Caught Staring to Etiquette for Opposite Sex Interactions

[Proton Soup]

doesn't matter. it's not rude to look, only to linger. there were several nice buns on display at the gym last night, shrink-wrapped in tight stretchy fabric. not a long-tailed shirt of modesty in the bunch.

 

[DaveC426913]

I don't remember ever catching a woman staring at me.

I caught a woman checking me out from behind once (it sure doesn't happen often, so I don't often get a chance to blow that horn). We walked past each other on the sidewalk. She was cute enough for me to risk checking if the caboose matched the loco - and I caught her looking around too. She whipped back so fast I'm sure she knew she was caught. Just the thing to brighten a man's day...

 

[DaveC426913]

Paying attention to the direction that your head is facing is probably the biggest thing people could do to improve their slyness. I notice guys all the time (looking at me or at other girls) because of their failing to pay attention to this.

I am a terrible starer. And I become very aware that my movements, even in the target's peripheral vision, are unmistakable. Even my eyes are wide to gather every detail in.

Nothing like a woman walking past you and your head following her through 120 degrees like you were a radar dish.

 

[QuantumPion]

What I do when I get caught staring at a girl is point at something behind her. When she turns to see what I am pointing at, I make a break for it.

 

[Cryptonic]

I just stare openly. If they think I'm a pervy creep so what? Girls are good to look at it. Damn, they're continually eyeing each other up themselves, reading those stupid magazines all the time & judging each other's looks etc. I just stare and I don't care. I'm a pervy creep so what!?

 

[DaveC426913]

I just stare and I don't care. I'm a pervy creep so what!?

Well, at the very least, in a larger-picture perspective of your life, how does this behaviour contribute to you getting laid as frequently as possible?

 

[JoVieira]

I don't think there is any harm in appreciating what you see... At the end of the day its not always about wanting to talk to them I am happily married, but appreciating a beauty is something that's natural, we all have eyes don't we!

 

[DaveC426913]

I don't think there is any harm in appreciating what you see... At the end of the day its not always about wanting to talk to them I am happily married, but appreciating a beauty is something that's natural, we all have eyes don't we!

The harm comes in treating a human being as if ihe/she is a piece of scenery.

 

[JoVieira]

Meh women look just as much as men! I have 5 sisters and trust me they are at it too!

Its different to admire beauty than too look as if you are about to pounce on them!

 

[DaveC426913]

Im happily married, but ...

This is a telling comment. It could be construed that you are more concerned about the consequences upon yourself than upon the subject of your attentions.

Meh women look just as much as men! I have 5 sisters and trust me they are at it too!

Yes. No one suggested it was a male-female thing. It's a person-meat thing.

Its different to admire beauty than too look as if you are about to pounce on them!

That may seem like a big difference from behind your eyes. The issue is: how does the subject feel about it? The danger is that when viewing them as just a piece of walking scenery, you are not thinking about how that person might feel about your attentions.

I'm not trying to make a federal case out of it, but you did ask the question 'what's the harm?'

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

The harm comes in treating a human being as if ihe/she is a piece of scenery.

There are so many people walking/driving/biking/ect where I live that when it comes to looking at them they are really not much more than scenery from a practical stand point. Its not like I am going to talk to and get to know all of these people. I may never even see them again. They are just another face in the crowd. It may be nice to get to know them and realize them as unique individuals with feelings, thoughts, and ambitions but in 99.9% of cases that is never going to happen. Unless I ignore the fact that they even exist all there is to do is look and consider what I am seeing for some brief time before they are gone from my life possibly forever.

 

[DaveC426913]

There are so many people walking/driving/biking/ect where I live that when it comes to looking at them they are really not much more than scenery from a practical stand point. Its not like I am going to talk to and get to know all of these people. I may never even see them again. They are just another face in the crowd. It may be nice to get to know them and realize them as unique individuals with feelings, thoughts, and ambitions but in 99.9% of cases that is never going to happen. Unless I ignore the fact that they even exist all there is to do is look and consider what I am seeing for some brief time before they are gone from my life possibly forever.

True, but when one changes to ogling a particular individual, one is no longer letting them go to and fro anonymously.

 

[Huckleberry]

Im happily married, but

...This is a telling comment. It could be construed that you are more concerned about the consequences upon yourself than upon the subject of your attentions.

That could be construed without the addition of the comment. The comment simply acknowledges that it could be construed so, but... it doesn't have to be the case.

People are sexual beings. We all know we are checking each other out. Even someone devoted to another person will examine the form of someone else because of its sexual appeal. There doesn't have to be any sexual intention or even desire connected to the appreciation. Looking at someone without an appreciation for who they are as a person doesn't mean that they are nothing more than a piece of meat. We are meat. We're people too. We're an art gallery and a meat locker all in one. When I'm looking at a nude painting I sometimes wonder what motivated the artist, but usually I'm concerned only with how the art motivates me. I don't know the artist behind the painting, which makes it difficult to appreciate her for the beauty of her personality.

