Medical Synesthesia, some people perceive individual symbols, characters, numbers

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Synesthesia is a fascinating neurological phenomenon where individuals perceive letters, numbers, and symbols as having distinct colors or sensory attributes. Many artists and creative individuals, including notable figures like Richard Feynman, report experiencing this condition, which can enhance their creative processes. Personal accounts highlight that synesthesia is not necessarily a disability; rather, it can provide unique insights and advantages in perception and memory. The discussion includes references to literature, such as "The Man Who Tasted Shapes" by Richard Cytowic, which explores various forms of synesthesia and their implications. Overall, synesthesia offers a compelling glimpse into the complexities of human perception and cognition.
  • #121


I wanted to see if I could find any examples of synesthetes who experience colored pain. I found this: http://www.psychology.sbc.edu/ramsey.htm"

excerpt:
Feeling pain in color is another sensation which synesthetes experience. One synesthete had an accident where she tore a ligament. At the moment of the accident, her experience was that everything became orange and she felt as if she were wearing orange sunglasses. After another incident where she stubbed her toe, she yelled out in pain but all she could initially say to her husband was the word orange (Hornik, 2001). Synesthetes may see blobs, spirals, cross-hatching, and/or moving lines but color and geometric shapes are most described. They may also taste salty or metallic tastes and feel cold, prickly and/or rough textures (Cytowic, 1989).

While investigating pain synesthesia I stumbled across this: mirror touch synesthesia: http://health.howstuffworks.com/synesthesia.htm"

excerpts:
Perhaps you've seen someone bump their head or stub a toe and thought, "That had to hurt." Well, for some people, watching such an event actually does hurt. An unknown number of people have mirror-touch synesthesia, a condition that causes them to feel the touches that they see others receive. For example, if a mirror-touch synesthete sees someone touched on the cheek, she will feel as if her own cheek has been touched.

Like the name implies, there is a mirror effect involved. Say a mirror-touch synesthete is standing opposite someone. If the non-synesthete is hit in the right arm, the synesthete will feel it in her left arm. If the two are standing next to each other, contact with the non-synesthete's right arm will be felt in the synesthete's right arm.

Besides feeling the pain and touches of others, mirror-touch synesthetes often are very in touch with the feelings of others. Many claim no understanding of how people can laugh at others' misfortune, and action and horror movies are too unbearable to watch.
and
Recent studies have shed more light on the phenomenon, including one published in the June 2007 issue of the journal "Nature Neuroscience." The study, performed by UCL researchers Jamie Ward and Michael Banissy, used brain scans, touch tests and questionnaires to detect mirror-touch synesthesia in 10 subjects. Brain scans showed hyperactivity in certain areas of the brain when mirror-touch synesthetes saw someone being touched. In touch tests, supposed mirror-touch synesthetes more often mistook observed touch for having the touch applied to themselves.

Further research about mirror-touch synesthesia could lead to discoveries about other empathy-related conditions such as schizophrenia, Asperger's syndrome and autism. For example, one symptom of autism is difficulty understanding the emotions of others. Learning why some people are highly sensitive to others' emotions could teach us more about those who aren't.
Another http://www.livescience.com/health/070617_touching_faces.html" on mirror touch synesthesia:

excerpt that summarizes it:
Banissy told LiveScience that "when we observe another person being touched, we all activate areas of our brain similar to those activated when we are physically touched." In mirror-touch synesthetes, this mirror system is overactive. The resulting high level of empathy they demonstrate supports the notion that people learn to empathize by putting themselves in someone else's shoes.

"It is extraordinary to think that some people experience touch on their own body when they merely watch someone else being stroked or punched. However, this may be an exaggeration of a brain mechanism that we all possesses to some degree," Ward said.

Edit: 05/13/10 10:38am
The phrase: "mirror touch synesthesia" was named by http://www.firepile.com/robin/?p=112" another link validating what was stated above. Funny, they didn't mention Michael Banissy, I just figured out why, Banissy is a student of Jamie Ward.

By now, you all must know what my next question will be, don't you, hehe. Does anyone following this thread have colored pain synesthesia, or mirror touch synesthesia ?
Please feel free to come out of the closet, we are all curious, interested, kind souls (well, so far at least).

Rhody...:wink:

P.S. zooby, in your continued reading, does Cytowic mention mirror touch ?
 
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  • #122


It's not listed in the indexes of either of the books I have.

That's an amazing find, Rhody. I've never heard of this either and it's beyond fascinating. I have been thinking about the proposed existence of mirror neurons ever since I heard about them and this dovetails right in with that field of inquiry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron

It raises questions, though. Are these people really synesthetes, or just highly suggestible due to an excess of empathy? Are there really dedicated "mirror neurons" or is a high level of identification with a person outside yourself just a matter of where your attention gets fixed?
 
  • #123


Wow, there is a pain synesthesia, and a mirror synesthesia? That's pretty cool.
 
  • #124


zoobyshoe said:
It's not listed in the indexes of either of the books I have.

