Medical Synesthesia, some people perceive individual symbols, characters, numbers

[zoobyshoe]

I'm going to look for some clarinet music to listen to.

Try "Rhapsody in Blue". It opens with a clarinet.

If it works, we'll have to have the title changed to "Rhapsody in Purple."

 

[waht]

Try "Rhapsody in Blue". It opens with a clarinet.

If it works, we'll have to have the title changed to "Rhapsody in Purple."

Lol. Tried that along with Mozart's and Stravinsky's clarinet suit but they are just too fast paced to get any lock on. I'm trying to think of something really slow.

To me the ringing reminds me of when you fill a crystal wine glass with liquid then run your fingers around the edge to produce that ringing sound. You can change frequency with more or less liquid, give that a shot too, if that does it, you have found the stimulus that produces the colors. Try to match the ringing that occurs just after 7:05 in the music, then play with the frequency up and down

I'm not sure if I understand there is any ringing involved in the Bruckner's excerpt. In the wine glass example, the ringing would quickly dissipate, and in the Bruckner's excerpt the pitch seems to be stretched or suspended in time.

I don't have wine glasses right now, but I did tap a regular crystal cup to produce the ringing, and it didn't do anything. No color.

 

[rhody]

Waht,

Give this a listen, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFZ9TK37E78", one of my favorite Christmas tunes. There is synthesizer, and cymbals that ring in different frequencies/intensities. Not sure if his flute will do it, it is too flat.

Rhody...

Edit: I just read your post last post: "too fast paced to get any lock on" maybe the key is a slow ringing, you may intuitively know the range, and just need to "hunt" for it.
There is slow/medium/fast paced ringing in this piece.

 

[waht]

Waht,Give this a listen, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFZ9TK37E78", one of my favorite Christmas tunes. There is synthesizer, and cymbals that ring in different frequencies/intensities. Not sure if his flute will do it, it is too flat.

Jethro is also too fast, but the bell part from 3:10-3:30 is really beautiful, but still no color.

I just read your post last post: "too fast paced to get any lock on" maybe the key is a slow ringing, you may intuitively know the range, and just need to "hunt" for it.
There is slow/medium/fast paced ringing in this piece.

I think I found another one. I thought to look in Bruckner because I used to be familiar with his music.

In this clarinet/oboe excerpt from his 8th symphony, 1st mov.



3:37-3:54 and 5:45-6:30 seems be inducing a white-crystal-light bluish color for a while. But there is no other transition of colors, it's only white then it's gone.

I checked their frequency spectrum and they all have 1.5 KHz in common. In addition, the 3:37 part has a strong component at 2.0 KHz, and the 5:45 part has a 1.7 KHz and 2.5 KHz components.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Hi waht, that is wonderful. I'm not able to link, but on page 53 of the "best songs ever" Thread in GD, there are some links about Helene Grimaud. Her audio-color ability came to her initially with an orange colour. She has said this didn't surprise her too much as she already experienced grapheme-colour cross talk. You may find that interesting. Also, did you listen to the 2nd movement of Mozart's clarinet? It is slow, and involves extension, just a thought.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I thought of another thing - When I'm cooking and trying to taste and determining the appropriate seasoning, I see taste as a sort of pentagonal diagram in my mind.

 

[waht]

Hi waht, that is wonderful. I'm not able to link, but on page 53 of the "best songs ever" there are some links about Helene Grimaud. Her audio-color ability came to her initially with an orange stain that didn't surprise her too much because she already experienced grapheme colour. You may find that interesting.

Indeed, that's interesting and similar.

Also, did you listen to the 2nd movement in Mozart's clarinet? It is slow, and involves extension, just a thought.

I've listened to the Mozart's clarinet concerto many times, and particularly the adagio whose tempo matches that of Burckner's pieces, and suffice it to say there is no hint of any color experience. When I come back to Brucker again, those few instances when clarinet/oboe is playing produces a color experience, and then it's gone when other instruments take lead. So I guess it's just one of those really undeveloped sound synesthesia that would probably go unnoticed had I not stumbled upon the score by accident.

So far I've discovered three sound colors: purple, red-orange, and brilliant white.

When I try to match these colors with my definite grapheme synesthesia generated colors for letters:

Color of "J" is the same purple as the sound-generated purple, and colors of "C" or "X" match with sound generated brilliant white.

Surprisingly, there isn't any letter match for sound red-orange, the closest would be "F" and or "N" by they are not exactly same matches as the previous ones.

 

[waht]

I thought of another thing - When I'm cooking and trying to taste and determining the appropriate seasoning, I see taste as a sort of pentagonal diagram in my mind.

That's cool. A pentagon is yellow for me.

 

[zoobyshoe]

So far I've discovered three sound colors: purple, red-orange, and brilliant white.

When I try to match these colors with my definite grapheme synesthesia generated colors for letters:

Color of "J" is the same purple as the sound-generated purple, and colors of "C" or "X" match with sound generated brilliant white.

Surprisingly, there isn't any letter match for sound red-orange, the closest would be "F" and or "N" by they are not exactly same matches as the previous ones.

Getting off topic due to the phrase "no match": Cytowic and Sacks report a couple cases of people seeing "martian" colors; colors they only see in synesthesia and have never seen in the real world.

A couple years back in General Discussion someone posted a thread asking, vaguely, if it was possible to see "new" colors. I'm wondering now if that poster might not have been seeing synesthetic "martian" colors.

Anyway, I think Fuzzyfelt's story has suggested what might be the explanation for your Bruckner experience: this is a form of synesthesia that was developing but got arrested somehow. That's why it's so limited.

I recall you telling me about crossing a math threshold where it all suddenly started making sense to you. Makes me want to speculate that when the neurons were most plastic you put your attention on math instead of sound->color, and that ended up going nowhere, while your math flourished.

 

[rhody]

Anyway, I think Fuzzyfelt's story has suggested what might be the explanation for your Bruckner experience: this is a form of synesthesia that was developing but got arrested somehow. That's why it's so limited.

I recall you telling me about crossing a math threshold where it all suddenly started making sense to you. Makes me want to speculate that when the neurons were most plastic you put your attention on math instead of sound->color, and that ended up going nowhere, while your math flourished.

zooby, waht, fuzzy,

If I understand what you are saying, you (Zooby) are saying that waht's synesthesia is a result of selective or partial pruning of the neurons in selective brain areas resulting in a "partial spectrum" of color experience in the presence of certain kinds of music. Is this what you meant ? It certainly makes sense, sort of like a "clipped" or partial synesthestic experience, no ? Very perceptive thinking, I must say Zooby.

Rhody...

 

[zoobyshoe]

zooby, waht, fuzzy,

If I understand what you are saying, you (Zooby) are saying that waht's synesthesia is a result of selective or partial pruning of the neurons in selective brain areas resulting in a "partial spectrum" of color experience in the presence of certain kinds of music. Is this what you meant ? It certainly makes sense, sort of like a "clipped" or partial synesthestic experience, no ? Very perceptive thinking, I must say Zooby.

Rhody...

Without any reference to a proposed mechanism (pruning, etc) fuzzyfelt reports this woman's synesthesia started with one color, and progressed from there:

...about Helene Grimaud. Her audio-color ability came to her initially with an orange colour.

So, with that in mind, I'm simply speculating that waht was on the verge of developing a similar synesthesia, but that in his case, he only got as far as three colors in response to a very specific trigger, and then the whole development got arrested somehow. Crossing his math threshold was a speculated arresting factor, a "for instance".

 

[rhody]

Without any reference to a proposed mechanism (pruning, etc) fuzzyfelt reports this woman's synesthesia started with one color, and progressed from there:

So, with that in mind, I'm simply speculating that waht was on the verge of developing a similar synesthesia, but that in his case, he only got as far as three colors in response to a very specific trigger, and then the whole development got arrested somehow. Crossing his math threshold was a speculated arresting factor, a "for instance".

zooby,

What you just said makes total sense, however this leaves a lingering question, what accounts for the "speculated arresting factor". To find the root cause or causes of that would be very interesting for sure.

From what we know about the last twenty years of research into synesthesia, and what we have seen with waht's form of synesthesia, an image comes to mind. Picture an octopus, and on each arm each small suction cup represents a fraction of a crossed sense. An octopus with all arms and all suction cups represents a "complete synesthete", all five senses crossed in full fidelity. Anything less, missing arms, partial missing arms and suction cups would represent an incomplete or arrested type. Octopus lose arms and suction cups and still survive due to accidents and fights with predators.

Maybe the term, "Fractional or arrested synesthesia" needs to be considered for certain types of synesthesia as in waht's case. Zooby, waht, what do you think of this ?

Rhody...

 

[waht]

Getting off topic due to the phrase "no match": Cytowic and Sacks report a couple cases of people seeing "martian" colors; colors they only see in synesthesia and have never seen in the real world.

I meant to say that purple from sound is same as grapheme purple for the letter "J." Same in color, shade, or hue. Similarly, the sound color of brilliant white is same as for letters "C" and "X."