I say we all just run around naked. People will get bored with the porn stares and we can appreciate more of the art stares.

 

[Pinu7]

The harm comes in treating a human being as if ihe/she is a piece of scenery.

What else is he to do? There is nothing wrong with admiration for beauty, it doesn't dehumanize them.

You may be confusing admiration with lust.

 

[DaveC426913]

That could be construed without the addition of the comment. The comment simply acknowledges that it could be construed so, but... it doesn't have to be the case.

People are sexual beings. We all know we are checking each other out. Even someone devoted to another person will examine the form of someone else because of its sexual appeal. There doesn't have to be any sexual intention or even desire connected to the appreciation. Looking at someone without an appreciation for who they are as a person doesn't mean that they are nothing more than a piece of meat. We are meat. We're people too. We're an art gallery and a meat locker all in one. When I'm looking at a nude painting I sometimes wonder what motivated the artist, but usually I'm concerned only with how the art motivates me. I don't know the artist behind the painting, which makes it difficult to appreciate her for the beauty of her personality.

I say we all just run around naked. People will get bored with the porn stares and we can appreciate more of the art stares.

You're still missing the point.

You can have all the philosophy you want when you're observing someone, but since the question is: what is the harm, then you have to look at it from the target's point of view[/B].

You must realize that the target has no idea that
- you are a nice guy and you wil respect her space
- your attentions are no more intrusive than someone asking for directions to the subway
- you are not about to approach her, meaning she'll have to deal with a possible pickup (in-and-of-itself, probably one of the most stressful situations a person can spontaneously find themselves in)
- you are not actually lusting after her
- you are not a loon

Note in particular, these last two. You are freely admitting that you are admiring her physical attractiveness. She doesn't know if that's gentlemanly or if it's lascivious.

Really, what it comes down to is that your philosophy is one that is completely insnesitive of her possible discomfort and stress. So yes, you are reducing her from a human, with feelings to a piece of scenery that has no feelings.

 

[DaveC426913]

What else is he to do? There is nothing wrong with admiration for beauty, it doesn't dehumanize them.

You may be confusing admiration with lust.

It has nothing to do with your intent, noble or otherwise. Since your thoughts are private, your target has no idea what your intent is. Their best course of action is to err on the side of caution.

You would need to ask the target how they feel. It is their feelings and stress where the potential harm is done.

 

[Cryptonic]

Who cares what they think? People are scenery! Just stare and grab yourself an eyefull, is what I say. Who cares!? Girls insist on wearing short skirts and showing cleavage = I'm staring.

I don't get laid much because I'm fat and ugly and unconfident with women... so what have I got to lose? Girls are mostly stuck-up and snobby, so I'm going to blatantly stare and who cares what they may think?

It's funny to see girls in miniskirts constantly tugging their skirt down ha ha.

 

[Pinu7]

It has nothing to do with your intent, noble or otherwise. Since your thoughts are private, your target has no idea what your intent is. Their best course of action is to err on the side of caution.

That's why you should do it secretly or, if not, just compliment her.

 

[DaveC426913]

Who cares what they think? People are scenery! Just stare and grab yourself an eyefull, is what I say. Who cares!? Girls insist on wearing short skirts and showing cleavage = I'm staring.

I don't get laid much because I'm fat and ugly and unconfident with women... so what have I got to lose? Girls are mostly stuck-up and snobby, so I'm going to blatantly stare and who cares what they may think?

Because that philosophy doesn't work both ways.

The obvious counterpoint would be to discover something about you, Cryptonic, that you are uncomfortable with, then wait until you are in a public place and then draw attention to it.

If you are a moral person, you will, at least in principle, desire not to inflict upon someone something (or an equivalent) that you would not want inflicted upon yourself.

 

[lisab]

Who cares what they think? People are scenery! Just stare and grab yourself an eyefull, is what I say. Who cares!? Girls insist on wearing short skirts and showing cleavage = I'm staring.

I don't get laid much because I'm fat and ugly and unconfident with women... so what have I got to lose? Girls are mostly stuck-up and snobby, so I'm going to blatantly stare and who cares what they may think?

It's funny to see girls in miniskirts constantly tugging their skirt down ha ha.

I would bet that the reason you aren't as popular with women isn't so much because of your looks.

Rather, your attitude towards women ("Girls are mostly stuck-up and snobby, so I'm going to blatantly stare and who cares what they may think?") and the high creep factor ("Just stare and grab yourself an eyefull, is what I say. Who cares!?"), are likely the highest contributors to your situation.

