A three month long summer vacation from public school seems stupid

[sevensages]

Do you agree with me?

 

[DaveC426913]

This question is not well formed enough for me to be able answer meaningfully. I will abstain until some clarity is brought to it.

 

[sevensages]

This question is not well formed enough for me to be able answer meaningfully. I will abstain until some clarity is brought to it.

I am asking if a three month long vacation for children from grades kindergarten to grade 12 is stupid.

 

[BillTre]

I liked a three month vacation when i was a kid.
What is your argument for it being stupid?

 

[PeroK]

Define "stupid". What are the benefits and/or disadvantages of changing it? Should the break be longer or shorter? If so, how long?

 

[sevensages]

I liked a three month vacation when i was a kid.
What is your argument for it being stupid?

Children would get better educations if school was year round for two reasons:

1# Teachers could cover more total curriculum in 12 months than in 9 months.

2# Children forget some of the curriculum that they learned in the previous school year over the three month long summer vacation. This mostly applies to subjects that are progressive, especially mathemathics.

 

[sevensages]

Define "stupid". What are the benefits and/or disadvantages of changing it? Should the break be longer or shorter? If so, how long?

It is stupid to have a three month long break in the summer because it causes children to attain lower quality educations than if school was year round. The summer vacation should only be one or two weeks. The benefit of changing the summer vacation to one or two weeks instead of three months would be that children would get higher quality educations.

 

[PeroK]

It is stupid to have a three month long break in the summer because it causes children to attain lower quality educations than if school was year round. The summer vacation should only be one or two weeks. The benefit of changing the summer vacation to one or two weeks instead of three months would be that children would get higher quality educations.

I guess that's debatable. When I was at school, the summer break was about six weeks.

 

[Janus]

It is stupid to have a three month long break in the summer because it causes children to attain lower quality educations than if school was year round. The summer vacation should only be one or two weeks. The benefit of changing the summer vacation to one or two weeks instead of three months would be that children would get higher quality educations.

In other words, kids shouldn't be allowed to be kids. And I question whether you'd get that much of an improvement. I think it would more likely lead to burnout, especially in younger children. It would also be interesting to see what happens when a majority of working people with children in school applies to take their vacation in the same two week period.

 

[weirdoguy]

I think it would more likely lead to burnout

This. It's 2025, I know some people don't want to belive this, but we are not robots. We need breaks. Children need breaks. And not short ones. Children need more rest, because they are growing up! Again, it's 2025 and we already know that hustle culture is not the way to go.

 

[jbriggs444]

I guess that's debatable. When I was at school, the summer break was about six weeks.

For us (1960's and 70's midwest US) it was a three month vacation from June through August. My parents were both teachers, so the entire family had three months each year not tied down by anything. We spent the first three weeks of each summer picking a direction, hopping into the car and camping our way across the country. The rest of each summer still stretched out before us, seemingly infinite from the perspective of my child's eyes.

In my view, six weeks would also have been acceptable. I would expect that extending the school year from 180 classroom days to 210 days would result in significantly improved educational outcomes.

I do not know how such an increase would feed into the ability to attract and pay for quality teachers.

However...

It is easy to discuss education like a spreadsheet. Classroom days per year. Classroom size. Teacher salary per student. Building amortization and maintenance. Test score averages.

But I had an eye opening experience. For essentially my entire school life I had been in normal classes with students who functioned at grade level. Then one year I (about 16 or 17 years old at the time) was placed in a high school English class. A number of students in that class could not read proficiently. The teacher would ask them to read a passage from a book and they would stumble painfully through the text. Not over hard words. Just over normal words.

It was clear that these students had been passed on from one grade to the next without ever mastering the material. I understand the teacher's position. Hold the child back and you'll get nothing but anger from the parents and from the school system. Far easier to palm them off on the next teacher in line. It is a systemic failure mode.

Extending the school year by an additional 30 days will not help such students. I am not sure what would. I am not an educator. I am just an ordinary civilian -- who has also turned my back on those individuals and has given them little thought as I proceeded on my own course through life.

 

[sevensages]

In other words, kids shouldn't be allowed to be kids. And I question whether you'd get that much of an improvement. I think it would more likely lead to burnout, especially in younger children.

No. Kids would be allowed to be kids if there were not a three month long summer vacation. I want to keep recess in elementary school. Children can still have playtime. I want to continue to have no school on Saturday and Sundays. But a three month long break in the summer is excessive.

When I was a child, I looked forward to the Summer vacation in late Spring, but after about two weeks of summer vacation, I looked forward to going back to school. I saw my friends at school, and school gave me something productive to do.

Of course there would be an improvement in children's educations if school were year round. It is just common sense that if you increase the amount of time people spend in school learning academics, the students will learn more academically. Public school is year round in Japan, and the students in public school in Japan are far ahead of American students academically.