That's an amazing find, Rhody. I've never heard of this either and it's beyond fascinating. I have been thinking about the proposed existence of mirror neurons ever since I heard about them and this dovetails right in with that field of inquiry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron

It raises questions, though. Are these people really synesthetes, or just highly suggestible due to an excess of empathy? Are there really dedicated "mirror neurons" or is a high level of identification with a person outside yourself just a matter of where your attention gets fixed?

zooby,

I am thinking beyond that, say you could perform a blind study where the person who has the ability to detect how another individual was feeling in tactile range then proved it in the normal sensing area of the five senses as a baseline test. The mirror neuron sensitive individual proved with good accuracy that they could detect another's touch, feelings, etc...

Then, the person without mirror neuron sensitivity would be removed from the room, away from every sense that the person with the mirror neuron's could detect , and if they still could (with accuracy) sense what the other individual was feeling, touching, what would be a valid explanation ? weak electromagnetic energy (we all give off http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biophoton" ).

If the sensitive individual were able to accurately detect this energy through a non-blocking weak electromagnetic curtain of some type, then science would again have to look hard at the brain's amazing sensing capabilities. I would love to see such an experiment conducted, and wouldn't be a bit surprised if the outcome after many variations of using different walls that increasingly limit the weak electromagnetic energy (to the point of complete blocking of all weak EMF) the results would be positive, as long as some weak EMF made it through the partition. That would truly be astounding and groundbreaking as well.


Rhody...
 
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  • #125


waht said:
Wow, there is a pain synesthesia, and a mirror synesthesia? That's pretty cool.

waht,

Take a look at my updated post #102, all the known types except for the mirror type that I just mentioned are listed there, with percentages of how often they occur in a group of 365 people known to have some form of synesthesia.

Rhody...
 
  • #126


rhody said:
waht,

Take a look at my updated post #102, all the known types except for the mirror type that I just mentioned are listed there, with percentages of how often they occur in a group of 365 people known to have some form of synesthesia.

Rhody...

I did now, thanks. I'll have to catch up with the rest of page 7. A thought occurred to me that it would be cool if Cytowic was lurking in this thread, and in the number form one.
 
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  • #127


waht said:
I did now, thanks. I'll have to catch up with the rest of page 7. A thought occurred to me that it would be cool if Cytowic was lurking in this thread, and in the number form one.

waht,

I doubt it but, :smile: :eek: :smile:

Rhody...
 
  • #128


Ok, yesterdays find was surprising, but today you are in for another shock, are you ready...
take a deep breath, it turns out there is something known as: http://www.seeingwithsound.com/asynesth.htm" .
It is also referred to as: "virtual synesthesia or synthetic synesthesia"

I was hoping by now to have delved deep enough in this subject to reach the "bottom" of it. I was wrong, and am continued to be proved wrong as time progresses and my queries expand. Simply amazing is all that I have to say... amazing... I have beat the phrase: "Holy Crap" to death, so it has little meaning to me anymore, lol.

excerpt:
Artificial synesthesia (syn = together, and aisthesis = perception in Greek) is a deliberately evoked or induced sensory joining in which the real information of one sense is accompanied by a perception in another sense through the use of a cross-modal mapping device. It is also known as virtual synesthesia or synthetic synesthesia. The additional perception is regarded by the trained synesthete as real, often outside the body, instead of imagined in the mind's eye. Its reality and vividness are what makes artificial synesthesia so interesting in its violation of conventional perception. Synesthesia in general is also fascinating because logically it should have been a product of the human brain, where the evolutionary trend has been for increasing coordination, mutual consistency and perceptual robustness in the processing of different sensory inputs.

and
However, a main drive for investigating artificial synesthesia (and cross-modal neuromodulation) is formed by the options it may provide for people with sensory disabilities like deafness and blindness, where a neural joining of senses can help in replacing one sense by the other: e.g., in seeing with your ears when using a device that maps images into sounds, or in hearing with your eyes when using a device that maps sounds into images. The former synesthetic vision is the main focus of this site.

Rhody...
 
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  • #129


rhody said:
I am thinking beyond that, say you could perform a blind study where the person who has the ability to detect how another individual was feeling in tactile range then proved it in the normal sensing area of the five senses as a baseline test.
I'm not following this. You need to flesh it out and be specific for me. What are you testing for and what is the baseline you want to establish?
 
  • #130


Zooby,

I will get to your question, but wanted to post a small video on "artificial synesthesia" first, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_iB...CAC2FD6&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=15". The Video and Audio are generated from the same mathematical equation. Like synesthesia, the video makes the sound, and the sound makes the video. If you fast forward to 1:14 you will note a step away view, and it seems the tone, tempo, cadence, and frequency are limited by the algorithm. To me it sounds sinusoidal, and the patterns displayed remind me of a hurricane or black hole feasting, with a bit of gravitational lensing thrown in for good measure.

Chi, any comment on the patterns ?

Now, on to part deux, I know french isn't allowed here but I couldn't help myself, hehe. From order of events step by step:

1. Conduct a scientific study, with a synesthete, a confirmed mirror touch synesthete, and a normal control individual who has been pretested and shows no signs of either ability to determine and range, accuracy, and testable limits on touch sense sending and receiving.

2. Determine and connection between the synesthete and mirror touch synesthete, documenting the the touch response through interview and data gathered through fMRI imaging. Use the interview testimony and the fMRI results as baseline. Note, the sensitivty to types of touch, gentle, using cold objects, heat, etc... basically the works to see if any types of synesthetic touch are not transmitted, or if others are less intensely or more intensely felt by the mirror touch recepient.

