Caught Staring to Etiquette for Opposite Sex Interactions

[honestrosewater]

What assumptions do you guys agree on here? We need to have sensory contact with our environment. Encroachment on an individual's will should be minimized (though this is too imprecise). A person's thoughts are private. ?

If you compare looking with touching, I can see some of Dave's argument. Society seems to have acknowledged the concept of personal space and agreed that people deserve to enjoy theirs freely. And it is hard to ignore people blatantly staring at you. (I mean staring to be contact in excess of the incidental environmental contact that we need to have for navigation.) It's something that you notice just as easily as someone waving at you or saying something to you. Staring is similar to groping, no? The physical implementation is different, but the social behaviors are analogous.

If someone asked you to stop staring at them, would you?

Who cares what they think? People are scenery! Just stare and grab yourself an eyefull, is what I say. Who cares!? Girls insist on wearing short skirts and showing cleavage = I'm staring.

I don't get laid much because I'm fat and ugly and unconfident with women... so what have I got to lose? Girls are mostly stuck-up and snobby, so I'm going to blatantly stare and who cares what they may think?

It's funny to see girls in miniskirts constantly tugging their skirt down ha ha.

By the bye, the first thing this made me think of was the profile of an anger-retaliatory rapist. I'm not sure what, if anything, that implies, but it's something to think about.

 

[lurflurf]

By the bye, the first thing this made me think of was the profile of an anger-retaliatory rapist. I'm not sure what, if anything, that implies, but it's something to think about.

It might imply a tendency to think about rapists, it's something to think about.

 

[honestrosewater]

It might imply a tendency to think about rapists, it's something to think about.

Hah, true. But being raped or getting frequent aggressive sexual attention from people can make learning about rapists seem worthwhile. The more you know about them, the easier it is to avoid an attack or minimize your injuries if one occurs. My risk of being raped is probably relatively high. I'm female, 27, single, live alone, lots of men find me attractive, I don't wear burkas, and I am actually trying to attract the attention of some men -- I'd like to find a nice one. There's lots of controversy over rape statistic, though, so it's hard to gauge your real risk.

 

[Bourbaki1123]

Cute response - smile, blush and look away
Cool response - smile, talk to her, get her phone number
Geek response - go over to her and say, wow cool mac book - what processor does it have? While totally ignoring her.

you missed the computer scientist with Aspergers response/Rude geek response(I assume you picked the polite geek, because the rude geek would also do this); tell her her mac book is overpriced garbage and she is stupid for buying it. Even though she is stupid, she is pretty so you would be glad to build her a better one; you know how to get around the protections for Os X so you can set up a dual boot with Os X and the copy of Windows 7 you have in a hidden partition devoted only to storing Warez.

Really, I like that response the best if you don't really want to get a date but you nonetheless like to help the misguided.

Or you could try to convert her to Linux and keep doing so long after she has expressed little interest. Then you could offer to send her an invite to any number of private torrent communities.

If you are looking for some other kind of advice indirectly read this:
If you want to meet women try places where people share common interests. For instance, if you like art or film go to some film and art festivals. If you dig math, there are a surprising number of attractive girls at math talks (especially ones where students present, I went to one last year and there were definitely some lookers there amongst the old bearded men and sweaty pimply faced yet bright eyed geeks).

There has to be some kind of music you are into, go to local concerts. My friend met his girl friend of 9 months at one. Although honestly the music there was terrible.

 

[Cryptonic]

Sorry, what exactly is an "anger-retaliatory rapist"?

Are you accusing me of being a potential rapist because I admire women?

Seriously, you must... argh I don't even need to say it.

EDIT: Next you will say that masturbation is rape!

 

[bp_psy]

EDIT: Next you will say that masturbation is rape!

Well, Does the hand actually give the consent ?

 

[JasonRox]

I check out girls all the time. Not often I stare though.

 

[DaveC426913]

Dave, you are probably nice guy if I met you, but seriously, you are being dishonest with us/yourself.

Nobody's "perfect" = right? So, tell me, what is YOUR idiosyncracy/"sin"/weirdo-behaviour? EVERYBODY has some weirdo/weird-*** behavioural silliness...so, WHAT IS YOURS?

I want you to confess your sins here and now, my son!

LOL!