It would also be interesting to see what happens when a majority of working people with children in school applies to take their vacation in the same two week period.

It would be no more interesting than to see what has always happened when a majority of working people with children in school applied to take their vacation at Christmas or for the same period at Spring break. It does not result in any major calamities.

 

[sevensages]

For us (1960's and 70's midwest US) it was a three month vacation from June through August. My parents were both teachers, so the entire family had three months each year not tied down by anything. We spent the first three weeks of each summer picking a direction, hopping into the car and camping our way across the country. The rest of each summer still stretched out before us, seemingly infinite from the perspective of my child's eyes.

In my view, six weeks would also have been acceptable. I would expect that extending the school year from 180 classroom days to 210 days would result in significantly improved educational outcomes.

I do not know how such an increase would feed into the ability to attract and pay for quality teachers.

However...

It is easy to discuss education like a spreadsheet. Classroom days per year. Classroom size. Teacher salary per student. Building amortization and maintenance. Test score averages.

But I had an eye opening experience. For essentially my entire school life I had been in normal classes with students who functioned at grade level. Then one year I (about 16 or 17 years old at the time) was placed in a high school English class. A number of students in that class could not read proficiently. The teacher would ask them to read a passage from a book and they would stumble painfully through the text. Not over hard words. Just over normal words.

It was clear that these students had been passed on from one grade to the next without ever mastering the material. I understand the teacher's position. Hold the child back and you'll get nothing but anger from the parents and from the school system. Far easier to palm them off on the next teacher in line. It is a systemic failure mode.

Extending the school year by an additional 30 days will not help such students. I am not sure what would. I am not an educator. I am just an ordinary civilian -- who has also turned my back on those individuals and has given them little thought as I proceeded on my own course through life.

What would help those students would be to put them in special education. We have had special education for students who cannot learn the curriculum in regular academic classes for decades in America. Those students learn more in special education. Your last three paragraphs are a red herring.

 

[sevensages]

I guess that's debatable. When I was at school, the summer break was about six weeks.

What country did you go to school in ? In America, the summer break is approximately three months (usually just a hair under three months like eleven weeks). Reducing the summer vacation from three months to six weeks would be a big improvement, but I think that even six weeks is excessive. I think one or two weeks would be okay.

 

[sevensages]

This. It's 2025, I know some people don't want to belive this, but we are not robots. We need breaks. Children need breaks. And not short ones. Children need more rest, because they are growing up! Again, it's 2025 and we already know that hustle culture is not the way to go.

I got burnout on summer vacation after about two weeks.

 

[DaveC426913]

I am asking if a three month long vacation for children from grades kindergarten to grade 12 is stupid.

Define "stupid".

Who might it be stupid to?

• The children?
• The teens, who need the time for summer jobs so they have money and independence and college tuition?
• The teachers? Who often work hundreds of hour of unpaid overtime during the school year?
• The parents? Who otherwise would not get a few weeks of quality vacation time?
• The communities and businesses that depend on the summer influx of tourists and vacationers that power whole towns?

 

[DaveC426913]

It is just common sense

Do you think your idea of common sense is the same as mine?

 

[sevensages]

Define "stupid".

Stupid: to unnecessarily close public schools for three months in the summer, which has significant opportunity costs for students' educations.

Who might it be stupid to?

• The children?
• The teens, who need the time for summer jobs so they have money and independence and college tuition?

A lot of teenagers age 18 and 19 who have already graduated from high school work to pay for college tuition, but very few teenagers working summer jobs in high school are saving up for college tuition. What high school students work for is to save up for a car and other miscellaneous expenses, mostly to have money to do stuff for fun such as going to the movies, etc.

The teenagers can work those jobs during the school year, or they could just wait until after they graduate from high school to start work. We should focus more on grades K-12 education.

• The teachers? Who often work hundreds of hour of unpaid overtime during the school year?
• The parents? Who otherwise would not get a few weeks of quality vacation time?
• The communities and businesses that depend on the summer influx of tourists and vacationers that power whole towns?

The three month long summer vacation is stupid for everyone.

 

[nasu]

Children would get better educations if school was year round for two reasons:

1# Teachers could cover more total curriculum in 12 months than in 9 months.

But you'll have to replace the teachers every few years. Thinking about summer vacation it's what keeps them going. I suppose you don't realize how nerve breaking is teaching middle and elementary school nowadays. Or maybe you are in a very nice environment and not a run of the mill public school in North America. And think about kids getting restless as the summer approaches. Tell them that they have to keep going.

 

[PeroK]

What country did you go to school in ? In America, the summer break is approximately three months (usually just a hair under three months like eleven weeks). Reducing the summer vacation from three months to six weeks would be a big improvement, but I think that even six weeks is excessive. I think one or two weeks would be okay.