3. Test in step 2 conducted in full five sensory range of the synesthete and the mirror touch synesthete. All senses are perceived by the sender and receiver as they would normally be in the same room, with results fMRI being recorded, post test interview of both subjects conducted.

4. The same battery of tests is repeated, this time the receiver (mirror touch synesthete) is in another room, in an isolated sound and EMFfree enclosure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage" ). One would expect the mirror touch synesthete would not pick up any sensation at all due to it being a anechoic (sound isolated), and EMF room.

5. Repeat the same series of tests a third time, but this time remove the two subjects from all sensory range, without the farraday cage. Mix the stimulation of the senses transmitted by the sending synesthete and mirror touch synesthete so that the receiver cannot anticipate what touch sensation is being applied and when it happens. Run the tests and record the results. I would not shocked to learn that there is still some sensation perceived on the part of the mirror touch test synesthete.

6. Repeat all tests above, but use a control individual in place of the mirror touch recipient synesthete. Record the results.

7. The fact that seemingly normal individuals experience sickness, tingling, etc, make me wonder out loud in this case, if they are unwitting receivers if you will of EMF energy that in this case while not biological still could qualify them as synesthetes, and further gives me a warm fuzzy feeling that mirror touch synesthesia can in fact be experienced some distance away from sight, smell, taste, hearing, and touch proximity of the person giving off the touch sensation.

Zooby, does this clarify what tests I would like to see performed to verify or dispute the claim of reception of a mirror touch sensation by two people ?

Rhody...

http://www.lessemf.com/emf-news.html#links"
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23375600-wireless-technology-made-me-sick.do"

excerpt:
Ms Figes said: "The day we installed wi-fi two years ago was the day I started to feel ill. At first I could not work out what the problem was. I had no idea why I felt so sick and run-down. But I knew that when I walked through the front door it felt like walking into a cloud of poison.

"Imagine being prodded all over your body by 1,000 fingers. That is what I felt when I walked into the house... Then I started to think it might be the wi-fi, so we scrapped it - and I felt better."
 
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  • #131


Rhody, I'm not sure you understood the mirror-touch synesthesia phenomenon. The person with mirror-touch synesthesia feels the sensation of being touched when they see someone else being touched. They have to see it. It works even if they are watching a movie of someone being touched. If they see someone being hurt in a movie they feel physical pain. This is the reason they can't watch violent movies: the sight of violence causes them to feel physical sensations of pain.

This is clearly a concept-> sensation kind of synesthesia, in the same way grapheme -> color synesthesia is. The sight of the grapheme induces the concept of the grapheme, which then induces the involuntary color association, projected or unprojected.

What's of note is that the actor in the film that bothers the mirror synesthete never feels any authentic pain: they are acting, and the blood is a special effect. The mirror synesthete, therefore, is always merely reacting to the concept.

It is highly likely the "WiFi sensitive" people are also just reacting to the concept of WiFi. They have gotten the meme in their head somehow that it is bad for people so they experience unpleasant physical sensations when they believe WiFi is on in their immediate vicinity.

Quite a few people responded to the story you linked to, claiming they, too, were made sick by WiFi. This means there are plenty of test subjects out there who could be tested in various ways to see if they only get sick when WiFi is really on, or if they only get sick when they think it is on.
 
  • #132


zoobyshoe said:
Rhody, I'm not sure you understood the mirror-touch synesthesia phenomenon. The person with mirror-touch synesthesia feels the sensation of being touched when they see someone else being touched. They have to see it. It works even if they are watching a movie of someone being touched. If they see someone being hurt in a movie they feel physical pain. This is the reason they can't watch violent movies: the sight of violence causes them to feel physical sensations of pain.

What's of note is that the actor in the film that bothers the mirror synesthete never feels any authentic pain: they are acting, and the blood is a special effect. The mirror synesthete, therefore, is always merely reacting to the concept.

zooby,

Yes, I understand the mirror-touch phenomenon as it is defined. I was trying to take it a step further by removing the subject who experiences anothers pain's five senses to see if there is still some form of sensing (electromagnetically going on).

I had an interesting conversation over dinner with a friend who had two incidents in which he felt pain without being the one it was being inflicted upon. When his daughter was young he was taking her to school and accidentally closed her fingers in the car door, he said at the last moment he sensed her fingers were there and did not slam the door shut. He claims that he felt the pain as she screamed and as one would imagine felt guilty about it. A second incident occurred years before while playing soccer with his brother (not a twin, or identical twin BTW). He got kicked in his nether parts and dropped like a rock, and again he claims he felt his brother's pain, physical sympathetic (synesthetic) pain. My friend to the best of my knowledge is not synesthetic in any other way, we discussed the five senses and he said he didn't think he had it as part of his normal day to day activities.

It is highly likely the "WiFi sensitive" people are also just reacting to the concept of WiFi. They have gotten the meme in their head somehow that it is bad for people so they experience unpleasant physical sensations when they believe WiFi is on in their immediate vicinity.

Quite a few people responded to the story you linked to, claiming they, too, were made sick by WiFi. This means there are plenty of test subjects out there who could be tested in various ways to see if they only get sick when WiFi is really on, or if they only get sick when they think it is on.