However, the sound generated red-orange is completely unique, there is no grapheme symbol counterpart, but I can still create it using photoshop. So it isn't like a sixth sense color so to speak.

I recall you telling me about crossing a math threshold where it all suddenly started making sense to you. Makes me want to speculate that when the neurons were most plastic you put your attention on math instead of sound->color, and that ended up going nowhere, while your math flourished.

In early adolescence, or puberty I never really liked music at all, compared with my peers who were blasting metallica, dance or rap music 24/7. I even got a CD player on birthday or Christmas because the family wanted to encourage me to listen to music. But I rarely played anything on it. Then by the age 15 I picked up classical music, and Bruckner was among the first few composers I listened to alot, probably the most at the time. By 18 I moved on from Bruckner, and branched to a variety of other composers, and genres, and never really listened to Bruckner again since then. In the mean time I was intensely preoccupied with math and science, and developing the *visual stuff.

So the music wasn't really a major developing force early on.

Crossing his math threshold was a speculated arresting factor, a "for instance".

For those that don't know, in 7th grade I was put in a low level special needs math class because I flunked everything math. During the following summer something clicked in my head in one moment, and I understood math extremely well the next second, so much so that I studied pre-calc throughout the summer, and little bit of differential and integral calculus on my own for fun. In 8th grade same school, I ran into the same special needs teacher and talked about derivatives, and his reaction was so priceless.

 

[zoobyshoe]

zooby,

What you just said makes total sense, however this leaves a lingering question, what accounts for the "speculated arresting factor". To find the root cause or causes of that would be very interesting for sure.

From what we know about the last twenty years of research into synesthesia, and what we have seen with waht's form of synesthesia, an image comes to mind. Picture an octopus, and on each arm each small suction cup represents a fraction of a crossed sense. An octopus with all arms and all suction cups represents a "complete synesthete", all five senses crossed in full fidelity. Anything less, missing arms, partial missing arms and suction cups would represent an incomplete or arrested type. Octopus lose arms and suction cups and still survive due to accidents and fights with predators.

Maybe the term, "Fractional or arrested synesthesia" needs to be considered for certain types of synesthesia as in waht's case. Zooby, waht, what do you think of this ?

Rhody...

The mechanism is so up in the air I hesitate to venture any new terminology. If they were to pin down a mechanism that could be objectively demonstrated then they could sort things into piles: this phenomenon is caused by this mechanism, that is not. Then the terminology would have more meaning than "This person seems to be experiencing something related to what that person experiences."

Saying waht's synesthesia was "arrested" is just grabbing on to one choice of words that occurred to me to describe the possibility it could have developed much more but didn't. I don't know if it was "arrested". It could be the encouraging factor was withdrawn. It could be something else.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I meant to say that purple from sound is same as grapheme purple for the letter "J." Same in color, shade, or hue. Similarly, the sound color of brilliant white is same as for letters "C" and "X."

I got this.

However, the sound generated red-orange is completely unique, there is no grapheme symbol counterpart, but I can still create it using photoshop. So it isn't like a sixth sense color so to speak.

This is where you said "no match", and I went off topic about the "martian colors". That was just free association. I understood that your red-orange was a real color. I was literally just reacting to the phrase "no match", and changing the subject.

For those that don't know, in 7th grade I was put in a low level special needs math class because I flunked everything math. During the following summer something clicked in my head in one moment, and I understood math extremely well the next second, so much so that I studied pre-calc throughout the summer, and little bit of differential and integral calculus on my own for fun. In 8th grade same school, I ran into the same special needs teacher and talked about derivatives, and his reaction so priceless.

Great story. I keep wondering when I'll suddenly get math.

 

[waht]

This is where you said "no match", and I went off topic about the "martian colors". That was just free association. I understood that your red-orange was a real color. I was literally just reacting to the phrase "no match", and changing the subject.

I think it's my incoherent description to blame - as I usually rush to type up a response before it's idea is gone from my head the next moment. If I miss I have to think much harder of what I was going to say, and in what particular wording configuration - because the idea, or a picture I had of what I was going to say has evaporated. That's when I jumble things up the most.

Great story. I keep wondering when I'll suddenly get math.

I already had some knowledge of math drilled into me by force prior to understanding it. The eureka moment came when understanding of it suddenly emerged on a large scale when so much made sense in one second. But the subsequent math was learned the normal way, book by book.

So perhaps picking up a book on analysis and visiting the math section of this forum once in a while?

Needless to say, I couldn't draw an artwork if my life depended on it. Motor skills are less than mediocre, tripping and spilling beverages all the time, hand writing is horrible and embarrassing, and the list goes on and on.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I already had some knowledge of math drilled into me by force prior to understanding it. The eureka moment came when understanding of it suddenly emerged on a large scale when so much made sense in one second. But the subsequent math was learned the normal way, book by book.

So perhaps picking up a book on analysis and visiting the math section of this forum once in a while?

I want the effortless epiphany, instant savant math skills. I want to look at Fermat's last theorem, have a blast of insight flash across my brain, and chuckle, saying "Hah! Trivial". (I saw something like this is an episode of Star trek once, so I know it's a totally realistic goal.)

Needless to say, I couldn't draw an artwork if my life depended on it. Motor skills are beyond mediocre, tripping and spilling beverages all the time, hand writing is horrible and embarrassing, and the list goes on and on.

It's a funny thing, but I've noticed that the better a person's handwriting the less realistically they can draw. People with good penmanship seem to get sucked into cartooning: learning to draw specific characters as if they were just elaborate letters of the alphabet. They have a formula oriented mind, and are stuck there, unable to adapt to the lack of formula in tight realism.

 

[rhody]

Just found a good source for research papers (using Google Scholar):

Its free, you just need to register with e-mail address: http://www.researchgate.net/researchers/"

I downloaded this: http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Maarten_Van_der_Smagt/publications/"

I am going to compare the results of the newer paper with the one Fuzzyfelt provided in https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2722790&postcount=142" below:

http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/2934/1/2934.pdf"

It will be interesting if the newer 2009 research agrees with or contradicts the older report done in 2007 regarding bi-directional synesthesia. I have some new reading, highlighting to do.

Rhody...

 

[waht]

I want the effortless epiphany, instant savant math skills. I want to look at Fermat's last theorem, have a blast of insight flash across my brain, and chuckle, saying "Hah! Trivial". (I saw something like this is an episode of Star trek once, so I know it's a totally realistic goal.)

Hmm... good taste.

It's a funny thing, but I've noticed that the better a person's handwriting the less realistically they can draw. People with good penmanship seem to get sucked into cartooning

Never thought about it that way, but this description fits perfectly of couple of people I know.

 

[rhody]

This post is the consolidation of posts, https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2724699&postcount=170".

This may take a few posts and more than a few days to complete. I will try to keep it pithy, but drill down with enough detail to keep it interesting. You may read about things you haven't heard of before. It won't be perfect, I will do my best to keep it accurate. If anyone has more accurate or current information that I may overlook, please, add input as you see fit. Here is the outline:

1. Bi-Directional synesthesia: definition
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mri#Basic_MRI_scans"
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEG"
4. Recommend you open a new TAB in your browser and view: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVGlfcP3ATI" (link reproduced here for convenience)
5. Discuss 2007: http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/2934/1/2934.pdf" fMRI, EEG
6. Discuss 2009: http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Maarten_Van_der_Smagt/publications/" EEG only
7. Discuss results of both papers, where they agree, disagree or produce different results.​

Ok, here we go, the definition of bi-directional synesthesia is not set in stone. Parts of it are still to be proven conclusively. It is still confusing to me (the layering part) and I have been reading about it for some time.

1. The definition of bi-directional synesthesia (as referred to in papers in 5,6 above) applies to: (color->number, or number->color), with one stimulating the other, in either order, involving the following:

Upper: associators (in the minds eye) Attentional/inhibitory processes are involved (2009 T Gebuis et al.)​

Lower: projectors (out in space) Attentional/inhibitory/perceptual processes are involved (2009 T Gebuis et al.)​

Synesthetic experience can result from bottom up (lower:perceptual) AND top down (attentional/inhibitory) processes, OR from top down (upper:attentional/inhibitory) experiences only
​

2 - 7 To be added... this is a start

References:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVGlfcP3ATI"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_2D3Lh1v74&feature=related"
http://www.mondofacto.com/facts/dictionary?event-related+potentials,+p300"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEG"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_magnetic_resonance_imaging"
http://www.mrisafety.com/safety_article.asp?subject=180"
http://cbc.ucsd.edu/pdf/neurocog_synesthesia.pdf"
http://web.mit.edu/swg/ImagingPubs/experimental-design/Miezin.NeuroImage.2000.pdf"

Brain Anatomy Graphics:

Rhody...

P.S. This is an interesting challenge, outside of my comfort zone.

 

[mikekhogan447]

I hope, through this discussion, that we keep three things in mind:

1) Real synesthesia is quite rare.

2) Out of all neurological/perceptual phenomena, this one is by FAR the most commonly faked. Good attention-getter; makes people feel special.
2b) Everybody is a synesthesiac to some extent: certain words or sounds bring certain notions or even vague sensory experiences to mind. Some, after reading about synesthesia, will themselves into "having" it.