In https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2362280&postcount=93" I explicitly said - for all to see - that "I am a terrible starer". That is 2 posts before this whole 'who cares' discussion started in post 95.

I am not judging right/wrong or should/shouldn't. (I can't - I am a perp too.)

I am directly addressing the misconception that there is no potential for harm, which JoeVieira started in https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2363138&postcount=97".

In a nutshell, I stare, but I do not delude myself into thinking there's nothing wrong with it.


That is all I've been addressing. The whole 'who cares we're all human' argument is a straw man.

 

[Cryptonic]

Well, Does the hand actually give the consent ?

No, it doesn't. I rape myself frequently.

Hey Honestrosewater, I want to ask you a question: What is YOUR "sin"? What do YOU do that is "naughty"? I like to admire women's physical beauty - that is MY "sin". What is yours? Do you like to check out guys? Or are you asexual? Nobody on this Earth is "perfect", so you MUST have some sort of character blemish. What is it? What part of you do you wish you didn't carry around?

Or are you perfect?

 

[JasonRox]

There are much better things to do with women than stare at them.

 

[JasonRox]

No, it doesn't. I rape myself frequently.

Hey Honestrosewater, I want to ask you a question: What is YOUR "sin"? What do YOU do that is "naughty"? I like to admire women's physical beauty - that is MY "sin". What is yours? Do you like to check out guys? Or are you asexual? Nobody on this Earth is "perfect", so you MUST have some sort of character blemish. What is it? What part of you do you wish you didn't carry around?

Or are you perfect?

Just so you know there is a line between... Horny and admiring a women's beauty. Sounds like you're horny.

 

[Cryptonic]

There are much better things to do with women than stare at them.

Now THERE'S a rapist if I ever met one LOL!

 

[Cryptonic]

I must say this is a funny discourse.

 

[honestrosewater]

Sorry, what exactly is an "anger-retaliatory rapist"?

It's a type in one of the rapist typologies. I don't recall who developed it, and I can't find a single source that explains it succinctly. I read cases of actual rapists from various sources, and your comments reminded me of theirs. It's hard to pinpoint exactly, but here are some things: the total lack of concern for what the woman wants or thinks, viewing them as having no respectable will and the sole purpose of giving you pleasure (them being scenery), the suggestion that they are all alike in their bad behavior towards you (being stuck-up and snobby), your justification that they are asking for it by behaving in certain ways, your being entertained by their discomfort or humiliation.

The ANGER-RETALIATION rapist
is getting even with women for real or imaginary wrongs.
They are angry with women and are using sex as a weapon to punish them.
The crime itself is usually not premeditated, and a "blitz" attack is often used.
The actual sexual assault will take little time, and the whole encounter may be very short. Once the pent-up
anger is vented, the rapist quickly leaves.
This type of rapist tends to attack women who are somewhat older than he is, often somebody who symbolizes
somebody else.
They like to rip or tear the clothing off, and will often use their fists, hitting the victim in the stomach usually.
After such an attack, the offender feels a great deal of relief, until his tension and anger against women as the
source of all his problems builds up again. The biological clock on a rapist such as this is 6 months to a year.

"www-psychology.concordia.ca/fac/Laurence/forensic/rapists.pdf"[/URL][/quote]Actually, now that I look at this again, maybe you sound more like the power-assertive type. You don't have to sound like any type, of course. It was just an association that I immediately made.

[quote]Are you accusing me of being a potential rapist because I admire women?[/quote]Well, the short answer would be no. That is why I explicitly admitted that it might not imply anything. The longer answer would be that it makes more sense to me to say that everyone is a potential rapist and then assign each person a probability of committing a rape in a given time period. Under that interpretation, I am saying that the beliefs about and attitudes toward women that you expressed sound similar to those expressed by people who have committed rape, so your chances of becoming a rapist might be higher.

[quote]EDIT: Next you will say that masturbation is rape![/QUOTE]Why would I say that?

 

[bp_psy]

No, it doesn't. I rape myself frequently.

No problem there.As long it is not in a anger-retaliatory kind of way.

 

[JasonRox]

Mocking rape.

I'm not impressed.

 

[honestrosewater]

Hey Honestrosewater, I want to ask you a question: What is YOUR "sin"? What do YOU do that is "naughty"? I like to admire women's physical beauty - that is MY "sin". What is yours? Do you like to check out guys? Or are you asexual? Nobody on this Earth is "perfect", so you MUST have some sort of character blemish. What is it? What part of you do you wish you didn't carry around?

