What are the Pros and Cons of Weed Out Courses?

[qspeechc]

"Weed Out" Courses.

Hi everyone.

I wanted to know what PFers thought about "weed out" courses. A weed out course is where the course is made very difficult, intentionally, so that many students drop out. I've had one such course so far, a sophmore physics course. We covered about 500 pages of material, and still had to do lab work every week, homework assignments, and some programming. At the beginning of the course the prof even told us that they were making the course hard to get rid of many students (they acheived their goal), and leave behind the good students in the physics department.

I survived the course with an average mark. A few students aced the course, and obvously those guys are just brilliant, and will excel in physics. I'm not sure if I appreciate that course. Anyway, I didn't appreciate it at the time because it made me quit physics, and now I regret that, and it's a bit too late for me to do any physics now.

I understand the point of such courses -- to weed out the bad students, and have the good students cut their teeth, er, so to speak -- but is it justified, is it a good idea? Thoughts?

 

[Vanadium 50]

What's the alternative?

 

[anubis01]

What's the alternative?

none unfortunately.

its harsh but necessary.

 

[qspeechc]

Necessary? Only the physics department has a weed-out course at my university. The mathematics department does not. Why is it necessary for the physics department and not for the mathematics department?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

it's a bit too late for me to do any physics now.

I didn't start studying physics until I was 35 years old.

 

[Moonbear]

Students probably consider the course I teach a weed out course. If the admission standards were higher, it wouldn't be. I want all my students to be able to pass the course, but unfortunately, there are always quite a few who are just not up to it. There are some, though, who have finally caught their wind and have figured out how to study appropriately, just too late to pass. I have every confidence they'll succeed when they retake the course

In reality, the term "weed out course" is applied by the students, not the departments or faculty. They aren't intentionally hard or trying to fail out that many students, they're simply teaching the level of material you need to learn to progress in that subject. If that course was made easier, it would just mean more students would get to higher level courses before failing out, but they'd still end up failing out if they can't handle that material.

If someone isn't competent enough in a subject to progress further, isn't it better to catch them early so they can either retake the course to get it right before moving on, or have them switch majors to something more suitable to their abilities/interests rather than letting them crash and burn later with more time wasted?

Some majors just tend to attract more unprepared students than others. Also, some courses are required by other majors, but only very peripherally related to the interests of the students in those other majors. This is more a matter of students being dumped into courses that really don't fit their needs. For example, for a long time, our university here just had one physiology course for all the undergrads who needed a physiology course. The problem was they were taking it in different years based on their various major requirements, and with substantially different backgrounds and needs. The failure rate was pretty high, because in order to provide sufficient content for the more advanced students who needed the material in more depth, it was going way over the heads of the students who were sophomores without much background in any typical prerequisite for such a course, but whose majors required them to take it that early. More recently, some new courses have been created to split up students at different levels to make it more challenging for the advanced students and more basic for the ones who don't need and can't handle the higher level material. I've pretty much gotten the go-ahead to create the final course that will sort out the last group of students into an introductory anatomy and physiology course given to freshmen to help prepare them for a more advanced course in either or both subjects. But, I'm sure I will still have plenty of students failing because giving the course that early on means that other than requiring a couple of pre- and co-requisites, I have no way to filter students prior to them entering the course, so the course size is anticipated to double or triple from the size of the current lecture I teach.

 

[f95toli]

I think it is rare for departments/professors to "design" a course to be a "weed out" course. Quite often it is just the result of bad planning where two or more more demanding courses take place at the same time and the professors do not talk to each others.
The "worst" courses I even encountered as an undergraduate was at the second half of my third year where we had three very demanding courses at once, all included very time consuming hand-in assignment, report writing etc. I managed to get through it (but not everyone did, I know people who left which is quite sad considering they were less than two years from graduation) but my recollection of the period is a by hazy, I remember being constantly exhausted. I also remember my first Sunday off in three months...I don't think I committed anything to long-term memoryduring that period
We were told that it had been even worse the year before, I honestly don't know how the ones who got through that managed. The program was suppose to be hard, but of the students that were suppose to graduate in 1999 only something like 30% actually, my year (2000) was somewhat better, something like 50-60% of the students who started in 1995 did eventually graduate.

 

[rootX]

I love them. I perform better in them on average than the "bird courses".

 

[Moonbear]

I think it is rare for departments/professors to "design" a course to be a "weed out" course. Quite often it is just the result of bad planning where two or more more demanding courses take place at the same time and the professors do not talk to each others.