On this subject I agree with you, I think that a rigorous scientific test is required to settle the issue, with the people who claim to be affected being told there was Wifi present (when in fact there wasn't), and vice versa, along with different brands of routers and frequency ranges to separate fact from fiction, and use fMRI to record other types of the brain's reaction to induced pain responses to establish a baseline before applying the Wifi signal, then recording the brain's real or lack of pain response.

Another issue I have with Wifi myself is that the frequency, amplitude and power of the signal has to be much higher than say a slower, Alpha - Delta range and much much weaker than the body is capable of producing when a person who experiences pain which would disqualify it from being the mirror touch type, unless of course there is another type of synesthesia lurking in the shadows. We can call this one, EMFIS, electromagnetic frequency induced synesthesia, lol.

Rhody...
 
  • #133


The question I have, as I mentioned before, is whether this mirror-touch phenomenon is really synesthesia at all. The word "psychosomatic" comes to mind. Psychosomatic symptoms have been recognized as real and troublesome for quite some time: when a person is convinced they are sick they will experience all the appropriate aches and pains, even when they have none of the germs, or injuries, that actually cause the particular illness.

I am prone to this, myself, in a small way. I may feel perfectly warm, but if someone I'm with complains that they feel cold, I will start to "notice" how cold it actually is, start to feel uncomfortable, and want to go inside. I may even shiver. Before they said anything, I was fine. At the same time I am aware they have essentially "hypnotized" me into feeling cold when I was perfectly fine, I am still now cold. It's a kind of putting myself in their shoes: If I want to hang out with them, I have to be sensitive to their discomforts and react accordingly. To allow myself to stay warm would be a kind of anti-social act. Feeling cold myself helps us to stay on the same page. (Course, there's a limit.)

Additionally, once in a great while, if a particularly "painful' thought occurs to me suddenly, I will experience it as a sharp sudden pain in my body. When this happens I am perfectly aware it's psychosomatic, but it hurts anyway. The pain sensation is very real. I think under the wrong circumstances I could be induced to psychosomatically feel a pain in my own body by the sight of someone elses pain. (It's a thing to be resisted, though, since the non-injured person has to be able to calmly and competently give, or call for, medical help.)

I think your friend's stories are reports of the same thing: empathetic physical sensation of pain in response to someone elses' injury that he became aware of through perfectly ordinary means. In his case the extreme empathy seems limited to close relatives, which sounds pretty normal. The "mirror-touch" synesthete is rather more promiscuous with their empathetic reactions.

So, the important question in my mind, in reaction to this "Mirror-Touch Synesthesia" phenomenon, is where they are going to draw the line between synesthesia and psychosomatic reactions. Maybe the question is whether there is a line, whether all syesthesia isn't caused by the same mechanism that causes psychosomatic reactions: the taste of properly spiced chicken psychosomatically inducing the feeling of points, and so forth.

Your test is about something else: you're looking for a form of communication that works through walls and at a distance. That's an interesting subject, but I don't see that it is even suggested by any of these cases. The WiFi people haven't claimed to react to anything but prolonged exposure to known installations.
 
  • #134


rhody said:
zooby,

Yes, I understand the mirror-touch phenomenon as it is defined. I was trying to take it a step further by removing the subject who experiences anothers pain's five senses to see if there is still some form of sensing (electromagnetically going on).

I had an interesting conversation over dinner with a friend who had two incidents in which he felt pain without being the one it was being inflicted upon. When his daughter was young he was taking her to school and accidentally closed her fingers in the car door, he said at the last moment he sensed her fingers were there and did not slam the door shut. He claims that he felt the pain as she screamed and as one would imagine felt guilty about it. A second incident occurred years before while playing soccer with his brother (not a twin, or identical twin BTW). He got kicked in his nether parts and dropped like a rock, and again he claims he felt his brother's pain, physical sympathetic (synesthetic) pain. My friend to the best of my knowledge is not synesthetic in any other way, we discussed the five senses and he said he didn't think he had it as part of his normal day to day activities.



On this subject I agree with you, I think that a rigorous scientific test is required to settle the issue, with the people who claim to be affected being told there was Wifi present (when in fact there wasn't), and vice versa, along with different brands of routers and frequency ranges to separate fact from fiction, and use fMRI to record other types of the brain's reaction to induced pain responses to establish a baseline before applying the Wifi signal, then recording the brain's real or lack of pain response.

Another issue I have with Wifi myself is that the frequency, amplitude and power of the signal has to be much higher than say a slower, Alpha - Delta range and much much weaker than the body is capable of producing when a person who experiences pain which would disqualify it from being the mirror touch type, unless of course there is another type of synesthesia lurking in the shadows. We can call this one, EMFIS, electromagnetic frequency induced synesthesia, lol.

Rhody...

How an event unfolds, and how we remember it or internally "explain it" is often inconsistent. This is interesting, but impossible to really confirm with anecdotes or TCMS.
 
  • #135


zoobyshoe said:
The question I have, as I mentioned before, is whether this mirror-touch phenomenon is really synesthesia at all. The word "psychosomatic" comes to mind. Psychosomatic symptoms have been recognized as real and troublesome for quite some time: when a person is convinced they are sick they will experience all the appropriate aches and pains, even when they have none of the germs, or injuries, that actually cause the particular illness.