 

[ViewsofMars]

Who cares what they think? People are scenery! Just stare and grab yourself an eyefull, is what I say. Who cares!? Girls insist on wearing short skirts and showing cleavage = I'm staring..
I don't get laid much because I'm fat and ugly and unconfident with women... so what have I got to lose? Girls are mostly stuck-up and snobby, so I'm going to blatantly stare and who cares what they may think?
It's funny to see girls in miniskirts constantly tugging their skirt down ha ha.

It appears to me you have an addiction to female legs and breasts that has resulted in a unhealthy attitude towards females.

 

[Huckleberry]

You must realize that the target has no idea that
- you are a nice guy and you wil respect her space
- your attentions are no more intrusive than someone asking for directions to the subway
- you are not about to approach her, meaning she'll have to deal with a possible pickup (in-and-of-itself, probably one of the most stressful situations a person can spontaneously find themselves in)
- you are not actually lusting after her
- you are not a loon

I don't care if she thinks I'm a nice guy or a loon. I probably won't respect her space, whatever that means. My intensions may be intrusive, and I may be lusting after her. There's a whole world of nonverbal (edit- cues) here, but you are generally right that I don't take her concerns into my viewing pleasure. All of that still doesn't mean that I think of her as anything less than human.

The other side to the argument is that I don't know if she is a nice girl or a loon. I don't know her intentions or what trips her trigger. If we had to know these things before we interacted with each other then people would never meet on their own. It's an interactive world. We look and listen and feel. My senses and my thoughts are my own and I'm not going to curtail them or apologize for them for someone I don't even know.

There's nothing wrong with approaching an attractive woman. By your argument it is only okay to approach if you are uninterested in her body or blind. One might as well solicit random women or hand out information pamphlets or hit on only those girls with no pictures in their online profile.

*sigh* If appearance is the only thing that a guy finds attractive then they are missing out on everything that makes a woman a human being worth getting to know. Maybe the answer is that he isn't a person worth getting to know unless a woman is satisfied with the shallowest of attentions. But at the same time it isn't possible to get to know every single human being you look at. The answer isn't to never look at other human beings.

You're talking like a married man. That works for you, and hopefully your wife appreciates it. Some people are on the hunt. They have the eyes of a hunter and their gaze carries with it sexual interest. Miniskirts don't really do it for me though. She's trying too hard. I did recently see a picture of Hilary Swank in a sheer dress that left nothing to the imagination. That blew my socks off. She's a nice girl.

 

[DaveC426913]

I don't care...

You had me at I don't care...

You need not explain further. If you don't care, then you don't care if you're doing harm. Which is fine. Note that this is not a discussion where behaviour is being judged as right or wrong. It is a discussion where we are determining if the behaviour does harm.

It is a critical distinction.

It is a perfectly valid response to admit that you are causing someone discomfort and that you don't care.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

It is a perfectly valid response to admit that you are causing someone discomfort and that you don't care.

There is also the issue of whether or not it is very sensible for a person to feel discomfited over certain behaviors. There are apparently people out there who are discomfited by women wearing short skirts. Would you be as probing about the decision to wear short skirts when the person doing so may be discomfiting those around them?

 

[Huckleberry]

Not having the freedom to be expressive, trying to please everyone one sees and suppressing natural desire all have the potential to be harmful. Hiding one's head behind a partition whenever a woman catches him looking at her harms him and potentially her too. A woman who thinks every guy that admires her body is a creep is doing harm to herself and maybe him.

We all must live our lives the way we feel is right. There will always be someone that thinks that is harmful. Choose any great humanitarian and there will be someone that claims they were harmed by that person because there was a conflict of interest. Some things should be harmed. Right and wrong is the only consideration I take into account. That's difficult enough.

Conflict of interests is unavoidable if a person is going to have their own ideas. If someone can't accept that people are going to think for themselves and make judgements then maybe they should never leave their home minimizing their contact with other human beings, or they could wear burkas or something. If a conflict of interest is harm then what is one to do? Does one change their opinion and actions and try to alter the way they feel to accommodate every stranger they see. I consider that a great harm.

Your objections are primarily what some woman might think of the guy that is looking at her. Those are her judgements of him. Who are those judgements harming, him or her? There's a whole world full of people afraid of being judged, seeking approval. That's why we hide behind partitions, pretend not to check people out when we really are, get surgical augmentations, develop eating disorders and wear miniskirts and burkas. I think most of that is lunacy. It creates a world where nothing can be trusted to be what it appears. Caring overmuch about a strangers judgement can do great harm. I don't care about people's judgements. I care about the person even if I hate their judgements. That's a critical distinction too that you hastily judged.

