Medical Synesthesia, some people perceive individual symbols, characters, numbers

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Synesthesia is a fascinating neurological phenomenon where individuals perceive letters, numbers, and symbols as having distinct colors or sensory attributes. Many artists and creative individuals, including notable figures like Richard Feynman, report experiencing this condition, which can enhance their creative processes. Personal accounts highlight that synesthesia is not necessarily a disability; rather, it can provide unique insights and advantages in perception and memory. The discussion includes references to literature, such as "The Man Who Tasted Shapes" by Richard Cytowic, which explores various forms of synesthesia and their implications. Overall, synesthesia offers a compelling glimpse into the complexities of human perception and cognition.
  • #91


rhody said:
If I have a nodding off experience and see similar colors with the same stimuli will I think that I had a glimpse into what some experience daily.

This experience suggests the mechanism might be discovered in the information we have about how brain functions change between wakefulness and sleep.
 
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  • #92


zoobyshoe said:
This experience suggests the mechanism might be discovered in the information we have about how brain functions change between wakefulness and sleep.

I've seen a couple of references to research or to a paper relating this with cross-modality, possibly authored by Sagiv again, but haven't actually seen any work.
 
  • #93


This is a continuation of post #34, the first half of the book, numbers 16 and greater are the last part. I wanted to keep it all together and to remind myself as I complete my short (but detailed when needed) summary.

1. Mingling of two or more of the sensations (sight, sound, touch, taste, smell) in a cross modal fashion. Most commonly reported is color and hearing.

2. Synesthetic experience is constant and stable (same stimulus results in same response) for the most part. There is no known abnormal pathology known to it.

3. More women than men have it, or at least are reported to admit having it.

4. Seven of the forty two individuals studied by Cytowic had immediate relatives who had it, suggesting there is a genetic component to it.

5. There is no known agreement when those with mixed sensations of say color hearing when two individuals with that trait were compared, their experiences and descriptions were completely unique to the individual describing them.

6. Cytowic was impressed at how highly individualized the triggering stimuli usually are, explaining why the expression of synesthesia vary from person to person. It is an all or nothing trait, and some people seem to have it more than others.

7. Human imagination fill the gaps of those (without it) in trying to understand it. Those who experience it daily have trouble describing the "ineffable quality" of it, leading to bewilderment and confusion of those trying to grasp it. It must be experienced, and cannot be imparted or transferred to others.

6. Failure of tests for items 5 thru 7 above lead Cytowic to a more qualitative investigation of the triune brain, from the bottom up, from the primitive brain (brain stem structures), to the limbic system, and finally to the cortex to determine the origins) of the mixed sensations that those with syesthesia experience. Were one or more of these structures responsible, and if so which and why.

7. Cytowic designed and administered a series of tests designed to qualify what those people experiencing synesthesia were sensing, this result being what is known as "Form Constants", now believed to be a limited number of perceptual frameworks, that appear to be built into the nervous system and are probably part of our genetic heritage.

8. Synesthesia can be induced temporarily by those who use LSD. LSD exerts three physiological actions, two of which oppose one another. It enhances low-level synapses coming from the brainstem relay, the hypothalmus, and at the same time suppressing the synaptic connections between the hypothalmus and high brain areas. Third, LSD causes an overall alertness and enhancement of synaptic pathways to the limbic system, the part of the brain that gives meaning to events and is concerned with emotion and memory. This part is key, "by blocking the normal flow at a point before a unified experience is created, LSD makes it 'stick" at a detail of the perception, like when a phonograph needle skips and plays the same part of a record over and over.

9. Those with synesthasia have great memory for detail, and an indelible recollection of the synesthetic event itself.

10. Temporal Lobe Epilepsy (TLE) can result in the joining of the elements of smell, taste, vision, touch and hearing, memory and emotion and epileptic synesthesia occurs in four percent of TLE events. A personal observation here, compared to people with lifelong synesthesia I can imagine it must be very frightening to suddenly be barraged with a 'mingling of the senses", whereas people who have synesthesia are used to its stimuli and effects.

11. Cytowic and Dr David Stump, an expert in measuring brain metabolism, used a cerebral blood flow (CBF) technique in which a radioactive isotope of xeon (harmless inert gas) is used to identify what areas of the brain are processing, given the blood and glucose is being delivered and consumed, with a helmet device fitted with radiation detectors (16) measuring 16 different brain regions while the subject engages in a task, in this case one that induces a synesthesia response.