I am prone to this, myself, in a small way. I may feel perfectly warm, but if someone I'm with complains that they feel cold, I will start to "notice" how cold it actually is, start to feel uncomfortable, and want to go inside. I may even shiver. Before they said anything, I was fine. At the same time I am aware they have essentially "hypnotized" me into feeling cold when I was perfectly fine, I am still now cold. It's a kind of putting myself in their shoes: If I want to hang out with them, I have to be sensitive to their discomforts and react accordingly. To allow myself to stay warm would be a kind of anti-social act. Feeling cold myself helps us to stay on the same page. (Course, there's a limit.)

Additionally, once in a great while, if a particularly "painful' thought occurs to me suddenly, I will experience it as a sharp sudden pain in my body. When this happens I am perfectly aware it's psychosomatic, but it hurts anyway. The pain sensation is very real. I think under the wrong circumstances I could be induced to psychosomatically feel a pain in my own body by the sight of someone elses pain. (It's a thing to be resisted, though, since the non-injured person has to be able to calmly and competently give, or call for, medical help.)

I think your friend's stories are reports of the same thing: empathetic physical sensation of pain in response to someone elses' injury that he became aware of through perfectly ordinary means. In his case the extreme empathy seems limited to close relatives, which sounds pretty normal. The "mirror-touch" synesthete is rather more promiscuous with their empathetic reactions.

So, the important question in my mind, in reaction to this "Mirror-Touch Synesthesia" phenomenon, is where they are going to draw the line between synesthesia and psychosomatic reactions. Maybe the question is whether there is a line, whether all syesthesia isn't caused by the same mechanism that causes psychosomatic reactions: the taste of properly spiced chicken psychosomatically inducing the feeling of points, and so forth.

zooby,

Fair enough, you have a valid point, so my question to you is, how would you design a "fair test" designed to discriminate between real mirror touch synesthesia and psychosomatic reactions, briefly of course, what tricks, tests would you suggest ?

This was a quote from my previous post #121, maybe hyperactivity is the brain activity that identifies mirror touch synesthesia:
hyperactivity in certain areas of the brain when mirror-touch synesthetes saw someone being touched

Rhody...
 
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  • #136


IcedEcliptic said:
How an event unfolds, and how we remember it or internally "explain it" is often inconsistent. This is interesting, but impossible to really confirm with anecdotes or TCMS.

Iced,

I haven't tuned in synesthetically to your mode of communication yet, lol, please explain your statement in a more descriptive way, also the "TCMS" acronym.

Rhody...
 
  • #137


rhody said:
Iced,

I haven't tuned in synesthetically to your mode of communication yet, lol, please explain your statement in a more descriptive way, also the "TCMS" acronym.

Rhody...

Heh, ok I understand. First, TCMS = Trans-Cranial Magnetic Stimulation. The rest, I mean to say that when we act in the charge of adrenaline, or on a subliminal clue, we do not necessarily think as we are used to. Pain is FAST, so from his periphery he notes that his child is about to have her fingers slammed, and his reaction is a bit like men watching a vicious shot to the junk; not synesthesia, but immediate and sympathetic pain. Thinking back on the event, the mind constructs a narrative for how and why events unfolded, and each time that memory is recalled and placed back into storage, the mind edits details.
 
  • #138


IcedEcliptic said:
Heh, ok I understand. First, TCMS = Trans-Cranial Magnetic Stimulation. The rest, I mean to say that when we act in the charge of adrenaline, or on a subliminal clue, we do not necessarily think as we are used to. Pain is FAST, so from his periphery he notes that his child is about to have her fingers slammed, and his reaction is a bit like men watching a vicious shot to the junk; not synesthesia, but immediate and sympathetic pain. Thinking back on the event, the mind constructs a narrative for how and why events unfolded, and each time that memory is recalled and placed back into storage, the mind edits details.

Iced,

Thanks for the definition. I pose the same question to you as I did zooby, how would you design a test to see if it was synesthesia versus sympathetic pain ? Feel free to think outside the box.

Rhody...
 
  • #139


rhody said:
Iced,

Thanks for the definition. I pose the same question to you as I did zooby, how would you design a test to see if it was synesthesia versus sympathetic pain ? Feel free to think outside the box.

Rhody...

This requires some thought (and sleep) to answer. I will do so later tomorrow, and ask a colleague for their opinion as well. At first blush, it seems easy, but to make it truly rigorous, complications arise. I do know that I'd want a large sample size, to test people who have young children with videos or images of an injured or unhappy child. I would image this, and compare to activity associated with "from birth" synesthesia. For a real answer with some merit, I must consider this with more depth, and outside of the box, as you say. Thanks for the worthy challenge.
 
  • #140


rhody said:
zooby,

Fair enough, you have a valid point, so my question to you is, how would you design a "fair test" designed to discriminate between real mirror touch synesthesia and psychosomatic reactions, briefly of course, what tricks, tests would you suggest ?

This was a quote from my previous post #121, maybe hyperactivity is the brain activity that identifies mirror touch synesthesia:


Rhody...
It's really a matter of definition, not testing. Psychosomatic pain reactions should produce the same activation of pain areas of the brain as physiologically caused pain. Pain, like color, is created in the brain as it is: it's as real as it feels. As far as I can see, the only reason this "mirror-touch" phenomenon is called "syesthesia" is because it happened to be discovered by a lecturer on synesthesia. Had she been lecturing on psychosomatic phenomena, it would have been a new psychosomatic discovery.
 