We all make judgements. Why pretend that we don't?

 

[Cryptonic]

Huckleberry says it all succinctly. I fully agree with him (her?).

(BTW how do you know I'm not a lesbian??)

Just for the record I'm a staunch supporter of equal rights and totally abhor the sexism that is rampant (still) in our culture. Even science itself is full of gendered terminology such as "mankind". I hate the word "mankind" - it's fundamentally ridiculous and must be completely offensive to women. "Humanity" is better - but it still carries the word "man" in it (just as "woman" does!). Maybe "peoplekind" is a better alternative...

Having said that, I am a man (no, not a lesbian) with heterosexual drives. The physical female form is extreeemely pleasing to me in a multitude of ways. It's a deep instinctive thing - IOW I really have NO idea why female "curves" and "bumps" fascinate and excite me so much!? But they DO. And I'm at least honest about it (unlike some of you "holier-than-thou" hypocritical snags! :) ).

I make no apologies for my ogling tendencies. Some women may not like it, too bad. Others lap up the male attention. They know they've got it and they strut it!

If I carried an emotional/moral affinity for every single human being on this planet, I would have killed myself years ago because there is simply too much suffering in this sick world. So I detach myself from excessive concern for others (except my friends, of course - which are a healthy mix of males AND females, I might add). That's how I survive and that's what I mean when I say "WHO CARES/TOO BAD" what a woman thinks if she catches me staring. It's a rather insignificant little "sin" of mine in the greater scheme of things...

(BTW I threw the "fat" and "ugly" thing in as a bit of a sociological experiment. I'm neither. But yes, I admit I am a bit awkward around women :blush )

 

[fuzzyfelt]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaze
Might be interesting.

 

[DaveC426913]

Not having the freedom to be expressive, trying to please everyone one sees and suppressing natural desire all have the potential to be harmful.

While that may be true, all we're talking about here is simply respecting others' personal space.

Hiding one's head behind a partition whenever a woman catches him looking at her harms him and potentially her too. A woman who thinks every guy that admires her body is a creep is doing harm to herself and maybe him.

We all must live our lives the way we feel is right. There will always be someone that thinks that is harmful. Choose any great humanitarian and there will be someone that claims they were harmed by that person because there was a conflict of interest. Some things should be harmed. Right and wrong is the only consideration I take into account. That's difficult enough.

Conflict of interests is unavoidable if a person is going to have their own ideas. If someone can't accept that people are going to think for themselves and make judgements then maybe they should never leave their home minimizing their contact with other human beings, or they could wear burkas or something. If a conflict of interest is harm then what is one to do? Does one change their opinion and actions and try to alter the way they feel to accommodate every stranger they see. I consider that a great harm.

You are arguing reducto ad absurdum. But it doesn't apply.

There is simply a general rule: respect others' personal space.

Your objections are primarily what some woman might think of the guy that is looking at her. Those are her judgements of him. Who are those judgements harming, him or her?

He is nonverbally communicating a message to her. His message is both clear and ambiguous at the same time.

It is clear that he is very attracted to her, and is devoting his full attention to her, that is he undressing her with his eyes. It is ambiguous as to his intent.

It has nothing to do with a judgement of the guy, she is wise to err on the side of caution. Her defenses go up. The consequences of her thinking the worst and being wrong about him are much smaller than her thinking the best and being wrong.

There's a whole world full of people afraid of being judged, seeking approval. That's why we hide behind partitions, pretend not to check people out when we really are, get surgical augmentations, develop eating disorders and wear miniskirts and burkas. I think most of that is lunacy. It creates a world where nothing can be trusted to be what it appears. Caring overmuch about a strangers judgement can do great harm. I don't care about people's judgements. I care about the person even if I hate their judgements. That's a critical distinction too that you hastily judged.

Straw man argument. Irrelevant.

 

[Cryptonic]

Dave, you are probably nice guy if I met you, but seriously, you are being dishonest with us/yourself.

Nobody's "perfect" = right? So, tell me, what is YOUR idiosyncracy/"sin"/weirdo-behaviour? EVERYBODY has some weirdo/weird-*** behavioural silliness...so, WHAT IS YOURS?

I want you to confess your sins here and now, my son!

LOL!

 

[JoVieira]

Dave, you are probably nice guy if I met you, but seriously, you are being dishonest with us/yourself.

Nobody's "perfect" = right? So, tell me, what is YOUR idiosyncracy/"sin"/weirdo-behaviour? EVERYBODY has some weirdo/weird-*** behavioural silliness...so, WHAT IS YOURS?

I want you to confess your sins here and now, my son!

LOL!

Aha yes that's a good one!

We all have something that's a bit odd about us hehe!