12. A baseline state was taken, then two tests were conducted, one to simply stimulate the patient with a stimuli that resulted in a synesthesia response, and the second test, this time adding amyl nitrate (to boost the synesthesia response).
All three tests, baseline, normal stimuli, and normal stimuli with amyl nitrate went smoothly each lasting about eight minutes.

13. Review of the data yielded the following: baseline, low flow for someone the patients age, normal stimuli resulted in the blood flow to the left hemisphere of the patients brain at 18% less than in the baseline, that's right, than in the baseline, Holy crap ! The amount of flow is three times below the accepted flow of a normal person's. This was the first time Dr Stump (who was stumped, pun intended) had ever seen a reduced flow during the activation task (in this case a stimuli that brings on the sensation of synesthesia). The same effect was observed when amyl nitrate was administered. Synesthesia does not occur in the cortex, basically it shuts down when it occurs. The energy is being stimulated in the limbic brain, in the area where zoobyshoe describes as the hippocampus, which up to now I was under the assumption has to do with the storing of new memories, which makes sense in that people with this trait are able to retrieve them in great detail. I just didn't realize that it may be an area where a mingling of the senses occur. One point to note, the limbic system is deep enough that its metabolic activity is beyond the range of the CBF test to detect it.

14. Drugs can either stimulate or block the effects of synesthetes as follows:
The human cortex as we will see later plays an important part in either enhancing or dulling the effect of synesthasia.

15. As a rule when the cortex is depressed (reduced blood flow results in enhanced synesthesia effects) and when stimulated (increased blood flow results in a dulling or blocking effect of the sensation), Amphetimines block or dull the effects of synesthesia, while alcohol and amyl nitrate enhance it.

16. In 1922 Max Planck's principle dictates that of all possible paths, the one selected is the one that uses the least possible energy.

17. The limbic system processes input quickly, enhances cortical processes, and by extensive reasoning, reduces entropy, acts on incomplete information, creates order from continuous and incoherent of sensations, this gives humans their esthetic capacity. This capacity to determine relevance is what makes us unpredictable and creative.

18. The brain stem and cerebellum provide an action component for motor output, the model of the world is contained in the cerebral cortex, while the critic lives in the limbic system.

I think I understand (basically two main concepts) so far, areas of the brain operate at different frequencies and when triggered by a visual, sound, smell, taste, or touch stimulus can cause other areas in the brain, (normally suppressed to everything but that stimulus) to create a near simultaneous activation in the brain which for most of us is silent because the adjacent processing area in the brain does not respond.

19. Cytowic in his afterward (page 243) published in 2003 puts the elaborate and at time simplified explanation to rest, in 2002, a functional MRI study by Julia Nunn confirmed what was long expected: V4 activation (without V1 or V2 activity(early visual areas)) in synesthetes who see color in response to spoken words. Whereas both synesthetes and controls activated auditory and language areas as expected, the synesthetes also activated the color area (V4), but only on the left--in agreement with earlier results. Such lateralization is tantalizing, given their color experiences were not confined to the right visual field. The fMRI technique, which is the most refined one we have to date, also disclosed activation in transmodal areas concerned with memory and affect, consistent with both the subjective statements and clinical observations of synesthetes.

An unexpected result of this study was when actually viewing colored surfaces, synesthetes don not activate their left V4, the area for color. Right V4 did function for both synesthetes and controls. Ordinarily viewing colors activates both right and left V4, as well as ealry visual areas V1 and V2. The implication therefore, is that participation of left V4 in synesthetic color experience renders it unavailable for color perception--in other words, synesthesia appears to have hijacked an existing brain function. This surprise is consistent with the observation that nonsynesthetes merely imagining colors (compared to performing a visual control task not involving color) do not activate V4, Thus the brain basis of synesthetic color experience is consistent with real color perception rather than color imagery. This refutes earlier criticisms that synesthetes are just "making it up" or have "overactive imaginations."

20. Most who study synesthesia now believe that inheriting an X-linked dominant genertic mutation results in failure in synesthetes' brains to prune juvenile projections between brain structures that normally exist temporariliy during the development of all brains. Everyone is born synesthetic, only to lose the capacity as the brain matures.

21. An exception to the people who have not had their brain structures pruned is when we are able to quiet the chatter of our cognitive mind. Roger Walsh of the University of California (2002) has evidence to support it. He says synesthasia is one hundred times more common in meditative states compared to baseline prevalence. With increasing levels of experience, the numbers who experience synesthesia increases (35% vs 63%). Even within the most inexperienced beginners groups those experiencing synesthesia had twice as much average practice time (17 years) than those who did not experience synesthesia (8 years). Among a third group who had between 24 to 31 years of practice, over half had polymodal experiences and also perceived categories synesthetically--thoughts, emtions, and images felt as a sensation. For all three groups, synesthesia was most apparent during meditation.