Or are you perfect?

Like Dave and Jason have said, this does not address the topic. No one is claiming that anyone is perfect or can be. And I am not talking about admiring beauty. I am talking about your beliefs about a class of people and a failure to acknowledge or respect the wills of the people who you are interacting with.

I agree that people are scenery in a way and that there are practical and perhaps theoretical limitations to how much you can or should care about what others want. However, I think there is point where a person's will or desire should influence your behavior, and I don't see that you agree with that. This is why I asked if you would stop staring at someone if they asked you to.

I have already said that I do look at men and women as sexual objects without asking their permission, though I don't blatantly stare (or yell or honk or make obscene gestures/comments or do other things that I would consider rude or annoying). It's not something that I've given much thought before. But now that I think about it, I do see some things that are objectionable about it.

 

[DaveC426913]

I have already said that I do look at men and women as sexual objects without asking their permission, though I don't blatantly stare (or yell or honk or make obscene gestures/comments or do other things that I would consider rude or annoying). It's not something that I've given much thought before. But now that I think about it, I do see some things that are objectionable about it.

To Cryptonic et al: No one (including me) is suggesting it is a reprehensible act to check someone out.

I would be happy if y'all acknowledged that
- there is a grey area between 'checking out' and 'ogling - who cares what they think'
- there is a point in that grey area where it will likely cause stress and anxiety in the target
- the problem lies in not knowing (or caring) where within the grey area lies the boundary beyond which harm occurs
- crossing that line, regardless of whether intentionally or unintentionally is the real injustice here.

 

[muppet]

Going back a bit: do women who get asked out spontaeously by guys (who may or may not have been staring at them) have any issues with the guy making an approach based entirely on their physical form?

*Unless, of course, that apart from being drop-dead gorgeous you've somehow given him an easy way in; I still cling to the hope of finding a stunner who's set aside her copy of Weinberg's field theory text to relax with the Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy whilst drinking decent coffee and audibly listening to Nina Simone :!) [/size]

 

[Huckleberry]

While that may be true, all we're talking about here is simply respecting others' personal space.


You are arguing reducto ad absurdum. But it doesn't apply.

There is simply a general rule: respect others' personal space.

He is nonverbally communicating a message to her. His message is both clear and ambiguous at the same time.

It is clear that he is very attracted to her, and is devoting his full attention to her, that is he undressing her with his eyes. It is ambiguous as to his intent.

It has nothing to do with a judgement of the guy, she is wise to err on the side of caution. Her defenses go up. The consequences of her thinking the worst and being wrong about him are much smaller than her thinking the best and being wrong.

Straw man argument. Irrelevant.

At first I was talking about what is right or wrong and you said we were discussing what is harmful. So I talk about the harms of looking. Toss some latin words and call my argument a strawman when it describes absurd, yes, but very real harmful human behaviour caused by judgement. Now we are talking about respecting personal space, presumably because that is the right thing to do because it doesn't cause discomfort. (which isn't true anyway)

You talk of the effects of a man's stare on a woman and say that there is no judgement on her part. This is the list you provided.

You must realize that the target has no idea that
- you are a nice guy and you wil respect her space
- your attentions are no more intrusive than someone asking for directions to the subway
- you are not about to approach her, meaning she'll have to deal with a possible pickup (in-and-of-itself, probably one of the most stressful situations a person can spontaneously find themselves in)
- you are not actually lusting after her
- you are not a loon

Every line starts with 'you' which implies the viewer in this case. She is both being judged and judging in return, rightfully so I say.

The only harm you mention is stress caused by not knowing his intentions. Yes, that can be stressful. So we should reveal our intentions with our actions and our words and our eyes, rather than hide them in pretense. In this case you underestimate the amount of information that can be transmitted in a glance. The reaction that takes place is nonverbal, but perhaps much clearer and honest because of it. Being caught staring signals interest. Getting caught is what is supposed to happen if one wants to convey that interest. If the response is a smile then it might be a good idea to approach the woman of interest. If she sneers then approaching would be out of the question. From my experience women are not as defensive as you would make them out to be.