I don't trust many reports of synesthesia. I only believe them if the case has been validated with standardized tests for that specific synesthesia.

Not to be a downer or anything.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I hope, through this discussion, that we keep three things in mind:

1) Real synesthesia is quite rare.

2) Out of all neurological/perceptual phenomena, this one is by FAR the most commonly faked. Good attention-getter; makes people feel special.
2b) Everybody is a synesthesiac to some extent: certain words or sounds bring certain notions or even vague sensory experiences to mind. Some, after reading about synesthesia, will themselves into "having" it.

I don't trust many reports of synesthesia. I only believe them if the case has been validated with standardized tests for that specific synesthesia.

Not to be a downer or anything.

OK, but where are all the studies saying "80% of people claiming synesthesia proved to be faking it." I haven't run across one case of someone being "busted".

 

[mikekhogan447]

OK, but where are all the studies saying "80% of people claiming synesthesia proved to be faking it." I haven't run across one case of someone being "busted".

True, I don't think that occurs often in lab settings--with tests. I was just thinking of people I knew who talked about their synesthesia at parties. Anecdotal. I wouldn't assume that someone who described his/her synesthesia soberly and specifically (like, looking over the thread, waht did) was faking it.

I wasn't speaking in a professional capacity (I'm only a student). As a neuroscience student, though, synesthesia baffles me. But it seems like once (if) the "binding problem" is solved--the problem of how different aspects of a percept such as the form, color, and movement of a chair bind together as a unified whole--researchers may get a firmer handle on how to explain synesthesia. Or vice versa.

From what I understand, there isn't firm neurological evidence that simple "cross-wiring" does it. If the structural connection differences that cause synesthesia are indirect--distributed, rare--then structural imaging might not show anything. What's more, the main cause could lie in differences in synaptic efficacy (does anybody know if there's any histology research on synesthesia?). It seems likely, though, that you should see some brain activity differences. You could go the conventional fMRI-localization route. I'd like to see researchers try to develop some kind of rigorous functional measure that clearly distinguishes synesthetic from control brain activity, like some have done with epilepsy (e.g. C. J. Stam).

 

[fuzzyfelt]

zooby, waht, fuzzy,

If I understand what you are saying, you (Zooby) are saying that waht's synesthesia is a result of selective or partial pruning of the neurons in selective brain areas resulting in a "partial spectrum" of color experience in the presence of certain kinds of music. Is this what you meant ? It certainly makes sense, sort of like a "clipped" or partial synesthestic experience, no ? Very perceptive thinking, I must say Zooby.

Rhody...

Firstly, sorry because in trying to edit my post to be more precise about where I had written about Grimaud previously in GD, since I wasn't able to link, to see my amendment properly I needed to wipe most of what I had written, and couldn’t remember exactly what that had been when I tried to re-write it.

My previous mention of Helene Grimaud in GD-

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=130401&page=53
Post #845,
Which contains this link-

http://www2.deutschegrammophon.com/s...credo&DETAIL=1

'It was when I was eleven, and working on the F sharp major Prelude from the first book of Bach's Well-tempered Clavier - I perceived something that was very bright, between red and orange, very warm and vivid: an almost shapeless stain, rather like what you would see in the recording control-room if the image of sound were projected on a screen. But as numbers had always had colours for me - two was yellow, four was red, five was green - and as I have always found music evocative, I didn't regard this as unusual. It was more the idea of colour than colour itself. Certain pieces always project me into a particular colour-world. Sometimes it's a result of the tonality - C minor is black, and D minor, the key that has always been closest to me, being the most dramatic and poignant is blue.'

I don’t know of any studies authenticating Grimaud’s synaesthesia, but have seen some studies that accept her reports.

From the anecdote quoted, it seems possible that in realising the experience of audio-colour cross-talk, it may have become easier to access.

It is also hard to detect from the use of “perceive”, but by the explanation that it is "more the idea of colour than colour itself”, it sounds as if this audio-colour experience is of the "higher" type.

Also from the above description, it seems different aspects of sound evoke responses.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Indeed, that's interesting and similar.



I've listened to the Mozart's clarinet concerto many times, and particularly the adagio whose tempo matches that of Burckner's pieces, and suffice it to say there is no hint of any color experience. When I come back to Brucker again, those few instances when clarinet/oboe is playing produces a color experience, and then it's gone when other instruments take lead. So I guess it's just one of those really undeveloped sound synesthesia that would probably go unnoticed had I not stumbled upon the score by accident.

So far I've discovered three sound colors: purple, red-orange, and brilliant white.

When I try to match these colors with my definite grapheme synesthesia generated colors for letters:

Color of "J" is the same purple as the sound-generated purple, and colors of "C" or "X" match with sound generated brilliant white.

Surprisingly, there isn't any letter match for sound red-orange, the closest would be "F" and or "N" by they are not exactly same matches as the previous ones.

Thanks for your response, waht. I knew you had said you had listened to the concerto, but couldn't help asking about the adagio specifically. Still, very interesting!

 

[fuzzyfelt]

I also didn’t link to the thread where I wrote of Einstein, it is # 25 in this thread - https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=390043

 

[rhody]

To all: Google is an amazing thing, try this: http://trends.google.com/trends?q=synesthesia&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0"

Very neat way to see works produced by date/country.

You can filter results using the drop down combo boxes, top right,

and can export to a *.csv file for import into Word, Spreadsheet or Database. Cool...

Edit: 06/11

I haven't tried this yet, but it looks worthwhile as well: http://translate.google.com/?hl=en&tab=wT#" inputs: text, webpage, URL, or upload document.

I haven't found a document on synesthesia in say French and then tried to translate it, but it is nice to know it is there.

Rhody...

 

[rhody]

This is a continuation of post #220. I want to keep the body of it altogether, so what has already been done is reproduced with minor changes as needed:

I will try to keep it pithy, but drill down with enough detail to keep it interesting. You may read about things you haven't heard of before. It won't be perfect, I will do my best to keep it accurate. If anyone has more accurate or current information that I may overlook, please, add input as you see fit:

1. Bi-Directional synesthesia: definition
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mri#Basic_MRI_scans"
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEG"
4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arterial_spin_labeling#Arterial_spin_labeling"
5. Recommend you open a new TAB in your browser and view: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVGlfcP3ATI"
6. Discuss 2007: http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/2934/1/2934.pdf" fMRI, EEG
7. Discuss 2009: http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Maarten_Van_der_Smagt/publications/" EEG only
8. Discuss results of both papers, where they agree, disagree or produce different results.

The definition of bi-directional synesthesia is not set in stone. Parts of it are still to be proven conclusively. There is evidence based on these two studies, (and earlier studies listed in the references section of each paper) that suggest a more complete definition of bi-directional synesthesia be defined as:

1. (as referred to in the two papers above) applies to: (color->grapheme, or grapheme->color), with one stimulating the other, in either order, at an explicit (perceived) and implicit (person is not aware) level involving the following:

Upper: associators (in the minds eye) Attentional/inhibitory processes are involved (2009 T Gebuis et al.)
Lower: projectors (out in space) Attentional/inhibitory/perceptual processes are involved (2009 T Gebuis et al.)
Synesthetic experience can result from bottom up (lower:perceptual) AND top down (attentional/inhibitory) processes, OR from top down (upper:attentional/inhibitory) experiences only

2. fMRI Overview:

Functional MRI (fMRI) measures signal changes in the brain that are due to changing neural activity. The brain is scanned at low resolution but at a rapid rate (typically once every 2–3 seconds). Increases in neural activity cause changes in the MR signal via T*2 changes; this mechanism is referred to as the BOLD (blood-oxygen-level dependent) effect. Increased neural activity causes an increased demand for oxygen, and the vascular system actually overcompensates for this, increasing the amount of oxygenated hemoglobin relative to deoxygenated hemoglobin. Because deoxygenated hemoglobin attenuates the MR signal, the vascular response leads to a signal increase that is related to the neural activity. The precise nature of the relationship between neural activity and the BOLD signal is a subject of current research. The BOLD effect also allows for the generation of high resolution 3D maps of the venous vasculature within neural tissue.

My take on this description is that fMRI is very good at capturing the location and "activation" or a signal, whereas EEG is more accurate, in time, at capturing the signals characteristics, frequency, duration, etc...