Scotland. It's currently 7 weeks, which is probably what is was back then. I got free school and university education.

One or two weeks is absurd.

 

[DaveC426913]

One or two weeks is absurd.

I think the assumed alternative is one or two weeks three to four times per year.

Same amount of time off, just spread around.

 

[DaveC426913]

Man, I hate the word 'stupid'. It's meaningless and unimaginative.

Can we work a little on more descriptive terms? What's 'stupid' about it?

 

[PeroK]

@jbriggs444 many years ago, I was watching the US Open Tennis. Andy Roddick was playing Giles Muller from Luxembourg. The commentators wanted to find something interesting about that country and came back with the fact that Luxembourg had a 100% literacy rate. I've never heard anything like the silence that followed. You could sense their total failure to comprehend this. In the end they laughed it off, recovered their wits and fifteen minutes later the USA was once again the envy of the world in all respects. But, for a couple of minutes their faith was sorely tested.

 

[PeroK]

I think the assumed alternative is one or two weeks three to four times per year.

Same amount of time off, just spread around.

We have Christmas and Easter breaks as well. It's also worth noting that the teachers holidays are shorter as they have preparation to do before each term.

 

[Choppy]

There is research on this topic. See for example:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8356518/
"Students at single‐track YRE schools show modestly higher achievement in both math and reading—by a magnitude similar to estimates of summer learning loss—but comparable proficiency."

But consider the costs:

• Many teachers choose that profession BECAUSE it means they get the summers off to pursue other things. If forced to teach year round, you risk losing your workforce.
• The summer also provides teachers with opportunities to learn more, and bring that learning into their classrooms.
• Increased costs of maintaining schools year-round. Think about air-conditioning, janitorial services, etc. And you'll probably need to pay your teachers more if you're not giving them summers off.
• Less young people working seasonal jobs.
  Without specifically debating some of the points above, I think it's a fair statement that young people can earn more money working full time over the summer than they can with interspersed part-time work during the year. Whether they save this money education, or use it to buy cars or whatever, it's economically valuable either way. Plus there are seasonal industries that need workers.
• Summer Education
  Science camp, dance camp, computer camp, space camp, band camp, arts camp, sports camp, fishing with Grandpa, baking with Grandma, hobbies like building RC cars, lemonade stand, building jumps for your bicycle, etc... there are a lot of opportunities for learning outside of school.

In the end, this is one of those issues where there are benefits and costs either way. And even if one way proves more beneficial in the end, I don't think it's fair to label the opposing point of view "stupid."

 

[weirdoguy]

It is just common sense

In Poland school ends around 20th of june and stars 1 of september. Two months. Hard months for me, because as a private teacher I barely have any work.

 

[PeterDonis]

When I was a child, I looked forward to the Summer vacation in late Spring, but after about two weeks of summer vacation, I looked forward to going back to school. I saw my friends at school, and school gave me something productive to do.

My experience was different. I saw my friends plenty during summer vacation--in fact it was nicer for me because I could see them without having to also put up with all the bothersome people I was forced to interact with at school. And I had plenty of productive things to do all during vacation. I was never bored. In fact I was more bored at school than during vacation. (Typical vacation when I was in school was about 2-1/2 months, mid June through the end of August.)

 

[sevensages]

Man, I hate the word 'stupid'. It's meaningless and unimaginative.

Can we work a little on more descriptive terms? What's 'stupid' about it?

It is stupid because there is no need for students to be out of school during the summer. It is stupid because it wastes over two months that could be used productively to better people's educations.

 

[sevensages]

But you'll have to replace the teachers every few years. Thinking about summer vacation it's what keeps them going. I suppose you don't realize how nerve breaking is teaching middle and elementary school nowadays. Or maybe you are in a very nice environment and not a run of the mill public school in North America. And think about kids getting restless as the summer approaches. Tell them that they have to keep going.

There are a couple of things that we can do to incentivise people to want to be teachers:

1# Raise property taxes to increase teachers' pay substantially

2# Make the teacher's jobs easier by expelling disruptive students.----The first thing to do is restore paddling in public schools. Disruptive students should be paddled. If the disruptive students' parents do not consent to their disruptive sons or daughters to be paddled, then the disruptive student either gets expelled from school altogether or get expelled from the normal classes and has to attend school in a special holding area for disruptive students. In the unlikely event that paddling does not cause a student to stop being disruptive, then the disruptive student shall be expelled.

 

[sevensages]

My experience was different. I saw my friends plenty during summer vacation--in fact it was nicer for me because I could see them without having to also put up with all the bothersome people I was forced to interact with at school. And I had plenty of productive things to do all during vacation. I was never bored. In fact I was more bored at school than during vacation. (Typical vacation when I was in school was about 2-1/2 months, mid June through the end of August.)

Students would get a better education if public school was year round.