I will add the remaining information on the binding problem and the linking to metaphor and language tomorrow evening before the thread is no longer editable.

I hope you all have enjoyed this wild ride. I know I have.

P.S.

Here is some background info I was looking at while researching this post:

Here are a couple of useful videos for context: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6KpIrKCDwg"

I found this paper: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=alph...&oq=alpha+frequ&gs_rfai=&fp=84c7fb41710deb10"

Rhody... :biggrin:

Zooby: Fixed #1, sorry I missed it. More this evening...
 
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  • #94


rhody said:
zooby,

I think this thread has plenty of life...

Rhody...

You're welcome
 
  • #95


Rhody, # 1 needs to be fixed. The most common, as reported by Cytowic at that time, was Colored Hearing.

See page 51:

"I had soon found many cases of synesthesia recorded in both the scientific and general literature, as well as two books devoted to it. Colored Hearing was published in French in 1890, while a German text appeared in 1927 called Colored Hearing and the Synesthetic Factor of Experience. Most accounts emphasized colored hearing, which I discovered was the most common form of synesthesia."

Since this book was published we know he's declared that Grapheme -> Color syesthesia is the most common.

The kind experienced by the title 'character,' taste -> touch is, incidentally, an exceptionally rare form. Cytowic's life's work was sparked by his accidental encounter with an extremely unusual case.
 
  • #96


flatmaster said:
You're welcome

Flatmaster,

No disrespect intended to you the OP, thank you for starting this thread...

Just curious, did you have a chance to look at this thread, started back in March, https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=374522" Post #7, that's where this whole little adventure into synesthesia started, with zoobyshoe mentioning Cytowic's book ? I took the bait, bought it, read it, and the rest they say is history.

Rhody...
 
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  • #97


So, Rhody, the question is, having finished the book, what did you find salient? What stands out in your mind? How did it alter your conception of things?
 
  • #98


zoobyshoe said:
So, Rhody, the question is, having finished the book, what did you find salient? What stands out in your mind? How did it alter your conception of things?

zooby,

I was in the process of updating my post last night with the summary and it timed out so I lost everything I was typing, not cool. I will add a summary on the binding problem in a bit, I just don't feel like trying to recreate it all from scratch right now.

I enjoyed the book, and like any investigator I have more questions (focused this time with a bit of background to guide me). I want to know the area name or names associated with all five senses, the book focused on the sight color areas extensively, most likely because there were few subjects to test with the rarer forms of synesthesia, for instance smell -> sound 0.3%, touch -> smell 0.3%, taste -> hearing 0.3% (from 365 cases compiled by Sean Day Ph,D. moderator of the synesthesia list) as well as combined rare sense ones.

I want to find a case whether person has bi-directional synesthesia and how it debilitates them, keeping them out of society because of the confusion caused by the reverberating sensations, that must be an awful way to live.

A personal observation, if the day comes that a very well produced documentary appears on Frontline, 60 Minutes, or 48 Hours, and all the media attention that goes with it awakens the world to synesthesia, that someday in the not too distant future Dr Cytowic and Dr Eagleman may wake up to find shiny little gold Nobel medallion(s) around their necks. That is my humble and biased opinion.

Rhody...
 
  • #99


If you're in the mood to ponder debilitating things, take a break from synesthesia and get a quick and tragic tour of what the hippocampus is all about:

Clive Wearing - the man with no memory
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=315603

This will show you, among other things, why Cytowic's early theory of the hippocampus as the "location" of synesthesia didn't really make much sense. The hippocampus is about memory. Everything's connected to the hippocampus because every experience is always being compared to memory.

Watch the videos when you have time but also be sure to read the excellent article by Sacks:
OliverSacks said:
Episodic or explicit memory, we know, develops relatively late in childhood and is dependent on a complex brain system involving the hippocampi and medial temporal-lobe structures, the system that is compromised in severe amnesiacs and all but obliterated in Clive.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/09/24/070924fa_fact_sacks?currentPage=all
 
  • #100


rhody said:
A personal observation, if the day comes that a very well produced documentary appears on Frontline, 60 Minutes, or 48 Hours, and all the media attention that goes with it awakens the world to synesthesia, that someday in the not too distant future Dr Cytowic and Dr Eagleman may wake up to find shiny little gold Nobel medallion(s) around their necks. That is my humble and biased opinion.

Rhody...