3. EEG Overview:

The electrical activity of the brain can be described in spatial scales from the currents within a single dendritic spine to the relatively gross potentials that the EEG records from the scalp, much the same way that economics can be studied from the level of a single individual's personal finances to the macro-economics of nations. Neurons, or nerve cells, are electrically active cells that are primarily responsible for carrying out the brain's functions. Neurons create action potentials, which are discrete electrical signals that travel down axons and cause the release of chemical neurotransmitters at the synapse, which is an area of near contact between two neurons. This neurotransmitter then activates a receptor in the dendrite or body of the neuron that is on the other side of the synapse, the post-synaptic neuron. The neurotransmitter, when combined with the receptor, typically causes an electrical current within the dendrite or body of the post-synaptic neuron. Thousands of post-synaptic currents from a single neuron's dendrites and body then sum up to cause the neuron to generate an action potential. This neuron then synapses on other neurons, and so on. EEG reflects correlated synaptic activity caused by post-synaptic potentials of cortical neurons.

and

EEG also has some characteristics that compare favorably with behavioral testing:
* EEG can detect covert processing (i.e., processing that does not require a response)
* EEG can be used in subjects who are incapable of making a motor response
* Some ERP components can be detected even when the subject is not attending to the stimuli
* As compared with other reaction time paradigms, ERPs can elucidate stages of processing (rather than just the final end result)

4. fMRI, EEG limitations:

Functional MRI has high spatial resolution but relatively poor temporal resolution (of the order of several seconds). Electroencephalography (EEG) directly measures the brain's electrical activity, giving high temporal resolution (~milliseconds) but low spatial resolution. The two techniques are therefore complementary and may be used simultaneously to record brain activity.

and

EEG has several strong points as a tool for exploring brain activity. EEG's can detect changes within a millisecond timeframe, excellent considering an action potential takes approximately 0.5-130 milliseconds to propagate across a single neuron, depending on the type of neuron[13]. Other methods of looking at brain activity, such as PET and fMRI have time resolution between seconds and minutes. EEG measures the brain's electrical activity directly, while other methods record changes in blood flow (e.g., SPECT, fMRI)

5. Recommend you open a new TAB in your browser and view: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVGlfcP3ATI"

6. Discuss 2007: http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/2934/1/2934.pdf" fMRI, EEG

My interpretation (from paper #1 above): when color stimulates number, the synesthete sees the number, and brain shows activation in color and grapheme areas. Here is the tricky part, at this point the person is not aware that the number (secondary stimulation) is stimulating the color area of the brain (they do not see it, it is implicit), experimental data shows a cross activation in the areas of the brain associated with grapheme and color areas. This is the implicit case: a synesthete compared the height of two lines, line color modulated the performance, a longer line was presented in a color that was induced by a larger digit. This is the congruent case.

There is another case as well. This is the explicit case: a synesthete compared a longer line appeared in a color induced by a smaller digit and a shorter line in a color that was induced by a larger digit. This is the incongruent condition. The synesthete subject spontaneously reported that the colors of the lines evoked the perception of the corresponding digits, showing explicit experience of bi-directionality.

7. Discuss 2009: http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Maarten_Van_der_Smagt/publications/" EEG only. Remember, you must sign up here in order to download this paper.

We will see later that the implicit case supports evidence for 'higher" and "lower" synesthetes indicating that, excerpt from the 2009 paper, (I let the authors relate this information because it was clearer than my repeated attempts at interpretation, most important concepts highlighted in blue):

these results are indicative of the existence of distinct groups of synesthetes. Synesthetic experiences can apparently arise as a result of both bottom up (perceptual) and topdown (attentional⁄inhibitory) processes, or as a result of top-down (attentional⁄inhibitory) effects only. Our results fit well with the classification proposed by Ramachandran & Hubbard (2001), who suggested that besides the classification of synesthetes on the basis of their phenomenological experience, synesthetes could be classified on the basis of the inducers or the triggers of the synesthetic experience. They referred to synesthetes that reveal effects at lower perceptual processes as ‘lower’ synesthetes and to synesthetes with higher cognitive effects as ‘higher’ synesthetes. Our results indicate that attentional or inhibitory processes appear to play a role in bi-directional priming in all synesthetes, whereas only some (possibly ‘lower’) synesthetes reveal a priming effect at a lower, possibly perceptual level, as well. Dixon & Smilek (2005) already emphasized the necessity of scrutinizing effects at the single subject level. They stated that if synesthesia is not a unitary phenomenon, possible patterns might be masked when all synesthetes are grouped together, resulting in conflicting reports or erroneous conclusions. Our results underline this suggestion and might explain some of the conflicting results reported concerning the stage at which the synesthetic experience arises. Involvement of both early pre-attentive as well as later attentional processes has been demonstrated in psychophysical (see for a critical review, see Gheri et al., 2008) as well as imaging research (Paulesu et al., 1995; Schiltz et al., 1999; Nunn et al., 2002; Elias et al., 2003; Weiss et al., 2005; Rich et al., 2006; Barnett et al., 2008; Beeli et al., 2008; Brang et al., 2008). In accordance with the study of Hubbard et al. (2005), the present study demonstrated that (grapheme-color) synesthesia is far from a unitary phenomenon.

Our results demonstrate, for the first time, that the same mechanisms underlie bi-directional interactions in synesthesia, at least for implicit synesthetes. At the group level, the priming effect for number to color as well as color to number was present at parietal (possibly perceptual processes) as well as frontal electrode sites (possibly attention or inhibitory processes). The ERP-components affected did not differ Multiple dimensions in bi-directional synesthesia 1709

8. Discuss results of both papers, where they agree, disagree or produce different results.

I am a bit tired at this point, I think you have seen by now what an fMRI can detect versus an EEG, is that the newer 2009 Paper using strictly EEG measurements is that the "priming effect is definitely" more pronounced subjects with synesthesia versus those who do not have it: See figure below:

Second, the first paper (2007) using both fMRI and EEG (non-concurrent) produced evidence for both implicit and for the first time explicit bi-directional synesthesia. I have more to add but can't quite think straight now. No use in pushing and saying something stupid. I will add more here later before the edit period expires. Quote a lot of food for thought and review (if you read the papers three times like I did so most of it sinks in).

Rhody... :zzz:

P.S. I learned something about "learning" in this process that I never really paid attention to before. When you read and try to digest complex material, you never "get it" the first or even the second time through, suggesting as I have come to understand it, new "brain mapping" consisting of new long term neuronal connections being made in the brain when repeated attempts are made to grasp the material. I got this from "The brain that changes itself" by Norman Dodge, MD. Highly recommended reading by: V.S. Ramachandran, who is already at the top of my reading list, so it was a no-brainer from there. I plan to use some of the material from this book for future probings of the mysteries of the brain. There, now I am done, lol.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Thanks Rhody, for all your work here. It is very interesting, e.g.-
"Our results indicate that attentional or inhibitory processes appear to play a role in bi-directional priming in all synesthetes, whereas only some (possibly ‘lower’) synesthetes reveal a priming effect at a lower, possibly perceptual level, as well."
I haven't looked at the second paper, but will when I get a chance.

 

[rhody]

First. an observation, I was just thinking, did my last technical post drive everyone away ?! lol I hope not. There are more brain mysteries to be probed and discussed, at an even deeper level. I am working that now, to be posted in a new thread. This subject blew me away almost as much as synesthesia did a few months back, and from what I know so far is even newer than serious research being done in synesthesia. This time I will take my time before I post and provide as much background/research as I can.

This is a funny story, since I have spent considerable time and effort with this subject and enjoy engaging others with it, I sent a link to this thread to a co-worker whom I have known almost 20 years, knowing she likes to study how the brain works. She read parts of it and I stopped by to ask what she thought.

It turns out that when she eats certain foods she feels a cubic sensation (with slightly rounded edges), a fairly rare form of synesthesia, second, when she looks at small square floor tiles (one color), she sees pastel pink, blue and yellow colors in patterns between the tile margins. She said she always remembers having it. Then I asked her if she had them more frequently when calm and not distracted by other sensory input, she said yes, they come and go. Being an engineer with a keen interest in how the brain works, she borrowed my copy of Cytowic's, "The Man who tasted Shapes", said she would read it and then discuss. Pretty cool. As she was relating her stories about mixed senses, a couple of other folks who were in hearing distance, asked about it, so I sent them the link to this thread.

One more thing, I said this back in https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2700096&postcount=93"

9. Those with synesthasia have great memory for detail, and an indelible recollection of the synesthetic event itself.

My co-worker and friend who I have known for twenty years definitely has great detail memory. I have seen it time and again over the years.

Without keeping statistics on people who claim to have it, I would guess that about 1 to 2 in 10 I have given the link to either have some form of it or know someone who does. I wouldn't be surprised if some may want to join this little party at some point to contribute an experience not already covered.

Rhody...

 

[zoobyshoe]

It turns out that when she eats certain foods she feels a cubic sensation (with slightly rounded edges), a fairly rare form of synesthesia, second, when she looks at small square floor tiles (one color), she sees pastel pink, blue and yellow colors in patterns between the tile margins.

I'm starting to get the impression from this, and the stories by Waht and Chi Meson, that there's a fair amount of 'fragmentary' synesthesia out there, people with just a bit of it triggered by very specific things.

 

[rhody]

I'm starting to get the impression from this, and the stories by Waht and Chi Meson, that there's a fair amount of 'fragmentary' synesthesia out there, people with just a bit of it triggered by very specific things.

Zooby,

You beat me to it. After the story with how waht's selective sound/color synesthesia, certain frequencies played a certain way triggering it, I agree with you. This is worth investigating. This thread will serve as a semi-permanent record of those who have incomplete forms of it. It is compelling evidence. Thanks, waht, through questions and answers were able to pin down the exact characteristics of your form of synesthesia. When my friend finishes Cytowic's book she agreed to answer questions. It ought to be interesting because she is an engineer and takes a scientific approach to things, plus she likes the subject to boot.