  • #141


zooby, and to all following this thread,

I think your question about what qualifies as a true synesthetic experience and what isn't (backed by hard science) begs a deeper question. See posts #74 and #102 for a list of types of known synesthesia. Post #74 appears more comprehensive, up to date and applies to the US.

1. What organization/agency/govt department, etc... is recognized as maintaining the current standards when it comes to recognizing what is and what is not classified as a type of synesthesia in the US ? From post#74, 61 as of March 9, 2009, with Mirror touch listed as ?? and Non-graphemic ord. pers. listed as ??, Ticker-tape?? Note: the last three just mentioned are included in the total, so, 58 official, with 3 listed as ??

2. If there is no officially recognized organization, then what organization (by country) is regarded as a leading authority on the subject, again from http://home.comcast.net/~sean.day/html/conferences.html" in Post #74.
excerpt:
The Board Members of the ASA are pleased to announce the Eighth National Meeting of the American Synesthesia Association, which will take place on October 1 - 3, 2010, at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tenness

3. Since these Organizations are fairly new (by country), 8 years in the case of the US as noted above, are there Conferences held by all countries where research into the study synesthesia is being done, as in the US listed in the example above.

4. Is there movement or discussion for synesthesia to be recognized by a World Wide Organization, the National Institutes of Health (NIST) for example, or some other large organization ?

5. A mature world organization that recognized synesthasia would have to eventually agree on a committee consisting of knowledge experts who would further clarify, add new types, and weed out proposed types that were not "true synesthetic" types, then report disseminate as appropriate updated knowledge to all countries particpating, would they not ?

Rhody...
 
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  • #142


Thanks Rhody, if you meant to point to this definition from your link in post 74. I'll just address that quickly. It is different to any definition I’ve seen before, but still don't think it helps to clarify things as suggested in your points.



Definition of "synesthesia"
Synesthesia is the general name for a related set (a "complex") of various cognitive states. Synesthesia may be divided into two general, somewhat overlapping types. The first, which I sometimes call "synesthesia proper", is as described above, in which stimuli to a sensory input will also trigger sensations in one or more other sensory modes. The second form of synesthesia, called "cognitive" or "category synesthesia", involves synesthetic additions to culture-bound cognitive categorizational systems. In simpler words, with this kind of synesthesia, certain sets of things which our individual cultures teach us to put together and categorize in some specific way – like letters, numbers, or people's names – also get some kind of sensory addition, such as a smell, color or flavor. The most common forms of cognitive synesthesia involve such things as colored written letter characters (graphemes), numbers, time units, and musical notes or keys. For example, the synesthete might see, about a foot or two before her, different colors for different spoken vowel and consonant sounds, or perceive numbers and letters, whether conceptualized or before her in print, as colored. A friend of mine, Deborah, always perceives the letter "a" as pink, "b" as blue, and "c" as green, no matter what color of ink they are printed with.”

The first type, according to this, of synaesthesia involves two or more senses. Does this include music, which may be culturally defined, or chords, too, for example, which could be cultural
http://www.newscientist.com/article...sal-music.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news
(there is quite a bit about this, but this will do for now)?

http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~mnkylab/publications/recent/McDermottHauserMusicOriginsMP.pdf

It excludes number graphemes, for example, because they are learned and cultural, but it may not be about the grapheme as what it represents in a possibly heritable ‘number line’, (Deheane). http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=...23YdQATlvAx2HMjb_J8SRGrS0#v=onepage&q&f=false

“Synesthesia is additive; that is, it adds to the initial (primary) sensory perception, rather than replacing one perceptual mode for another. With my colored musical timbres, I both hear and "see" the sounds; the visual images don't replace the audial sensations. Both sensory perceptions may thus become affected and altered in the ways they function and integrate with other senses. Synesthesia is generally "one-way"; that is, for example, for a given synesthete, tastes may produce synesthetic sounds, but sounds will not produce synesthetic tastes. However, there have been a few rare cases of synesthetes who have had "bi-directional" synesthesia, in which, for example, music induces (synesthetic) colors and seeing colors induces (synesthetic) sounds – the correspondences, however, may not be the same in both directions!”

Fechner’s illusion, for example, http://dogfeathers.com/java/fechner.html
is additive.

Synaesthesia may be ‘bi-directional”, for example,
http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/2934/1/2934.pdf
(edit: I had accidentally said "may not be "bi-directional")

“Regarding synesthesia “proper”, stimuli to one sense, such as smell, are involuntarily simultaneously perceived as if by one or more other senses, such as sight or/and hearing. For example, I myself have three types of synesthesiae: The sounds of musical instruments will sometimes make me see certain colors, about a yard in front of me, each color specific and consistent with the particular instrument playing; a piano, for example, produces a sky-blue cloud in front of me, and a tenor saxophone produces an image of electric purple neon lights. I also have had colored taste and smell sensations; for example, the taste of espresso coffee can make me see a pool of dark green oily fluid about two feet away from me.
The word "synesthesia" comes directly from the Greek (syn-) "union", and (aísthesis) "sensation", thus meaning something akin to "a union of the senses". "Synaesthesia" is the British English spelling of the word; in American English, it is often spelled "synesthesia", without the "a". The concept appears in other European languages, too: In Danish it is synæstesi . The Dutch word is synesthesie . In Finnish, synestesia. In French, it's synesthésie , one type of which is audition colorée , "colored hearing". In German, it's Synästhesie , and colored hearing is Farbenhören. In Italian, sinestetici ; in Polish, synestezja; in Russian, ( sinestezia ); in Swedish, it's synestesi.”