Going back further, I think it is interesting that Francis Galton, who first described this sort of thing, and who wrote that the “tendency is very hereditary” (Sir Francis Galton, 1883, "Inquiries into Human Faculty") was Charles Darwin’s relative. They were half-cousins, who shared a Grand-Father in Erasmus Darwin, who wrote a treatise on “generation”, which was influenced by associationism, and which anticipated Lamarckism. Galton and Charles Darwin were also generally friends who visited, and corresponded with, each other.
 
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  • #101


fuzzyfelt said:
Going back further, I think it is interesting that Francis Galton, who first described this sort of thing, and who wrote that the “tendency is very hereditary” (Sir Francis Galton, 1883, "Inquiries into Human Faculty") was Charles Darwin’s relative. They were half-cousins, who shared a Grand-Father in Erasmus Darwin, who wrote a treatise on “generation”, which was influenced by associationism, and which anticipated Lamarckism. Galton and Charles Darwin were also generally friends who visited, and corresponded with, each other.

Yes indeed, I found about this yesterday. Francis Galton was quite a scientist, and he made many contributions in various fields

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Galton
 
  • #102


This is a continuation of post #93. Making additions to #1 with rarer types of synesthesia, all other stuff is new starting with #22.

1. Mingling of two or more of the sensations (sight, sound, touch, taste, smell) in a cross modal fashion. Most commonly reported is color and hearing. Rarer types: page 232 from Dr Sean Day's study of 365 cases, all in percentages:

Note: The first group are grapheme associations, the rest, rarer still are mingled sense sensations:

colored time units: 19.2
colored musical sounds 14.5
colored general sounds 12.1
colored phonemes 9.6
colored musical notes 10.4
colored tastes 6.3
colored personalities 4.4
colored pain 4.4 (woah, I would like to hear from someone with this trait)
colored odors 5.8
colored temperature 2.2
colored touch 1.9

and

sound -> touch 2.7
sound -> taste 2.7
sound -> smell 1.1
sound -> temperature 0.5
taste -> touch 1.1
taste -> hearing 0.3
touch -> taste 0.5
touch -> hearing 0.5
touch -> smell 0.3
vision -> taste 1.9
vision -> hearing 1.1
vision -> smell 1.1
vision -> touch 0.8
smell -> touch 1.1
smell -> sound 0.3

22. 1923 Max Planc defined a principle that says, among all possible paths, the one taken is always the one that uses the least energy. The principle finds itself exquisitely expressed in the efficiency of the human brain.

23. It is worth noting the rates at which parts of the brain are believed to process information (internally) and accept input from and provide input to:
a. Limbic system (400 hz internal clock), inputs to/outputs from 5 hz, 80/1 ratio
b. Cortex (high speed internal clock, rate not provided) , inputs to/outputs from 10 hz
c. Communication between limbic system and cortex: 2:1 ratio

The rest of the summary is from the Afterword published in 2003.

24. Cytowic's definition of the characteristics required for synesthesia:
1. Involuntary and automatic
2. Spatially extended
3. Consistent and generic
4. Memorable
5. Affect laden (carrying a sense of certitude, trivial tasks are filled with "emotional effect", mostly pleasurable, except in rare cases: vile tasting words, or nausea hearing a voice or musical instrument.

I originally said I was going to report on The Binding Problem, and Metaphor and Language. It turns out that only the Binding Problem presents new information (to me anyway).

25. Binding problem summary: diverse attributes are processed in different areas and at different times in the brain. Consider the perception of: color, orientation and motion, according to Cytowic they are processed in this order but with a delay of 30 ms between color and orientation, and a 40 ms delay between orientation and motion. How does the brain process this and make it seamless ?

26. Cytowic suggests the brain searches for "constancy" by assigning essential features to a category. The mystery is how the brain perceives and processes constantly changing input, assigning objects their constant features.

27. Cytowic suggests a new model for processing within the brain, taken from chapter 6: Synesthesia: A Union of the Senses, summarized by:
1. Distribution of function across structures.
2. Simultaneity of activity on several levels
3. Use transmodal (not pertaining to anyone sense) models (V4: color, V5: motion and direction) that do three things:
a. Construct multi-sensory representations of the world
b. Lend memory and affect to experience
c. Participate in establishing categories via groups of coarsely tuned neurons.

28. The model organizes brain tissue into five major networks (one per sense), and many lesser distributed systems, a critical idea here is one of multiple synaptic levels being active simultaneously, with each node capable of influencing the state of adjacent levels (resulting in a synesthetic experience).