Rhody...

 

[fuzzyfelt]

This also sounds rather like the other experiences mentioned, like Helene Grimaud's, waht's, etc.-

"In his early years, Kandinsky discovered his synesthesia while attending a performance of Wagner's opera Lohengrin in Moscow:

'The violins, the deep tones of the basses, and especially the wind instruments at that time embodied for me all the power of that pre-nocturnal hour. I saw all my colors in my mind; they stood before my eyes. Wild, almost crazy lines were sketched in front of me' (Kandinsky, 1913/1982, p. 364). "
http://www.theassc.org/files/assc/2290.pdf


This article expresses opinions on this sort of thing. It is a version of the final chapter of Van Campen’s book, which Enuma Elish had linked to, “The Hidden Sense: Synesthesia in Art and Science (Cambridge MA: MIT Press 2007). ”, adapted and elaborated upon-

http://www.pucsp.br/pos/tidd/teccogs/artigos/pdf/teccogs_edicao1_2009_artigo_CAMPEN.pdf

“I do not think that every person can become aware of all types of synesthesia. There are obviously brain constraints on that. But I do think that many persons are not aware of their synesthetic potential, simply because they use only a portion of their senses.”

 

[fuzzyfelt]

I wrote this post in the audio-visual thread, but it seems appropriate to put it here.

I understand humans have mulitsensed perceptions with benefits like added affirmation and precision. I’ve read the gustatory and olfactory sensations are difficult to distinguish between and are particularly old senses both with important benefits in the detection, and interpretation of quality, of food. Benefits of audio-visual sensory integration would involve precise location of stimulus.

This is book seems a good over-view from 2004. Chapter 2, on page 27 is about audio-visual perception in particular-

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...A#v=onepage&q=stein cell multisensory&f=false


Parts of the book describe cross-modality, hetromodality, multisensory neurons, synaesthesia, etc.. This is an example of the papers mentioned-
http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/abstract/22/13/5749

I had mentioned the McGurk effect before here, (again-
) and understand that the youtube I presented described a typical response, but that reactions vary and may hypothetically depend on individual modal strengths and weaknesses. I don’t have that response (and can think of a reason why that may be the case). I wonder if that means in this instance, mine is an atypical cross-modal response. Isn’t that a definition of synaesthesia :) ?

 

[rhody]

I haven't tried this yet, but it looks worthwhile as well: http://translate.google.com/?hl=en&tab=wT#" inputs: text, webpage, URL, or upload document.

I haven't found a document on synesthesia in say French and then tried to translate it, but it is nice to know it is there.

Rhody...

I think I just did a first on PF, I translated a technical paper from Turkish to English, have a look at the samples: thumbnails below: some things appear to be lost in the translation, important if you are trying to understand a technical paper like the one I choose. The english is on the left and original turkish is on the right, maybe someone who speaks turkish can show us where translate broke down, lol. If you read through it, it sort of sounds like pigeon english, maybe some linguists (if there are any) who are following this thread can give a more precise definition.

Funny when you try to copy the google generated html it is back in turkish, and if you save it as html it doesn't open in Word correctly. May be something I am not doing right.

I thought it was worth trying and to give you the results so you can decide for yourself if it is worth bothering with. For something like a simple News story it may squeak by, but not for getting facts misinterpreted in a scientific paper. It was worth the time to explore it though, IMHO.

Rhody...

 

[ViewsofMars]

Here is the latest research on synesthesia.

Neuroimage. 2010 Jun 11. [Epub ahead of print]

Magnetoencephalography reveals early activation of V4 in grapheme-color synesthesia.
Brang D, Hubbard EM, Coulson S, Huang M, Ramachandran VS.

University of CA, San Diego.

Abstract
Grapheme-color synesthesia is a neurological phenomenon in which letters and numbers (graphemes) consistently evoke particular colors (e.g. A may be experienced as red). The cross-activation theory proposes that synesthesia arises as a result of cross-activation between posterior temporal grapheme areas (PTGA) and color processing area V4, while the disinhibited feedback theory proposes that synesthesia arises from disinhibition of pre-existing feedback connections. Here we used magnetoencephalography (MEG) to test whether V4 and PTGA activate nearly simultaneously, as predicted by the cross-activation theory, or whether V4 activation occurs only after the initial stages of grapheme processing, as predicted by the disinhibited feedback theory. Using our high-resolution MEG source imaging technique (VESTAL), PTGA and V4 regions of interest (ROIs) were separately defined, and activity in response to the presentation of achromatic graphemes was measured. Activation levels in PTGA did not significantly differ between synesthetes and controls (suggesting similar grapheme-processing mechanisms), whereas activation in V4 was significantly greater in synesthetes. In synesthetes, PTGA activation exceeded baseline levels beginning 105-109ms, and V4 activation did so 5ms later, suggesting nearly simultaneous activation of these areas. Results are discussed in the context of an updated version of the cross-activation model, the cascaded cross-tuning model of grapheme-color synesthesia. Copyright © 2010. Published by Elsevier Inc.

PMID: 20547226 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/e...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

The link (url) provided above is from the U.S. National Library
of Medicine- National Institutes of Health. You can review from
that website to the right of the page related citations pertaining
to the topic: synesthesia.

 

[waht]

Zooby,

You beat me to it. After the story with how waht's selective sound/color synesthesia, certain frequencies played a certain way triggering it, I agree with you. This is worth investigating. This thread will serve as a semi-permanent record of those who have incomplete forms of it. It is compelling evidence. Thanks, waht, through questions and answers were able to pin down the exact characteristics of your form of synesthesia. When my friend finishes Cytowic's book she agreed to answer questions. It ought to be interesting because she is an engineer and takes a scientific approach to things, plus she likes the subject to boot.

Rhody...

By talking about synesthesia I've been able to learn more about myself in terms of synesthesia. And there is no better crowd for this than you guys... In retrospect, I used to be submersed in its subjective experience for most of my life, and now there is a whole new dimension to it which brings a pleasant feeling of closure.

So yes, this thread is superb, and can be certainly enriched by more stories of people that come out of the closet.

 

[waht]

This also sounds rather like the other experiences mentioned, like Helene Grimaud's, waht's, etc.-

"In his early years, Kandinsky discovered his synesthesia while attending a performance of Wagner's opera Lohengrin in Moscow:

'The violins, the deep tones of the basses, and especially the wind instruments at that time embodied for me all the power of that pre-nocturnal hour. I saw all my colors in my mind; they stood before my eyes. Wild, almost crazy lines were sketched in front of me' (Kandinsky, 1913/1982, p. 364). "

Very nice find. It seems that Kandinsky had a more advanced case of sound synesthesia as he was able to respond to more ranges of sounds.

 

[ViewsofMars]

First. an observation, I was just thinking, did my last technical post drive everyone away ?! lol I hope not. There are more brain mysteries to be probed and discussed, at an even deeper level. I am working that now, to be posted in a new thread. This subject blew me away almost as much as synesthesia did a few months back, and from what I know so far is even newer than serious research being done in synesthesia. This time I will take my time before I post and provide as much background/research as I can.

This is a funny story, since I have spent considerable time and effort with this subject and enjoy engaging others with it, I sent a link to this thread to a co-worker whom I have known almost 20 years, knowing she likes to study how the brain works. She read parts of it and I stopped by to ask what she thought.

It turns out that when she eats certain foods she feels a cubic sensation (with slightly rounded edges), a fairly rare form of synesthesia, second, when she looks at small square floor tiles (one color), she sees pastel pink, blue and yellow colors in patterns between the tile margins. She said she always remembers having it. Then I asked her if she had them more frequently when calm and not distracted by other sensory input, she said yes, they come and go. Being an engineer with a keen interest in how the brain works, she borrowed my copy of Cytowic's, "The Man who tasted Shapes", said she would read it and then discuss. Pretty cool. As she was relating her stories about mixed senses, a couple of other folks who were in hearing distance, asked about it, so I sent them the link to this thread.

One more thing, I said this back in https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2700096&postcount=93"

My co-worker and friend who I have known for twenty years definitely has great detail memory. I have seen it time and again over the years.

Without keeping statistics on people who claim to have it, I would guess that about 1 to 2 in 10 I have given the link to either have some form of it or know someone who does. I wouldn't be surprised if some may want to join this little party at some point to contribute an experience not already covered.

Rhody...

Hi Rhody. I don't have synesthesia, but have enjoyed contributing to this topic. It's always fun to explore and learn. I reviewed your link to "post #93" and you did mention, " 3. More women than men have it, or at least are reported to admit having it."

I am a woman but that is irrelevant. Your statement isn't a scientific statement so therefore isn't quite correct. But I must say I really do love your enthusiasm and zest for life. You seem to want to help people, which is to me a very important quality of being human.

I'd like to add a little more information to this topic and will only submit the abstract.