The name suggests the combination of two senses, yet the first paragraph includes both sensory and cultural combinations, and as it states this only applicable to one type.

“Synesthesia has definite neurological components and is apparently partially heritable, one component perhaps passed down genetically on X-chromosomes. The percentage of the general human population which has synesthesia varies with the type involved; estimates run from 4 in 100 for basic types of cognitive synesthesia (colored letters or musical pitches), to 1 in 3,000 for more common forms of synesthesia proper (colored musical sounds or colored taste sensations), to 1 in 15,000 or more for people with rare (such as one synesthete I know of who synesthetically tastes things she touches) or multiple forms of synesthesia proper. Perhaps more than half of all humans have a basic form of synesthesia in which they consider "higher" sounds to be "brighter" and "lower" sounds to be "darker".”

The “definite neurological components” may not include abnormal neuronal connections. (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...EZbn9oSbT62Dyw )

I think the mention of x-chromosomes may be based on the idea from old data that this occurs more often in women, which has since been discounted. Newer information involves a survey held at the Science Museum in London, which I’ll try to find. (Haven't yet, but is backed by Simner 2006.)

The last sentence refers to understanding metaphors, which I believe is a human capacity.
 
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  • #143


rhody said:
I think your question about what qualifies as a true synesthetic experience and what isn't (backed by hard science) begs a deeper question.
That's not really what I was asking, though. I was more pondering the notion whether all synesthesia might not be essentially an extension of what we understand as "psychosomatic" phenomenon:

zoobyshoe said:
Maybe the question is whether there is a line, whether all syesthesia isn't caused by the same mechanism that causes psychosomatic reactions: the taste of properly spiced chicken psychosomatically inducing the feeling of points, and so forth.
 
  • #144


zoobyshoe said:
That's not really what I was asking, though. I was more pondering the notion whether all synesthesia might not be essentially an extension of what we understand as "psychosomatic" phenomenon:

Zooby,

You want to know "whether all synesthesia might not be essentially an extension of what we understand as "psychosomatic" phenomenon". I think there isn't anyone qualified on this forum to give you an expert opinion. We can bat it back and forth like a pinball, but without one, in the end all we are left with is our collective opinion, with which we may or may not collectively agree on, and may be wrong.

If there is someone following this who can give us an expert answer, please speak up and state your credentials while doing so. That's the most rational approach I can think of.

My personal belief is that for the mirror touch form of synesthesia may be due all or in part to a psychosomatic phenomenon, because it generates an emotional response (in most cases). Are you sure you meant to say all synesthesia and not just the mirror touch type ? The most common form, http://home.comcast.net/~sean.day/html/types.htm" I believe would not qualify as a psychosomatic phenomenon, at least not for me.

Rhody...
 
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  • #145


I believe I can clear this up: synesthesia is by definition a neurological phenomenon, not a psychological one. Psychosomatic disorders, by contrast, have their basis in psychology which then makes itself known through physiology. Whether drugs, natural "wiring", or TCMS, synesthesia is based in the brain and its physical workings. To be synesthesia something could not be purely psychosomatic.
 
  • #146


fuzzyfelt said:
Fechner’s illusion, for example, http://dogfeathers.com/java/fechner.html
is additive.

Fuzzyfelt,

I needed to think a little less so I tried the Fechner color illusion test #1.

With the scale at 1/3 staring at the white space between the second and third rows, only the third row took on a yellow/green tinge. When I increased the speed to 1/2 the second row became grayish blue and the third row more vivid yellow. When setting the speed to 2/3, the second and forth rows became a grayish blue. When I went full speed after awhile by looking straight, left, right, up, down I could sense that the speed of movement varied, speeding, up then slowing down again, I attribute this to involuntary eye tracking but can't be sure.

Anyone else care to try this or perhaps test #2 and report what they experienced.
I think this would be an interesting test to try again after having a few shots of Patron some evening, I may just do that for comparison. I notice that when I do drink agave based tequila, I feel more in the moment, more connected, which if I am not mistaken is more associated with functions the prefer the right side of the brain. I don't want this thread to diverge along that thought, I was merely adding a personal observation.

Rhody...
 
  • #147


rhody said:
Zooby,

You want to know "whether all synesthesia might not be essentially an extension of what we understand as "psychosomatic" phenomenon". I think there isn't anyone qualified on this forum to give you an expert opinion. We can bat it back and forth like a pinball, but without one, in the end all we are left with is our collective opinion, with which we may or may not collectively agree on, and may be wrong.
I wasn't raising it as a question that can be settled here, I am saying it is something that all synesthesia researchers should have to consider in light of "mirror touch" synesthesia. It's not something that could be settled by anyone at this point.