And that, my friends is a brief summary of the book...

Rhody...
 
  • #103


Here is an example of what a long term of what someone who has meditated for over 20 years can achieve, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFFMtq5g8N4&feature=fvw" he shows how he can quiet all areas in his brain and describes the frequency ranges, and shows proof on a portable EEG machine, bringing to a halt all measured frequencies on the EEG during meditation.

Here is his http://www.kenwilber.com/blog/list/1" if you play his second video, "The Sky Turns into a Bog Blue Pancake", fast forward to 4:20 where he says, "you can actually taste the sky in that sense", definitely a synesthetic connection, he goes on to say how viewing a mountain, he can actually touch it. It seems Ken has multi-sensory synesthesia (taste, touch), as a direct result of decades of meditation.

So we have concrete proof and testimony from someone who has meditated for over two decades and what he has been able to achieve, here is his http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Wilber" .

Here is an older (2002) testimony of http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro01/web1/White.html" , who describes a synesthetic experience, but only while dreaming. See her description below.
When I was very young, I experienced a recurring dream that I was staring, entranced, at a delicate white flower. It was like nothing I had seen or experienced in my waking life, because the pristine, thinly-veined petals were such an exquisite color that it manifested itself upon my dreaming brain as a color and a sound. The white song was a single note - like a distant choir lifting its voice in concerted wonder. I would wake from the dreams bewildered at the ease with which my brain, when asleep, could produce in me a tangle of sensations I could never enjoy while conscious.

Rhody...
 
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  • #104


I call hogwash. The only way an EEG can show no brain activity is if you're brain dead, you don't have the EEG hooked up correctly, you're faking the EEG reading, or you're only showing part of the EEG.

And of course, the wikipedia article says:
Wilber describes the current state of the "hard" sciences as limited to "narrow science", which only allows evidence from the lowest realm of consciousness, the sensorimotor (the five senses and their extensions). What he calls "broad science" would include evidence from logic, mathematics, and from the symbolic, hermeneutical, and other realms of consciousness.
If that's true he really has no idea what science is. Science is "narrow" because it only deals with what can be repeatedly observed and proven? What a moron.
 
  • #105


Zooby,

Have you ever heard of someone having a synesthestic experience only while dreaming and not awake as in the case of Sadie White listed above ? That was a first for me, which is the reason that I mentioned it.

Rhody...
 
  • #106


StarkRG said:
I call hogwash. The only way an EEG can show no brain activity is if you're brain dead, you don't have the EEG hooked up correctly, you're faking the EEG reading, or you're only showing part of the EEG.

And of course, the wikipedia article says:

If that's true he really has no idea what science is. Science is "narrow" because it only deals with what can be repeatedly observed and proven? What a moron.

StarkRG,

I agree, repeatability in the eyes of independent testers using their own independent calibrated equipment is the only true method of proof. Nonetheless, his testimony in the other video about the mingling of the senses is in agreement with Cytowic's observation in those who have meditated for more than 20 years.

Ken Wilbur may not be aware of Cytowic's work in the field of synesthesia, and he is describing the mingling of the senses from his own perspective, albeit not a truly scientifically based one. If Wilbur was aware of synesthesia and Cytowic's work, one would think that credit would be given where credit is due.

Rhody...
 
  • #107


rhody said:
Zooby,

Have you ever heard of someone having a synesthestic experience only while dreaming and not awake as in the case of Sadie White listed above ? That was a first for me, which is the reason that I mentioned it.

Rhody...

No, Rhody, I haven't seen anything like that mentioned anywhere.
 
  • #108


True synesthesia, as I understand it isn't something you can learn or train yourself to do. It's not something you can achieve through meditation. It's unregulated (or misregulated) crosstalk between the hemispheres. And it's not something that can go away when you're done meditating, it's a physical malformation of the brain.

I say "malformation" in the sense that it's not a "normal" formation. Being able to see UV light (something which is entirely possible) is due to a malformation in the eye, the lens filters out UV light, remove or replace it and you'll be able to see UV light (also burn your retinas faster).
 
  • #109


rhody said:
Zooby,

Have you ever heard of someone having a synesthestic experience only while dreaming and not awake as in the case of Sadie White listed above ? That was a first for me, which is the reason that I mentioned it.

Rhody...

I'm not sure this would be classified as synesthesia, while dreaming synesthetic crosstalk is normal. In fact, it's your brain that's generating the experience so not only is synesthetic experiences during dreaming possible, it might even be extremely common.