Even if a man's unknown intentions do cause a woman discomfort, her personal space does not extend to his thoughts. Uncertainty may cause discomfort, but both uncertainty and discomfort are a fact of life that people have to deal with, men and women alike, just by the fact that we are mortal creatures with stomachs and independent thought. I don't know what she'll think of me so I better not look at her is no way that I choose to live my life. That's the discomfort of the guy who hides behind partitions. She is free to think whatever pleases her and I'll do the same. Isn't that what respecting others personal space is all about in this context?

You say that not looking at a woman is a way to not cause her discomfort. I disagree with this. Even if she walks around all day and doesn't catch a single guy checking her out (which would be uncomfortable for some women too) there is still the possibility that something truly harmful can happen. Whether guys look at her or not, none of the real danger is lessened to her. If anything, catching guys staring at her works to her benefit, because it makes people's interests clear. She can trust at least that much to be true, which is one thing she didn't know if nobody looks under the pretense of being gentlemanly. Saying not to look at women sexually is the same as saying not to think about women sexually. It's not a viable option unless one is in a commited relationship with one particular person.

 

[Bourbaki1123]

I don't think anyone has a problem with being approached as long as you aren't aggressive or willfully persistent after being rejected.

I think many women probably are creeped out when guys stare at them for long periods of time, but I balance this out; I stare at everyone for long periods of time and express little to no emotion. If they look away I keep staring until they check again and leave quickly when they look away the second time. Sometimes I pop up going the opposite direction as they leave the building, and then I make sure they see me near their car in the parking lot from a distance but disappear when they get close using my serial stalker ninja powers.

 

[muppet]

... but disappear when they get close using my serial stalker ninja powers.

One time I was in a bar on a college football social when I bumped into a (admittedly not unattractive) girl I already knew. My "friends" figuring I was chatting her up, started walking over from the other side of the room, one at a time at irregular intervals and asked me how the ninja training was going. One particular lad had obviously not been party to the original joke, and wandered over with a really confused look on his face: "Alright Rob, people keep telling me you're a ninja?"

 

[Huckleberry]

To Cryptonic et al: No one (including me) is suggesting it is a reprehensible act to check someone out.

I would be happy if y'all acknowledged that
- there is a grey area between 'checking out' and 'ogling - who cares what they think'
- there is a point in that grey area where it will likely cause stress and anxiety in the target
- the problem lies in not knowing (or caring) where within the grey area lies the boundary beyond which harm occurs
- crossing that line, regardless of whether intentionally or unintentionally is the real injustice here.

Yes, there is a difference between checking out and oggling. It can be pervasive and uncomfortable. It doesn't happen to me very often so I'm not too familiar with it. When underage girls look at me I feel that discomfort. When the Dairy Queen man looked at me I felt discomfort. There have been a few women that I wasn't interested in that looked at me rather persistently and that was uncomfortable. I never felt threatened by any of them though. It doesn't bother me that they stared. The discomfort was momentary.

I suppose if it was a habitual experience and happened everywhere I went then I might feel differently. I'd be indifferent to people's stares rather than be uncomfortable. If I felt threatened then I might be very defensive about how people look at me. The real injustice is the crimes that instil the fear of threat in a gaze.

 

[honestrosewater]

Going back a bit: do women who get asked out spontaeously by guys (who may or may not have been staring at them) have any issues with the guy making an approach based entirely on their physical form?]

By 'spontaneously' do you mean in a context where it is unexpected? I don't mind, but I don't know if I am typical in this respect. If you are interested in a sexual relationship with someone, physical attraction is important. I think this situation is a little tricky because, even if the motivation is welcome and all, the approach might not be. There is a conflict for me between knowing that someone might just want to be left alone and not wanting to miss an opportunity.