The American Journal for Human Genetics 2009 February 13; 84(2): 279–285.
doi: 10.1016/j.ajhg.2009.01.012. PMCID: PMC2668015

Copyright © 2009 The American Society of Human Genetics. Published by Elsevier Ltd. All right reserved..

A Whole-Genome Scan and Fine-Mapping Linkage Study of Auditory-Visual Synesthesia Reveals Evidence of Linkage to Chromosomes 2q24, 5q33, 6p12, and 12p12
Julian E. Asher,1,2 Janine A. Lamb,3 Denise Brocklebank,1 Jean-Baptiste Cazier,1 Elena Maestrini,4 Laura Addis,1 Mallika Sen,1 Simon Baron-Cohen,2 and Anthony P. Monaco1

1Wellcome Trust Centre for Human Genetics, University of Oxford, Roosevelt Drive, Oxford OX3 7BN, UK
2Department of Psychiatry, Section of Developmental Psychiatry, Douglas House, 18B Trumpington Road, University of Cambridge, Cambridge CB2 8AH, UK
3Centre for Integrated Genomic Medical Research, University of Manchester, Stopford Building, Oxford Road, Manchester M13 9PT, UK
4Department of Biology, University of Bologna, Via Selmi 3, Bologna, Italy
Julian E. Asher: j.asher@imperial.ac.uk
Corresponding author ; Email: j.asher@imperial.ac.ukReceived October 6, 2008; Revised December 6, 2008; Accepted January 16, 2009.
This document may be redistributed and reused, subject to certain conditions.
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.
Abstract
Synesthesia, a neurological condition affecting between 0.05%–1% of the population, is characterized by anomalous sensory perception and associated alterations in cognitive function due to interference from synesthetic percepts. A stimulus in one sensory modality triggers an automatic, consistent response in either another modality or a different aspect of the same modality. Familiality studies show evidence of a strong genetic predisposition; whereas initial pedigree analyses supported a single-gene X-linked dominant mode of inheritance with a skewed F:M ratio and a notable absence of male-to-male transmission, subsequent analyses in larger samples indicated that the mode of inheritance was likely to be more complex. Here, we report the results of a whole-genome linkage scan for auditory-visual synesthesia with 410 microsatellite markers at 9.05 cM density in 43 multiplex families (n = 196) with potential candidate regions fine-mapped at 5 cM density. Using NPL and HLOD analysis, we identified four candidate regions. Significant linkage at the genome-wide level was detected to chromosome 2q24 (HLOD = 3.025, empirical genome-wide p = 0.047). Suggestive linkage was found to chromosomes 5q33, 6p12, and 12p12. No support was found for linkage to the X chromosome; furthermore, we have identified two confirmed cases of male-to-male transmission of synesthesia. Our results demonstrate that auditory-visual synesthesia is likely to be an oligogenic disorder subject to multiple modes of inheritance and locus heterogeneity. This study comprises a significant step toward identifying the genetic substrates underlying synesthesia, with important implications for our understanding of the role of genes in human cognition and perception.
###
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668015/?tool=pmcentrez&report=abstract

 

[rhody]

Hi Rhody. I don't have synesthesia, but have enjoyed contributing to this topic. It's always fun to explore and learn. I reviewed your link to "post #93" and you did mention, " 3. More women than men have it, or at least are reported to admit having it."

I am a woman but that is irrelevant. Your statement isn't a scientific statement so therefore isn't quite correct. But I must say I really do love your enthusiasm and zest for life. You seem to want to help people, which is to me a very important quality of being human.

I'd like to add a little more information to this topic and will only submit the abstract.

ViewsofMars,

Thanks for the constructive criticism, how would you rephrase the statement to be more scientific ?

Second, thanks for the complement, to be honest, if it weren't for zooby I wouldn't be writing this at all, thanks for Dr Cytowic's book that started this little adventure, "The Man Who Tasted Shapes", and thanks for your insight and contributions.

I found a free pdf copy of: http://psy2.ucsd.edu/~dbrang/images/brang_neuroimage_2010.pdf" and plan to give it a look when I get a chance. Right now I have a bit of a dilemma, the new topic I am researching is cool but taking a lot of time, but I still want to keep up with new findings in this post. What is even better is that in researching it, there are other concepts that I didn't even know existed until I began with it. I never try to "drill down" more than three levels at one time because I have to grasp the main concept(s) before branching. I don't know if any of you do this, but I open a draft e-mail and include links and short phrases by category while doing research. I have google g-mail where ever I go and can easily add to the draft with the links and notes. It makes things so much easier to organize and then post. The hardest thing for me is to select those key points that tie things together, then, make if flow.

Rhody...

Edit: 6/23

a very important quality of being human

That's funny, for a long time I thought I was part alien/extraterrestrial, lol...

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Included in the explanation of my last post here would be evidence of typical early cortical interactions and other cross-modal interactions with feed-forward/feed-back possibilities, not restricted by requirements of sensory deprivation. Included here are more recent papers-

"These findings demonstrate that audiovisual integration and spatial attention jointly interact to influence activity in an extensive network of brain areas, including associative regions, early sensory-specific visual cortex and subcortical structures that together contribute to the perception of a fused audiovisual percept."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19302160 (Oxford Journals Cerebral Cortex)

"Both the topography and timing of these interactions are consistent with multisensory integration early in the cortical processing hierarchy, in brain regions traditionally held to be unisensory.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10978694"

"our study demonstrates that even short-term crossmodal training of novel AV associations results in integration-related cortical plasticity and training-induced congruency effects for artificial AV stimuli in cortical regions especially of the frontal and (to a lesser degree) the temporal lobes, adding novel aspects to the understanding of object-related AV integration in the human brain."
http://ukpmc.ac.uk/classic/articlerender.cgi?artid=1765134#bib11

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WNP-4JJ87X6-1&_user=10&_coverDate=07%2F01%2F2006&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1377795782&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=3c090a130b251b32850b7eeb73cb7a00

This may add clarity to the assessment of findings here and to an assessment of speculations concerning different pathways, to explain “higher” and “lower” synaesthete variations which Ramachandran has written of (although there are changes with the new paper that VoM has linked to) generally applied to "associator" and "projector" types.-

“In lower synesthetes, we suggest that crossactivation may occur between adjacent regions of the fusiform gyrus involved in letter recognition and color processing, whereas higher synesthesia may arise from crossactivation in the parietal cortex, particularly in the region of the angular gyrus, the ventral intraparietal area, and the lateral intraparietal area (Hubbard et al., 2005b).
http://www.unicog.org/publications/H...onReview05.pdf “
(Posted in Post #87, and referred to subsequently.)

Here is the latest research on synesthesia.



The link (url) provided above is from the U.S. National Library
of Medicine- National Institutes of Health. You can review from
that website to the right of the page related citations pertaining
to the topic: synesthesia.

This is very interesting, thanks VoM!

Interestingly it only tests the "projectors" (of grapheme-colour) which had been generally termed "lower" synaesthetes. Also interesting that the cross-activation results have been interpreted, following Dehaene, to incorporate hierarchical feature ananlysis processes, and that this is mentioned as occurring at the grapheme level and other levels with excitatory and inhibitory connections, both bottom-up and top-down, and allows for other processes beyond the early cross-activation implicated in the study. The paper states the critical next move is further research of “associator synesthetes” . Also further investigation of “the extent to which the cascaded cross-tuning model of synesthesia applies to other variants of the condition or instances of acquired synesthesia” is required. Interesting that the terms “projector” and “associator” are used here.


Regarding posts about new synaesthetic responses, it is also interesting to note that the paper also mentions that during the component stage of this processing would be the provision of a “putative mechanism for the acquisition of new synesthetic percepts”.

 

[rhody]

Fuzzy,

The paper states the critical next move is further research of “associator synesthetes” . Also further investigation of “the extent to which the cascaded cross-tuning model of synesthesia applies to other variants of the condition or instances of acquired synesthesia” is required. Interesting that the terms “projector” and “associator” are used here.

and

Included in the explanation of my last post here would be evidence of typical early cortical interactions and other cross-modal interactions with feed-forward/feed-back possibilities,

This is very cool stuff, a further parsing, identification, localization, association and labeling of the synesthesia experience. So far, we recognize, upper, lower, projector, associator, implicit (not experienced but showing activation on scans), explicit (experienced and reported), bi-directional, bottom up (perceptual), involvement of early pre-attentive processes, involvement in later attentive processes, possible cross-activation, possible simultaneous activation, possible cross tuning model.

Crap, I gave myself a headache trying to condense it. I am sure I missed some descriptions ! lol. It must be the computer science nerd in me trying to reduce all of it into data structures. You can see what I am trying to do here, take a step back, condense, consolidate.

I have been trying to find accurate graphics and or videos where the "normal" five senses (in a non-senesthetic individual) are thought to be processed for perspective. So far haven't come up with a good set of graphs and/or videos to address this. It would be nice to have for discussion and reference. I will keep looking.

Rhody...