While dreaming you know things that you, the character in your dream, should not know. I can remember several times when I had premonitions of the dream world while dreaming. I knew the contents of a box before it was opened, that kind of thing. That doesn't mean it was an actual premonition.

People say that you dream in black and white and only add color later when you remember it. I'm not sure this is true as I remember dreams where the color of an object or situation was important to what it was that was going on. If it is true it's possible that I knew the color of an object despite not seeing a color, it just had the idea/sensation/aura of the color.
 
  • #110


Hmm, on second thought, I suppose it might be possible to achieve synesthesia through meditation since, as I understand it, an LSD trip can have similar effects. However a study would need to be done to figure out if it's the same effect and, if it is, whether the same part of the brain is at work.
 
  • #111


StarkRG said:
True synesthesia, as I understand it isn't something you can learn or train yourself to do. It's not something you can achieve through meditation. It's unregulated (or misregulated) crosstalk between the hemispheres. And it's not something that can go away when you're done meditating, it's a physical malformation of the brain.

I say "malformation" in the sense that it's not a "normal" formation. Being able to see UV light (something which is entirely possible) is due to a malformation in the eye, the lens filters out UV light, remove or replace it and you'll be able to see UV light (also burn your retinas faster).
The connection between synesthesia and seeing "auras" was made by Richard Cytowic, M.D. and is discussed in his book Wednesday Is Indigo Blue. On close investigation of the people reporting to see auras he determined that they are involuntary visualizations of the viewer's emotional reaction to the person viewed. They become more "colored" and elaborate the better the viewer knows the viewed. The "auras" of total strangers are usually colorless.

If you're interested in the subject you ought to read this book. It has the most up-to-date information and hypotheses about it. Synesthesia research is very new, relatively speaking, and ideas about it are in constant flux.

There is probably no "location" of synesthesia: it seems to be the result of processes that take place throughout the brain. No two people with two different forms of it will have the same brain scan indicators.

This is anecdotal, but meditating did, indeed, result in my seeing an "aura" once. The woman it appeared around was, indeed, a total stranger, and the aura was, indeed, colorless. I didn't keep up with the meditating and it never happened again.

Meditation is tricky. When I learned TM in high school they went around and asked everyone in the class if they had any history of mental illness in their family. It's just like hallucinogens in that respect: if you have any proclivity toward mental illness, meditating can exacerbate it. There are stories of zen neophytes who have a lot of unpleasant hallucinations while sitting. I didn't ready Rhody's link, but 25 years of unsupervised meditation could well result in someone who's a sort of empiracle crackpot, who interprets idiosynchratic synesthetic experiences as visions of a "larger reality" the "uninitiated" cannot see.
 
  • #112


zoobyshoe said:
Meditation is tricky. When I learned TM in high school they went around and asked everyone in the class if they had any history of mental illness in their family. It's just like hallucinogens in that respect: if you have any proclivity toward mental illness, meditating can exacerbate it. There are stories of zen neophytes who have a lot of unpleasant hallucinations while sitting. I didn't ready Rhody's link, but 25 years of unsupervised meditation could well result in someone who's a sort of empiracle crackpot, who interprets idiosynchratic synesthetic experiences as visions of a "larger reality" the "uninitiated" cannot see.

Zooby,

That's what I was thinking as I watched Ken's video I mentioned in my post, once he said, "you can actually taste the sky in that sense", definitely a synesthetic connection, he goes on to say how viewing a mountain, he can actually touch it, was sufficient evidence for me to validate Cytowics view that decades meditation can bring on the experiences of synesthesia. I stopped watching the video after that.

Ken Wilbur uses his experience to "peddle his world view to his audience" which I didn't care for. Like I said in a previous post, I doubt that he knows the definition of synesthesia, or of Dr Cytowic either for that matter. If he did, I wonder if he would acknowledge it was synesthesia, I doubt it. Let's just say Ken Wilbur's experience provides unwitting testimony to developing multi-modal synesthesia after decades of meditation and leave it at that.

Rhody...
 
  • #113


zoobyshoe said:
The connection between synesthesia and seeing "auras" was made by Richard Cytowic, M.D. and is discussed in his book Wednesday Is Indigo Blue. On close investigation of the people reporting to see auras he determined that they are involuntary visualizations of the viewer's emotional reaction to the person viewed. They become more "colored" and elaborate the better the viewer knows the viewed. The "auras" of total strangers are usually colorless.

If you're interested in the subject you ought to read this book. It has the most up-to-date information and hypotheses about it. Synesthesia research is very new, relatively speaking, and ideas about it are in constant flux.