Keep in mind that the people who prepare the curriculum for a major are often not the same people who are running the courses, so this can happen even when professors talk to each other. Of course, as you get further in your program, you will have more demanding courses at the same time. That's just the natural progression of a major. And, that's precisely why those teaching lower level courses shouldn't lower their standards to avoid perception of being a weed-out course, so that students don't get lulled into a false sense of security and then run into trouble in junior or senior year when there's a lot more at stake if they need to start over with another major.

 

[DanP]

For example, for a long time, our university here just had one physiology course for all the undergrads who needed a physiology course.

Out of curiosity, what text do you use for your phys course ?

 

[Moonbear]

Out of curiosity, what text do you use for your phys course ?

I don't teach the physiology courses, so don't know which text they are currently using. They use different ones for different courses.

 

[lisab]

All of my physics classes felt like "weed-outs" !

And I don't think it was just me (although I can't rule that out). The undergraduate advisor said the dropout (or switch-majors) rate was 50% a year, in our department.

 

[Pythagorean]

I always considered the 8AM classes the "weed-out" classes just because they were at 8AM.

 

[rootX]

I always considered the 8AM classes the "weed-out" classes just because they were at 8AM.

I have 8AM+extremely boring professor next semester .

 

[lisab]

I have 8AM+extremely boring professor next semester .

Coffee. Lots and lots of coffee.

 

[Moonbear]

I always considered the 8AM classes the "weed-out" classes just because they were at 8AM.

Ha ha! They weed out the faculty too. I'm still trying to figure out how I can manage to teach only afternoon classes. Though, the worst was the freshman bio lab at 8 AM on Friday that I was a TA for. That was definitely a weed out class...it takes a special kind of student who can do dissections while still hungover from the Thursday night parties.

 

[CRGreathouse]

In reality, the term "weed out course" is applied by the students, not the departments or faculty.

You think so? I mean, I agree the term itself is used only by students, but you don't think the classes were designed like that?

At the university I got my undergrad, the weed-out classes were well-known. They were all fairly basic classes -- none above 200 level. The distinction between those classes and other classes was so stark that I and others simply assumed they served their natural function: to tell people not suited for a major to find a new one (hence their 100 to 200 level). That there was only one per department* added credibility in my mind.

While a student I thought that the weed-out classes should be marked as such in the planner.

* Admittedly, there were two classes considered as weed-outs in Econ. But that was one from each track (Macro/Micro) and no one took both.

 

[Moonbear]

You think so? I mean, I agree the term itself is used only by students, but you don't think the classes were designed like that?

Only if they grade on a bell curve, which means that no matter how well the class does as a whole, some students are going to get Ds and Fs.

If grades are on a set scale, then it's just that those lower level classes just attract a lot of people who really aren't good at that particular subject or don't really care about it, or whatever reasons they don't do well. For example, I have very clear expectations of how much students in my course need to know to succeed in their later courses, and that is the cut off for passing. If they all worked hard, followed my advice to attend office hours starting early in the semester, form study groups, and keep up with their work rather than waiting until the last minute to study, they probably could get all As and Bs and I'd be glad to reward their efforts with those grades. The reality is that they don't all do what they are recommended to do and don't learn the material well enough, and a lot of them either drop out or don't pass. They probably do call it a weed out course.

 

[Sorry!]

Only if they grade on a bell curve, which means that no matter how well the class does as a whole, some students are going to get Ds and Fs.

If grades are on a set scale, then it's just that those lower level classes just attract a lot of people who really aren't good at that particular subject or don't really care about it, or whatever reasons they don't do well. For example, I have very clear expectations of how much students in my course need to know to succeed in their later courses, and that is the cut off for passing. If they all worked hard, followed my advice to attend office hours starting early in the semester, form study groups, and keep up with their work rather than waiting until the last minute to study, they probably could get all As and Bs and I'd be glad to reward their efforts with those grades. The reality is that they don't all do what they are recommended to do and don't learn the material well enough, and a lot of them either drop out or don't pass. They probably do call it a weed out course.

Not all profs/TAs care about teaching and the students as much as you do moonbear.

A teacher I once had who was a prof. for quite a while prior to teaching high school (personal story why he stopped teaching at the university) and he always explained the first year weed-out courses... and he showed us how to survive them. He was probably my favorite teacher throughout my entire time in high school.

 

[Kaimyn]

Not all profs/TAs care about teaching and the students as much as you do moonbear.