 

[ViewsofMars]

I'll make it fast since I have a project to finish up. I think my last two postings from the previous page provided valuable information, especially "A Whole-Genome Scan and Fine-Mapping Linkage Study of Auditory-Visual Synesthesia Reveals Evidence of Linkage to Chromosomes 2q24, 5q33, 6p12, and 12p12."

Let's look at this scenerio: A child grows up with a parent that has synesthesia. Don't you think the parent has a major influence on how the child perceives his/her environment? I do.

Here are two items for thought which you can explore. I have provided a snippet from each. They are from The National Institute on Deafness and Other Communication Disorders -"The National Institutes of Health—The Nation's Medical Research Agency—includes 27 institutes and centers and is a component of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. It is the primary federal agency for conducting and supporting basic, clinical and translational medical research, and it investigates the causes, treatments and cures for both common and rare diseases." Here are two snippets:

1. "Dr. Patricia K. Kuhl is the William P. and Ruth Gerberding Professor at the University of Washington and the Co-Director of the UW Center for Mind, Brain, and Learning.

"Her research has focused on the study of language and the processing of language by the brain. The work has played a major role in demonstrating how early exposure to language alters the mechanisms of perception. The work has broad implications for critical periods in development, for bilingual education and reading readiness, for early brain development, and for research on computer understanding of spoken language.

"In 1997, Dr. Kuhl was awarded the Silver Medal of the Acoustical Society of America. In 1998, she was elected to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. And in 1999, she became President of the Acoustical Society of America, and received the University of Washington's Faculty Lectureship Award.

"Dr. Kuhl was one of six scientists invited to the White House in 1997 to make a presentation at President and Mrs. Clinton's Conference on "Early Learning and the Brain." In 2001, she was one of three scientists invited to make a presentation at President and Mrs. Bush's White House Summit on "Early Cognitive Development: Ready to Read, Ready to Learn." Her work has been widely covered by the press. In 1999, she co-authored The Scientist in the Crib: Minds, Brains, and How Children Learn (Morrow Press)."
http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/news/meetings/02/earlylanguage/kuhl.asp

2. “Smounds” Delicious! Smell and Sound Converge in a Little-Known Part of the Brain
"Recent NIDCD-sponsored research shows that cells in a part of the brain called the olfactory tubercle not only discriminate odors -- they also respond to sound. Scientists found that 65 percent of tubercle cells were activated by at least one of five odors. In the same area, about 20 percent of cells were activated by an audio tone. Further, 29 percent of the cells had either an enhanced or suppressed response to different mixes of odors and tones, depending on whether or not the tone was present with the odor. This discovery may provide the first neural evidence for a sensory crossover in the brain where smell and sound converge. It could also help explain clinical reports of sound-smell synesthesia (in which someone “smells” sounds), as well as the ability to relate auditory pitch with specific odors. It also brings to light a relatively unexplored area of the brain that could play a key role in conditions which are accompanied by disorders of sensory processing, such as schizophrenia and Alzheimer’s disease."
http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/news/releases/10/04_19_10.htm

Also, I would like to mention if someone is experiencing symptoms of synesthesia then he/she should consult a doctor.

I realize that I have another topic on another forum. Hope to return to that tomorrow. I have to admit I like it hanging up there.

 

[rhody]

2. “Smounds” Delicious! Smell and Sound Converge in a Little-Known Part of the Brain
"Recent NIDCD-sponsored research shows that cells in a part of the brain called the olfactory tubercle not only discriminate odors -- they also respond to sound. Scientists found that 65 percent of tubercle cells were activated by at least one of five odors. In the same area, about 20 percent of cells were activated by an audio tone. Further, 29 percent of the cells had either an enhanced or suppressed response to different mixes of odors and tones, depending on whether or not the tone was present with the odor. This discovery may provide the first neural evidence for a sensory crossover in the brain where smell and sound converge. It could also help explain clinical reports of sound-smell synesthesia (in which someone “smells” sounds), as well as the ability to relate auditory pitch with specific odors. It also brings to light a relatively unexplored area of the brain that could play a key role in conditions which are accompanied by disorders of sensory processing, such as schizophrenia and Alzheimer’s disease."
http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/news/releases/10/04_19_10.htm

Also, I would like to mention if someone is experiencing symptoms of synesthesia then he/she should consult a doctor.

I realize that I have another topic on another forum. Hope to return to that tomorrow. I have to admit I like it hanging up there.

VOM,

Sound, smell convergence, I understand what you are saying 65% of cells respond to one of 5 odors, and about 1/3rd of those same cells respond to audio, and that 29% had enhanced/suppressed to a mix of smell and sound, which explains the "crossover effect". I fully get that. I have a few questions, first the short finding in the link provided was done by: National Institute on Deafness and Other Communication Disorders (NIDCD), and I believe on a population of test subjects which which may include non-synesthetes and synesthetes alike. How do we know if they were synesthetes or not unless they were tested independently for smell/sound synesthesia before taking the test with results presented here ?

I will answer your question by asking another, you said, " I would like to mention if someone is experiencing symptoms of synesthesia then he/she should consult a doctor." to which I respond, why don't you ask waht or chi meson who are following this thread if they feel they need to see a doctor about their form of synesthesia, and if it in any way inhibits their normal daily lives ?

Lastly, you said, "It also brings to light a relatively unexplored area of the brain that could play a key role in conditions which are accompanied by disorders of sensory processing, such as schizophrenia and Alzheimer’s disease." I don't know how having sound/smell synesthesia correlates to having schizophrenia or alzheimer's disease. I would like to see hard evidence, in the absence of which I would tend to doubt it.

I am not a research scientist but do not believe that the most common forms of synesthesia are "disorders". See quote from zooby in https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2723961&postcount=153" above:

Since synesthesia is not considered to be a pathological condition requiring treatment, I suspect there's probably no urgency about consensus on criteria. Also, it's only been seriously researched for a pretty short time so I'd suppose all the researchers want to keep things open ended until more is known.

Rhody...

 

[Rasalhague]

Hey, cool, a synaesthesia thread!

I have fixed colour associations for letters, numbers, days, months, compass directions and the concepts of left and right. I associate triangles, squares etc. with the colour corresponding to the number of their sides. Like Waht, my A is yellow. My B is a very dark maroon. But we differ on C. Mine is light green.

When I look at a page of writing and I’m not particularly thinking about the individual letters, I don’t see bright and distinct colours superimposed on each letter. But as soon as I let my attention drift from the meaning to the shapes of the letters, I can’t help becoming aware of their “natural” colours: not projected over the real colours in a way that blots out the real colours with imagined ones, but somehow “present together with” the real colours in my mind’s eye, sometimes more strongly present than at other times.

I’m probably not explaining it very well, but I hope my clumsiness of expression doesn’t make it sound too exotic or ineffably mysterious! It’s similar to the way I can picture a scene from memory or imagine something while looking at a real scene without getting the two mixed up, except that the real letters localise the colours somehow, and these colour associations are regular, automatic and spontaneous, compared to the freeform nature of other kinds of associations. If I think of a letter without looking at one, it tends to have its own synaesthetic colour by default, especially if I only think of a fairly abstract idea of the letter without imagining an example of it written down, in which case I can picture it how I choose, although I’ll probably still have a lingering impression of its synaesthetic colour.
For me, yellow is an aspect or attribute of A, part of its nature, and a blue A is an A in disguise! An A in drag?! When I think of the idea now, I have to make a conscious effort to banish the impression of yellow, otherwise saying “a blue A” creates a similar visual impression to “a blue yellow”--I see both colours.

If I need two Greek letters to represent angles, I prefer not to use the traditional theta and phi, as these are both a smoky blue colour, albeit theta a little lighter than the pigeon-blue phi. Alpha and beta, which--like most of the Greek alphabet--have the same colours as their Roman counterparts make a much better contrast. (I should say my first language is English.) A while ago I watched a video--The Mechanical Universe?--that showed electrons as blue and protons as red, the opposite of the colours I associate with the letters E and P. I found this mildly distracting; it meant I had to concentrate slightly harder. It just felt like they were the “wrong” colours. Other than that sort of thing, it’s no trouble.
These colour associations can be handy for recalling numbers or letters, although occasionally if I’m trying to remember a name, say, I might guess it begins with a K when really it begins with T, which are slightly different shades of dark green. “Oh, T,” I think when I find out, “well, I knew it was something green...”

*

My first memory of these associations is from when I was about six and writing on the cover of a school project, being careful to use the right coloured crayon, or the best match, for each letter. I didn’t think there was anything exceptional about this. I didn’t think much about it, and it wasn’t till I was 16 that it occurred to me to ask whether other people had a similar experience. My siblings do. My parents don’t. My siblings have different associations for letters, numbers etc. to me. I first heard the word synaesthesia when I was 19. I never knew there was a word for it till then.

I haven’t followed up on many of the links yet, but I was particularly intrigued by the abstract of Simner et al. (2008) ‘Non-random associations of graphemes to colours in synaesthetic and non-synaesthetic populations’, Cognitive Neuropsychology 22:8 [ http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all?content=10.1080/02643290500200122
]. One of the first things I did when I got to thinking about these associations, was to collect lists from people of their colour associations, and the few I got seemed pretty random on casual inspection. I don’t think I really realized, at the time, that not everyone has a special fixed set of associations. I just assumed at first that everyone had it, more or less--which undermined the exercise a bit.