There is probably no "location" of synesthesia: it seems to be the result of processes that take place throughout the brain. No two people with two different forms of it will have the same brain scan indicators.

This is anecdotal, but meditating did, indeed, result in my seeing an "aura" once. The woman it appeared around was, indeed, a total stranger, and the aura was, indeed, colorless. I didn't keep up with the meditating and it never happened again.

Meditation is tricky. When I learned TM in high school they went around and asked everyone in the class if they had any history of mental illness in their family. It's just like hallucinogens in that respect: if you have any proclivity toward mental illness, meditating can exacerbate it. There are stories of zen neophytes who have a lot of unpleasant hallucinations while sitting. I didn't ready Rhody's link, but 25 years of unsupervised meditation could well result in someone who's a sort of empiracle crackpot, who interprets idiosynchratic synesthetic experiences as visions of a "larger reality" the "uninitiated" cannot see.

Just to be clear you mean Aura as in "appearance of energy or colour around/associated with an individual"? not Aura as a result of CSD preceding a migraine? The kind of aura you seem to be describing is not hard to imagine as a result of changes in chemistry due to calming and focusing of meditation, or suggestion (auto or induced). Stare at ceiling tiles long enough without blinking and you'll see some funny things, but that's far from synesthesia.
 
  • #114


Framedragger,

Glad to see you back...some of your posts were really funny, not all in this thread of course. In any event, the discovery/description/discussion/validation of synesthesia with scientific experiment continues. I am certain this thread will grow to contain valuable insight and consensus over time. IMHO, there is still great mystery in how the brain functions with and without stimulation, I am glad to be along for the ride.

Rhody...
 
  • #115


rhody said:
Framedragger,

Glad to see you back...some of your posts were really funny, not all in this thread of course. In any event, the discovery/description/discussion/validation of synesthesia with scientific experiment continues. I am certain this thread will grow to contain valuable insight and consensus over time. IMHO, there is still great mystery in how the brain functions with and without stimulation, I am glad to be along for the ride.

Rhody...

Thanks Rhody, the warm welcome back is appreciated. :smile: I have to say, the more I learn about the brain the less I understand. So much of it seemed to be localized, then diffuse, now it's a combination of the two. *boggle* Truly it's a marvelous organ and this disucssion in particular highlights both its plasticity, and as you say, the nature of what "triggers" a thought, or not.
 
  • #116


StarkRG said:
Hmm, on second thought, I suppose it might be possible to achieve synesthesia through meditation since, as I understand it, an LSD trip can have similar effects. However a study would need to be done to figure out if it's the same effect and, if it is, whether the same part of the brain is at work.

Hopefully I'm able to link again, so I'll link this, again, as it involves induced synaesthesia.

"Induced Cross-Modal Synaesthetic Experience Without Abnormal Neuronal Connections",
Cohen Kadosh et al.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...Te7rg2&sig=AHIEtbQFkjZfQLq5-aUnEZbn9oSbT62Dyw
 
  • #117


Thought this may be of interest: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/126745.php" Hypnosis Can Induce 'Synesthetic' Experiences - Where 1 Sense Triggers The Involuntary Use Of Another - Within An Average Brain

They show synesthesia can be induced using post hypnotic suggestion.

excerpt:
To explore the alternative theory of more cross talk (disinhibition) between brain areas in synesthetes, Cohen Kadosh and colleagues used posthypnotic suggestion to show that people who are not synesthetes can be induced to have synesthetic experiences.
After inducing digit-color synesthesia, the volunteers reported similar experiences to those undergone by real synesthetes in their everyday life. For example, one participant described her experience while under posthypnotic suggestion as "When I'm walking on the street, the car registration numbers, if those numbers are on the registration, I see them in those colors." Moreover, hypnotized participants failed a catch test which was also failed by real synesthetes: when subjects were hypnotized to experience seven as red (for example) they could not detect the number when a black seven was presented on a red background.
Cohen Kadosh explains: "Our study shows that hypnosis can induce synesthetic experiences in people, suggesting that extra brain connections are not needed to experience cross-sensory interactions and that it is a change in inhibitory processes - more cross talk within the brain - that causes these experiences. This takes us one step closer to understanding the causes of synesthesia and abnormal cross-brain interactions."
It seems that there are more and more ways to induce synesthesia, this report appears reputable from a legitimate medical source, see below:
The research project was funded by a Marie Curie Intra-European Fellowship; the Royal Society; Israel Science Foundation; Junta de Andalucía and the Spanish Ministry of Education and Science, and the Spanish Ministry of Science and Innovation and Fundación Séneca.