A teacher I once had who was a prof. for quite a while prior to teaching high school (personal story why he stopped teaching at the university) and he always explained the first year weed-out courses... and he showed us how to survive them. He was probably my favorite teacher throughout my entire time in high school.

So, how do you survive the so called "weed out" courses?

 

[NeoDevin]

So, how do you survive the so called "weed out" courses?

Same way you survive any other course: do the homework and study.

 

[Monique]

What would be more fair to the students: a numerus fixus for getting into physics, or taking out the people who are not talented/motivated enough along the way. I think you should be glad when courses are challenging. I've taken courses that did not require me to put in any effort to ace them, what are you going to learn from that?

 

[qspeechc]

The last time I had an 8am course was in my freshman year, thank goodness! Obviously a tactic to weed out new students!

But seriously, does this sound normal for a sophmore level physics course:
500-600 pages of material in a one semester course.
Labs every week, takes about 2-3hours, and you still need to type up a report which is at least 10 pages, excluding diagrams. Every week.
Writing computer programs most weeks.
Problem sets every week.?
I'm in my junior year and I've never had a work load anywhere near that large in any other course. We were even told at the beggining of the course by the professor that the course was designed so that many students will drop out. This isn't sour grapes by me, I did fine, not great, in that course.

Let's look at the stats for people in my year:
Enrolment in sophmore physics classes: about 60 per class
Enrolment in junior physics classes: about 10 per class
As far as I know, only two or three people are continuing with physics in their senior year. They were aiming for an exclusive physics department, and that's what they got.

 

[Moonbear]

Same way you survive any other course: do the homework and study.

What would be more fair to the students: a numerus fixus for getting into physics, or taking out the people who are not talented/motivated enough along the way. I think you should be glad when courses are challenging. I've taken courses that did not require me to put in any effort to ace them, what are you going to learn from that?

Really, that's usually the only thing that really weeds out students is their own motivation to study hard and learn in a course.

Even when I was a TA for general biology back in grad school, which was a course students definitely considered a weed out course, it was amazing how much the faculty and TAs really were doing to give the struggling students every opportunity to improve, but the students just didn't take advantage of any of it. For example, we didn't just have our one office hour a week for them to attend, the TAs all held office hours in the learning resource center, and we were all on a schedule to ensure that pretty much every hour of the day during the week had a TA in the learning center, and students were told they could go to ANY TA's office hours if they couldn't attend the one held by their own TA. Still, most of us would sit there and enjoy an hour to read journal articles while waiting around for no students, or maybe one or two. And the students who came in were usually the ones getting As and Bs, not the ones who really needed extra help. So, if the course was weeding anyone out, it was just those who were unmotivated to do everything it took to succeed.

I've borrowed a slide from some of the more senior faculty in my department that I include in my first day introduction to the course. I tell the students that I'm going to answer the question they are of course all asking on the first day of class, "How can I do well in anatomy without really trying?" I then pop up the answer on the slide, which is a crying baby and the text, "You can't!" I then give them a series of study tips, tell them exactly what my expectations are, reinforce that I want them to ask me questions if they are confused, tell them that if they don't have questions they really better come to office hours, because they SHOULD have questions, in addition to office hours, give them opportunities for asking questions in a forum set up for the class...one to ask me questions, and one to ask each other questions...nobody uses it, give them my office phone number and email address so they can ask questions that way if they can't get into my office hours, etc.

I then tell them bluntly that every year since I've been teaching, I have always had at least one student in my office the week before final exams, crying and wanting to know what they can do to bring up their grade because they are about to fail, and I let them know that if they wait until the last week of the course to come to me about a failing grade, there will be nothing I can do to help them other than hand them a tissue and welcome them to join me in my class again next year.

Of course, I also do some weird things in my grading that they don't think helps them, but in the long run does. Mainly, I have a very narrow range for grades of D. That's pretty much because grades of D and F are essentially the same in terms of progression in their major...they need to have a C or better to stay in their program. But, because of the oddities of the way universities operate, it's easier to retake and replace a grade of F than D, so if they are not going to be able to progress in their major until they retake the course, they are better off having an F and being able to replace it than to have a D. I don't know why universities do these weird things. I really start wondering why grades of D even exist anymore, since everyone still looks at it the same as an F.

The students I feel most sorry for are the ones who chose to withdraw because they have a low C and no realistic chance of getting a B in the course. For most students, they would just hang on and maintain the C and be happy, but I have students on scholarships who will lose their scholarship if their GPA drops under a 3.0, so it's better to withdraw than get a C. On the other hand, none of them have given up, they are just going to retake the course and do better next time.

