi Carnot was a "loner" who valued his "private life". He published with his own funds and his book did not have the success it deserved during his lifetime. Sadi Carnot died in 1832, at the age of 36.

In 1834, Clapeyron, another French scientist, published a book in which he took up Carnot's reasoning on gas engines. Almost the same title as that of Carnot: Memoir on the motive power of heat.
Clapeyron does not, however, repeat the content of page 89, Carnot's doubts as to the universality of his
reasoning.
Clapeyron's book, however, allowed Carnot's ideas to spread.

Around 1850/60, Rudolf Clausius discovered Carnot's reasoning. And makes Carnot's reasoning, a principle, never challenged until today.

The discovery of ions by Aarhenius occurs around 1890What can we think of all this?

Have a nice day,

Bernadette

 

[Chestermiller]

Hello

Thank you very much, Caz for this translation.

Sadi Carnot was a "loner" who valued his "private life". He published with his own funds and his book did not have the success it deserved during his lifetime. Sadi Carnot died in 1832, at the age of 36.

In 1834, Clapeyron, another French scientist, published a book in which he took up Carnot's reasoning on gas engines. Almost the same title as that of Carnot: Memoir on the motive power of heat.
Clapeyron does not, however, repeat the content of page 89, Carnot's doubts as to the universality of his
reasoning.
Clapeyron's book, however, allowed Carnot's ideas to spread.

Around 1850/60, Rudolf Clausius discovered Carnot's reasoning. And makes Carnot's reasoning, a principle, never challenged until today.

The discovery of ions by Aarhenius occurs around 1890What can we think of all this?

Have a nice day,

Bernadette

Are you saying that current understanding of the 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect?

 

[Frabjous]

Trying understand how things were discovered can be difficult because the discoverers are building the framework that we presuppose today so their teminology is different from ours. They address concerns that a modern audience does not appreciate and and can get stuff wrong. Consequently, they are not read much today.

You probably are going to need to read a historical approach to thermodynamics. Two that I am aware of are

The Tragicomical History of Thermodynamics, 1822–1854 by Truesdell​

Block by Block: The Historical and Theoretical Foundations of Thermodynamics by Hanlon​

​

This was in the introduction of translation

 

[Frabjous]

Hanlon has a website which has some short videos that you might find of interest.
https://robertthanlon.com/

 

[Bernadette]

Are you saying that current understanding of the 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect?

Hello Chestermiller.

As I don't have a very advanced background in mathematics, I rather read old physics books where things are explained with words and sentences. I own a few and today you can find them scanned on the net (Gallica.fr for example).
I am also (and above all) interested in the people who have shaped physics. Today, too, there is information on the subject on the net. Sadi Carnot is a "special" character. Solitaire is the word that suits him best. (A bit like Fresnel).

I say nothing about the second principle. The notion of entropy escapes me. I do not understand the concept.

Just a question in a French forum that has no answer so far and that I reposted here yesterday

Thanks

Bernadette

 

[Bernadette]

Are you saying that current understanding of the 2nd law of thermodynamics is incorrect?

Hanlon has a website which has some short videos that you might find of interest.
https://robertthanlon.com/

Hello Caz

Thank you for your interventions. The book you mentioned (Truesdell) caught my attention and I'm going to get it. Have a nice day.

Bernadette

 

[Bernadette]

Hello

I would like to give back to Caesar what is Caesar's...

I went through Clifford Truesdell's book. I copy an extract from it (on page 218).

... Carnot was the first to assert the law, that the ratio of the maximum mechanical effect, to the whole heat expended in an expansive machine, is a function solely of the two temperatures at which the heat is respectively received and emetted, and is independant of the nature of the working substance....

In his book published in 1824 (only 600 copies), this is not at all what Carnot writes. He considers that his reasoning is valid for all gases. And it issues reservations for solids and liquids.

His footnote on page 89 of his book is clear on this. (Original book in French)

Of which I copy the translation provided above by Caz:

... The data lackies (missing) are the expansion force acquired by solids and liquids for a given increase of temperature, and the quantity of heat absorbed or emitted during change in volume of these bodies...

In his book, Carnot also mentions the freezing of water, on which the data of his time do not allow him to conclude.

Nice day

Bernadette

 

[Frabjous]

I believe that the Truesdell is quoting Rankine (1851) on page 219.

I read the word lackies as lacking. I apologize for the quality of the copy.

 

[Bernadette]

Hello Caz

Do not apologise. Thank you for your input.

I am still with an unanswered question. Asked yesterday."

What can we say about the change in Entropy for two connected glasses of salt water under voltage bias?​

It is time to sleep in my country.....

Bernadette

 

[Bernadette]

Hello.

The original question was:
What experiments or reflections allowed Rudolf Clausius to generalize the second principle or principle of Carnot to all of physics?

And the answer is:
Rudolf Clausius needs no reflection or experience.I re-read Carnot's book (and an article by Benjamin Bradu, CERN CH...) (*). If Carnot clearly expresses doubts on page 89 for solids, liquids and the freezing of water, it is not the same throughout his book.

Page 22: The maximum motive power resulting from the use of steam is also the maximum motive power achievable by any means whatsoever.
Page 38: The motive power of heat is independent of the agents used to produce it; its quantity is fixed solely by the temperatures of the bodies between which, as a last result, the transport of caloric takes place.

It is this ambiguity in Carnot's book that allowed Clausius to make Carnot's reasoning a principle. Clausius do not take care about page 89.

The question that remains today is whether scientists "followed" Clausius in his ideas or still took into account the remarks expressed by Carnot.

From about 1865 until today...

Have a nice day

Bernadette

 

[Bernadette]

(*): Founding texts of science analyzed by today's scientists. (bibnum). https://journals.openedition.org/bibnum/858 . In French, sorry... Bernadette