I saw this guy at school the other day who I thought was cute. I thought about saying something to him, but it seemed weird. I didn't know him at all. We just passed by each other. My approaching him would pretty much have said that I thought he was cute and wanted to know more about him. But I knew that maybe he was just trying to get to class and didn't want to deal with me. So I just smiled and left him alone. But when I am on the other side of that and the guy approaches me, it is understandable and acceptable even if it is an imposition of sorts. You can't really fault someone for asking. Even when the guy is not considerate in his approach, it is just one of those things that you have to deal with in order be part of society. It's a small price to pay. Honking and yelling things is pretty much the only thing that gets to the point of being genuinely annoying to me. This happens a lot when I am out running and I just want to enjoy my run and block out the rest of the world. Sometimes it is startling because I am not really paying attention and then suddenly someone is honking at me, and I think I am about to get hit or something, but then the guy whistles or shouts some baby-something and I want to punch him. So, yeah. I do suggest that you refrain from that. Please. Tell your friends. I totally don't get the point of it anyway. Maybe if someone could explain it, I would find it less annoying.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Consider what it must be like for a man to go through life (particularly one that is not particularly handsome) dealing with the fact that a significant number of women out there may well look at him and wonder if he is a rapist. He gets caught staring at a woman who seems discomfited by his merely looking at her and he has to wonder what this woman must think of him that she seems uncomfortable, or even offended, that he would dine to notice her or find her attractive.

But we are focused on the person being looked at for some reason even though that person can gather little from it other than that the person looking likely finds them attractive. And that's supposed to be damaging in some way?

and I am actually trying to attract the attention of some men -- I'd like to find a nice one.

I'm not directing this at you Rose, I have no idea what you are like out in the real world, but it has always struck me as funny these women that dress up sexy to get attention and then go out and get upset when guys that they are not interested in look at them. The number of times I have seen a woman showing off a bunch of cleavage only to suddenly feel the need to cover herself up after seeing what company she is in is just hilarious.

Its hard to take women seriously when they act like this and part of the reason many of us men really don't care what a woman thinks about us looking at her.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Going back a bit: do women who get asked out spontaeously by guys (who may or may not have been staring at them) have any issues with the guy making an approach based entirely on their physical form?

I once asked a woman out that was working at a store I was in. I had seen her once before and thought she was very pretty, she also seemed to have a sort of personality I like from the way in which she carried herself, so I just went for it. She said she had a boyfriend but she seemed flattered and even smiled and seemed happy to see me the next time I was in the store (I was rather embarrassed myself).

I totally don't get the point of it anyway. Maybe if someone could explain it, I would find it less annoying.

It works. Crazy as it sounds it sometimes actually works. Not that I have done it but I have seen it done successfully (and I'm fairly certain she was not a hooker).

 

[Cyrus]

Every post in this thread cracks me up.

 

[Huckleberry]

I totally don't get the point of it anyway. Maybe if someone could explain it, I would find it less annoying.

It works. Crazy as it sounds it sometimes actually works. Not that I have done it but I have seen it done successfully (and I'm fairly certain she was not a hooker).

Do they stop long enough for an approach to work? I've always just considered it an outburst of testosterone, kinda like saying "Good afternoon Miss. I consider you to be an attractive woman and if we were in different circumstances I would feel obliged to inform you of my opinions and possibly see if you were busy this Friday." It comes out as "Woohoo!"

I was like 13 and walking to the store with my mother when a bunch of young men drove by. One of them honked and howled at my mom and they kept on driving. She laughed a little and said nobody had done that to her for a while. I'm not sure if that means she minded or appreciated it or both or neither. I got the impression from the way she laughed that it was a little of both.

I was just visiting home from the navy and was walking down the street and a car full of girls honks at me. I turn around and start walking towards them and they freak out and start yelling at the driver to go. I guess I must look pretty good from behind but like week old roadkill from the front. They took off pretty quick. It must be my snaggletooth smile.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Do they stop long enough for an approach to work?

Yes. I've seen women stop and talk to men that honked at them. You'd almost think that they were picking up prostitutes except that it was broad daylight and not an area where you see prostitutes. I've also seen guys just standing around suddenly say something like "Hey baby, where are you going?" and have a phone number only a couple of minutes later.

 

[honestrosewater]

Yes. I've seen women stop and talk to men that honked at them. You'd almost think that they were picking up prostitutes except that it was broad daylight and not an area where you see prostitutes. I've also seen guys just standing around suddenly say something like "Hey baby, where are you going?" and have a phone number only a couple of minutes later.

Now that I think of it, I did used to get into cars with strangers when I was young and stupid (so incredibly stupid). I was thinking of guys who don't stop or turn around, which makes the message seem pointless, though I suppose they might have stopped if I had given some indication that I wanted them to. I don't think there is any good way for me to test this, though.

Consider what it must be like for a man to go through life (particularly one that is not particularly handsome) dealing with the fact that a significant number of women out there may well look at him and wonder if he is a rapist

Do some guys really feel this way?