On the other hand, I have a couple students who must be hoping for a miracle. They do not come to my office, they do not ask me questions, they do not seek any help, they did not withdraw before the deadline for withdrawals, and I don't know why since they have no hope to pass even if some miracle happened and they aced every assignment and exam remaining. Those are the students I wonder why they waste their or their parents' money on tuition.

 

[Moonbear]

The last time I had an 8am course was in my freshman year, thank goodness! Obviously a tactic to weed out new students!

But seriously, does this sound normal for a sophmore level physics course:
500-600 pages of material in a one semester course.
Labs every week, takes about 2-3hours, and you still need to type up a report which is at least 10 pages, excluding diagrams. Every week.
Writing computer programs most weeks.
Problem sets every week.?

Sounds about right to me. That would sum up about every course I've ever taken as an undergraduate. And, actually, all that added work is a good thing. It forces you to keep up with the material and continually think about it. The dangerous ones are when you have no specific homework assignments, just lectures and a textbook, and your entire grade in the course is a midterm and final exam. If you miss the mark of what you need to study and flub the midterm, you may have no hope of rescuing the grade with the final.

 

[George Jones]

But seriously, does this sound normal for a sophmore level physics course: 500-600 pages of material in a one semester course.

This depends on the actual text used (wordy with many examples or terse with few examples), the number of weeks of lectures in a semester, and the number of lecture-hours (1 lecture-hour = 50 min. lecture).

I once had a chair whose standard for physics courses beyond first-year was 250 pages for a 12 week semester with 3 lecture-hours per week.

 

[Vanadium 50]

500-600 pages of material in a one semester course.

1 semester = 15 weeks, so this is 33-40 pages per week, or 5-6 pages per day.

Do you think that's excessive?

 

[Pythagorean]

1 semester = 15 weeks, so this is 33-40 pages per week, or 5-6 pages per day.

Do you think that's excessive?

5-6 pages multiplied by four classes = 20-24 pages a day
+ homework + work + lectures + family + vehicle/home maintenance

yes. I don't have a social life outside of my family.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Most college undergraduate courses aren't designed for people who have a family and work, so I don't think that's a fair point

 

[rootX]

5-6 pages multiplied by four classes = 20-24 pages a day
+ homework + work + lectures + family + vehicle/home maintenance

yes. I don't have a social life outside of my family.

1)

20-24 pages a day
+ homework + work + lectures + family + vehicle/home maintenance

- family - vehicle/home maintenance
as already pointed out in the above post

2)
- work

If you are in engineering/physics, you cannot do work and classes at the same time in many cases (particularly when semester is demanding)

3)
Because you are going to the lectures and understanding the material, so you wouldn't go through each single page. Personally, I would skim and see what's relevant.

4)
Students are not tested on every single thing in the course. It is not hard to find which things they wouldn't be tested on.

 

[qspeechc]

Ok, let me give more details then.
The 600 pages comprises of:
Vibrations and Waves, by French, the entire book; and Griffiths EM book, the first nine chapters of the 3rd edition. I actually think that comes out closer to 700 pages. It is typical to cover only 7 or 8 chapters out of griffiths in a semester course, or so I've heard. So what we did was roughly twice a normal workload. On top of that labs evey week, 3hrs in the lab and 15 page reports is nothing to smile at. Problem sets, about 5 to 15 problems, average half an hour per problem that gives more than 3 hours a week on average. Plus programming, althought there wasn't too much.

I know this is not the only intensive course in the world, there is the Harvard math 55 courses:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Math_55
which is more intensive yet, but those types of courses are usually not required for a major. This course I did is required for a major.

 

[Vanadium 50]

5-6 pages multiplied by four classes = 20-24 pages a day

Yes, but that's a statement about how many classes of equivalent difficulty one can take, not a statement about how difficult one's most difficult class is.

 

[Moonbear]

5-6 pages multiplied by four classes = 20-24 pages a day
+ homework + work + lectures + family + vehicle/home maintenance

yes. I don't have a social life outside of my family.

Full-time students are expected to put in the equivalent of a full-time job toward time spend in classes and doing homework or studying, and that's assuming you're only taking 12 credits a term. If you start taking more credits, it's like picking up another part-time job (a lot of science majors carry 18 credits a semester). For each hour of lecture, you should expect to put in 2-3 hours of work at home for that course. If you have a lot of obligations outside of school, you may want to consider attending part-time instead of full-time.