Video of the interview can be seen http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=pS7RHD3rXtA"

Edit: The link wasn't working so I fixed it and watched the short video. You will have to deal with subtitles, it is conducted in a foreign language, since it was done in Israel, I assume it is Hebrew. If you fast forward the video to 1:25 you will hear the interviewed subject, Mary Carmen respond to the following question. Response is taken directly from the link above, and quoted below:
To explore the alternative theory of more cross talk (disinhibition) between brain areas in synesthetes, Cohen Kadosh and colleagues used posthypnotic suggestion to show that people who are not synesthetes can be induced to have synesthetic experiences.

After inducing digit-color synesthesia, the volunteers reported similar experiences to those undergone by real synesthetes in their everyday life. For example, one participant described her experience while under posthypnotic suggestion as "When I'm walking on the street, the car registration numbers, if those numbers are on the registration, I see them in those colors." Moreover, hypnotized participants failed a catch test which was also failed by real synesthetes: when subjects were hypnotized to experience seven as red (for example) they could not detect the number when a black seven was presented on a red background.
Cohen Kadosh explains: "Our study shows that hypnosis can induce synesthetic experiences in people, suggesting that extra brain connections are not needed to experience cross-sensory interactions and that it is a change in inhibitory processes - more cross talk within the brain - that causes these experiences. This takes us one step closer to understanding the causes of synesthesia and abnormal cross-brain interactions."

After thinking about this for a bit, no mention, credit or challenge was made to Dr Cytowic's view of synesthesia. This seems to contradict his research, which says that there are differences in the makeup of the brain which accounts for the condition. Am I missing something here ? I hope not. Read the article and see if you agree or disagree with me.
Rhody...
 
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  • #118


Frame Dragger said:
Just to be clear you mean Aura as in "appearance of energy or colour around/associated with an individual"? not Aura as a result of CSD preceding a migraine? The kind of aura you seem to be describing is not hard to imagine as a result of changes in chemistry due to calming and focusing of meditation, or suggestion (auto or induced). Stare at ceiling tiles long enough without blinking and you'll see some funny things, but that's far from synesthesia.
What I saw was a colorless sphere around a woman. She was inside it, and carried it with her as she walked across a city street toward me. It was dusk, which made the sphere easier to see. It gave the impression of being slightly incandescent or glowing, and I suppose it would have been harder to see, or even invisible, against a well lit bright background. No one else on the street had a sphere, just this one woman.

I would call this experience 100% vivid. The "aura" looked "real": out there around her, and perceived 100% with the eyes. It wasn't a "feeling" or a mere association.

At the same time it was clear that the "aura" was insubstantial: I knew if I tried to touch it I would feel nothing at all, the same way that you know you won't feel anything if you try to touch a beam of light illuminating dust particles in the air.

The woman was very striking: blonde, tallish, very attractive, dressed up in a business outfit with a skirt. I noticed her across the street waiting for the light even before she'd started to cross. After the light changed and she started to cross, the "aura" appeared. Then, about halfway across, she noticed me staring at her and smiled. What crossed my mind was that I could see her aura and no one elses because she must have had the strongest one of anyone on the street. The "aura" meant: excellent health and excellent mood. In other words, it was, indeed, a kind of visual translation of my emotional reaction to her, just as Cytowic reports.
 
  • #119


rhody said:
Zooby,

That's what I was thinking as I watched Ken's video I mentioned in my post, once he said, "you can actually taste the sky in that sense", definitely a synesthetic connection, he goes on to say how viewing a mountain, he can actually touch it, was sufficient evidence for me to validate Cytowics view that decades meditation can bring on the experiences of synesthesia. I stopped watching the video after that.

Ken Wilbur uses his experience to "peddle his world view to his audience" which I didn't care for. Like I said in a previous post, I doubt that he knows the definition of synesthesia, or of Dr Cytowic either for that matter. If he did, I wonder if he would acknowledge it was synesthesia, I doubt it. Let's just say Ken Wilbur's experience provides unwitting testimony to developing multi-modal synesthesia after decades of meditation and leave it at that.

Rhody...
There's always a problem, according to Cytowic, with people adding unwarranted interpretations to what they experience when describing it. Kluver had a hard time with his mescaline subjects because they would say things like "I'm seeing the cosmic eye of the universe!" He had to train them to simply report the plain geometrical properties of the patterns they saw, and separate those properties from their emotional interpretation of them.
 
  • #120


rhody said:
this report appears reputable from a legitimate medical source

I think it may be referring to the paper linked in post no. 116 which is in PubMed, etc.
 

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