My personal belief is that for the mirror touch form of synesthesia may be due all or in part to a psychosomatic phenomenon, because it generates an emotional response (in most cases). Are you sure you meant to say all synesthesia and not just the mirror touch type ? The most common form, http://home.comcast.net/~sean.day/html/types.htm" I believe would not qualify as a psychosomatic phenomenon, at least not for me.
What they share is concept -> sensation. This is conceivably true of all the synesthesias, that the concept of the original and primary sensation is what is triggering the secondary one. This isn't something I would have suspected until it was pointed out about grapheme -> color synesthesia. Any "G", upper or lower case, in any font at all, will produce the color. It is the concept of the grapheme "G", therefore, that triggers the activation of the color area of the brain.

Psychosomatic reactions are the same concept ->sensation reaction.

The same may be the case in all other forms, i.e. that it wasn't directly the taste of food that evoked the sensation of touch in MW, but the immediate concept of that taste that was created along with the taste. This is something that has to be looked into which would be easy not to suspect were it not for the grapheme (concept) -> color connection, and the mirror touch phenomenon.
 
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  • #148


IcedEcliptic said:
I believe I can clear this up: synesthesia is by definition a neurological phenomenon, not a psychological one. Psychosomatic disorders, by contrast, have their basis in psychology which then makes itself known through physiology. Whether drugs, natural "wiring", or TCMS, synesthesia is based in the brain and its physical workings. To be synesthesia something could not be purely psychosomatic.
Anything that happens in your mind is automatically some form of neurological event: it represents neurons firing, at least. There now exist the fields of neuropsychology and neuropsychiatry, which are long overdue recognitions of this fact.

If you talk to people with chronic seizures they'll tell you that the single most common trigger for their seizures is emotional stress. You might find the same claim made by migraine sufferers. There is the danger of someone misinterpreting that to mean these ailments are psychosomatic. In fact, though, the only reason it's possible for them to be psychogenically induced is because the person's neurons are not normal, they are predisposed to fire paroxysmally at a much lower threshold of stimulation.

If psychosomatic reactions are now relegated to "psychology" it is only because no one has sufficiently explored the neurological correlates. It is not possible to feel a pain in your body somewhere without a pain center in your brain becoming active, just as it is not possible to see a color without a color area becoming active. Both can happen without a normal outside stimulus but the subjective experience is just as vivid. A person "prone" to psychosomatic pains might have exactly the same neurological situation as a synesthete, be it unpruned synapses or lack of normal inhibitory functions in a certain "circuit".
 
  • #149


rhody said:
Fuzzyfelt,

I needed to think a little less so I tried the Fechner color illusion test #1.

With the scale at 1/3 staring at the white space between the second and third rows, only the third row took on a yellow/green tinge. When I increased the speed to 1/2 the second row became grayish blue and the third row more vivid yellow. When setting the speed to 2/3, the second and forth rows became a grayish blue. When I went full speed after awhile by looking straight, left, right, up, down I could sense that the speed of movement varied, speeding, up then slowing down again, I attribute this to involuntary eye tracking but can't be sure.

Anyone else care to try this or perhaps test #2 and report what they experienced.
I think this would be an interesting test to try again after having a few shots of Patron some evening, I may just do that for comparison. I notice that when I do drink agave based tequila, I feel more in the moment, more connected, which if I am not mistaken is more associated with functions the prefer the right side of the brain. I don't want this thread to diverge along that thought, I was merely adding a personal observation.

Rhody...

:smile:!

It was really meant as an example of how additional percepts are not unique to synaesthesia, so that addition alone doesn’t constitute a definition, but I like that idea- lick, sip, suck, evoke Fechner’s Colour.

Sans tequila, the second illusion at about half way along gives electric blue and definite yellow, and when going much faster becomes a deep pink tartan with maybe olive green there. I'm sure previously I've seen stripes of different colours. The first illusion has the same colours at a fast pace.

I’ve edited my previous post, post number 142, correcting links and mistakes and adding colour. I hope it is more helpful now.
 
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  • #150


zoobyshoe said:
Anything that happens in your mind is automatically some form of neurological event: it represents neurons firing, at least. There now exist the fields of neuropsychology and neuropsychiatry, which are long overdue recognitions of this fact.

If you talk to people with chronic seizures they'll tell you that the single most common trigger for their seizures is emotional stress. You might find the same claim made by migraine sufferers. There is the danger of someone misinterpreting that to mean these ailments are psychosomatic. In fact, though, the only reason it's possible for them to be psychogenically induced is because the person's neurons are not normal, they are predisposed to fire paroxysmally at a much lower threshold of stimulation.

If psychosomatic reactions are now relegated to "psychology" it is only because no one has sufficiently explored the neurological correlates. It is not possible to feel a pain in your body somewhere without a pain center in your brain becoming active, just as it is not possible to see a color without a color area becoming active. Both can happen without a normal outside stimulus but the subjective experience is just as vivid. A person "prone" to psychosomatic pains might have exactly the same neurological situation as a synesthete, be it unpruned synapses or lack of normal inhibitory functions in a certain "circuit".

Stress can trigger premature birth, but I would not call birthing a psychosomatic process. This is an issue of needing new terminology and not a disagreement with some of your conclusions.
 

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