*

I have strong individual colour associations for each of the single digits, and ten is a clear amber colour, eleven is white like 1, and 12 is a paler, more muted blue than two. Beyond that, the colour of the number depends on those of the digits it’s made of. I was intrigued by the mention from Rhody’s anonymous correspondent in #175 of “letter/number-color-gender” as I also think of numbers as having gender. Some are more sharply distinguished in this way than others. By default, I think of odd numbers as female, but there are some exceptions that are male, and some that could be either. (I’m male myself.) When I was 7 or 8, I used to draw comics in which all the characters were numbers and had their own personalities.

Sadly I’m not aware of any convenient encoding of sophisticated mathematical relationships in my colours for numbers, such as Daniel Tammet describes. I don’t have any special connection such as Waht mentioned between numbers and their squares. When I read StarkRG’s comments on the first page of this thread about adding colours, I was all ready to say it didn’t work like that for me, but weirdly, when I got to thinking about it, I noticed the following correspondences:

3+4=7
RED+YELLOW=ORANGE

2+4=6
BLUE+YELLOW=GREY-GREEN

2+3=5
BLUE+RED=VERY DARK BLUE/BLACK/PURPLE

Oh, and arguably, 3+3+3=9 (RED+RED+RED=DARK RED), if you think of three as a translucent liquid like wine getting darker as more of it is poured into a glass. Which is nice... but in general, the sum of my colours is not the colour of my sums!

When it comes to whole words, with me too, as with Waht, the colour of the initial letter usually predominates. My first, quickest, strongest, readiest association for colour words such as RED, GREEN, BLUE depends on the meaning. That’s the association I have when I just glance at the word or think of it as a whole without paying much attention. But as I look now at the letters I’ve just typed, paying more attention to them, I can’t help but “see” the colours of individual letters emerging.

R, yellow
E, reddish orange
D, black

G, dark, greyish brown
R, yellow
E, reddish orange
E, reddish orange
N, dark red

B, dark maroon
L, white
U, dark grey
E, reddish orange

I suppose it’s a bit like looking at a wire-frame drawing of a cube and seeing one corner as alternately concave or convex, I can switch perspectives by either focusing on the word as a whole, or considering its letters. That said, writing them all out vertically like this does bring out the colours of the individual letters more and make it harder to see picture the colour of the word as a whole without the colours of the letters intruding.

*

Sometimes when I’m on the verge of falling asleep, I’ll either experience a small muscle twitch or hear some small real noise, such as a creak or a click, which triggers a very short flash of visual experience, most often like a burst of TV snow.

I often have coloured reveries while listening to music, but in a freeform and voluntary way. I don’t know anything technical about music, and I don’t have colour associations with particular notes, apart from their letter names, but I do have a looser tendency to think of high notes as light, bright, small, sharp and cold/hot, while low notes are dark and big and warm. (But I don’t think that’s uncommon.) Some music gives me tingles [ http://www.cogsci.msu.edu/DSS/2008-2009/Huron/HuronFrisson.pdf ].

I like to speculate: if this smell, sound etc. was a colour or texture... But again, that's a voluntary and playful thing for fun and curiosity, and not like the automatic associations I have between colours and things like letters. Not that they aren’t fun and curious too!

 

[ViewsofMars]

"

VOM,

Sound, smell convergence, I understand what you are saying 65% of cells respond to one of 5 odors, and about 1/3rd of those same cells respond to audio, and that 29% had enhanced/suppressed to a mix of smell and sound, which explains the "crossover effect". I fully get that. I have a few questions, first the short finding in the link provided was done by: National Institute on Deafness and Other Communication Disorders (NIDCD), and I believe on a population of test subjects which which may include non-synesthetes and synesthetes alike. How do we know if they were synesthetes or not unless they were tested independently for smell/sound synesthesia before taking the test with results presented here ?

"

Rhody, you can call me Mars. It's a nickname given to me by a very famous scientist. The handle I use "ViewsofMars" means Observations (Views=Observations so I used it since it was a shorter word) of Mars. And, I don't think you do understand. I NEVER said, "65%..."


"

I will answer your question by asking another, you said, " I would like to mention if someone is experiencing symptoms of synesthesia then he/she should consult a doctor." to which I respond, why don't you ask waht or chi meson who are following this thread if they feel they need to see a doctor about their form of synesthesia, and if it in any way inhibits their normal daily lives ?

"

I don't need to ask waht or chi meson. I'm following house rules here on Physics Forums - Forum: Medical Sciences due to the fact that synesthesia is considered to be a medical - communication disorder. You can review all that scientific research I have presented. If anyone has symptoms and are wondering what is happening then obviously they should consult his/her doctor for evaluation.

"

Lastly, you said, "It also brings to light a relatively unexplored area of the brain that could play a key role in conditions which are accompanied by disorders of sensory processing, such as schizophrenia and Alzheimer’s disease." I don't know how having sound/smell synesthesia correlates to having schizophrenia or alzheimer's disease. I would like to see hard evidence, in the absence of which I would tend to doubt it.

"

Again I must repeat to you, Rhody, I did not say, "It also brings..."

"

I am not a research scientist but do not believe that the most common forms of synesthesia are "disorders". See quote from zooby in https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2723961&postcount=153" above: [review post #244]


Rhody...

"

Yes, I realize you aren't a research scientist. Member zooby talks a lot. I support the The National Institute on Deafness and Other Communication Disorders -"The National Institutes of Health—The Nation's Medical Research Agency—includes 27 institutes and centers and is a component of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. It is the primary federal agency for conducting and supporting basic, clinical and translational medical research, and it investigates the causes, treatments and cures for both common and rare diseases."

I'll move onto another topic. I've provided enough information between this page and the previous one.

P.S. Welcome Rasalhague. Thanks for sharing.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Fuzzy,

and

This is very cool stuff, a further parsing, identification, localization, association and labeling of the synesthesia experience. So far, we recognize, upper, lower, projector, associator, implicit (not experienced but showing activation on scans), explicit (experienced and reported), bi-directional, bottom up (perceptual), involvement of early pre-attentive processes, involvement in later attentive processes, possible cross-activation, possible simultaneous activation, possible cross tuning model.

Crap, I gave myself a headache trying to condense it. I am sure I missed some descriptions ! lol. It must be the computer science nerd in me trying to reduce all of it into data structures. You can see what I am trying to do here, take a step back, condense, consolidate.



Rhody...

Thanks Rhody, you mentioned some things that really interest me.

There do seem many variations, and I really appreciate the condensation and will try to add to that myself, (of course, these are not necessarily all exclusive)- rare/not rare (e.g. number/spatial forms), congenital/acquired (e.g. cortical plasticity), sensory/conceptual or innate/ emotional (personification etc.), individual/universal (e.g. Dehaene’s SNARC, kiki-Bouba, Day’s take on Berlin and Kay’s colour theory- http://web.mit.edu/synesthesia/www/trends.html
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all?content=10.1080/02643290500200122), probably more, and also, terms- “To date, a plethora of terms have been used in the context of crossmodal research (‘heteromodal’, ‘multimodal’, ‘intersensory’, ‘polysensory’, ‘multisensory’, ‘amodal’, ‘supramodal’, ‘modality-specific’, ‘unimodal’, etc.).-2001
http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/11/12/1110


By the way, I didn’t manage to sign myself into the site to read your link ( Multiple dimensions in bi-directional synesthesia )
about bi-directional dimensions, and found another from 2007-
http://www.apn.psy.unibe.ch/unibe/philhuman/psy/apn/content/e5616/e5621/e6314/e6342/files6343/Meier_Rothen_2007_ger.pdf
It states that a unidirectional colour experience occurred at a subjective level, but a bimodal concurrence existed at a performance level. Only associator synaesthetes were tested. Is that similar?

 

[fuzzyfelt]

I have been trying to find accurate graphics and or videos where the "normal" five senses (in a non-senesthetic individual) are thought to be processed for perspective. So far haven't come up with a good set of graphs and/or videos to address this. It would be nice to have for discussion and reference. I will keep looking.

Rhody...

I don't believe there is total agreement about these "normal" five senses, and more,
given this thread, you may need to be even more precise about what is the “ normal” senses you are looking for :).

To elaborate, my selection may be biased because this is what I’ve been looking at, but this more typical mingling of senses has been called ubiquitous, with an explosion of research away from the traditional view of isolated modes, or-

“Indeed, the multisensory nature of most, possibly all, of the neocortex forces us to abandon the notion that the senses ever operate independently during real-world
cognition.”

( http://webscript.princeton.edu/~asifg/publications/pdfs/Ghazanfar & Schroeder 2006.pdf
http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/11/12/1110
http://ukpmc.ac.uk/classic/articlerender.cgi?accid=PMC2427054 )

 

[fuzzyfelt]

I'll make it fast since I have a project to finish up. I think my last two postings from the previous page provided valuable information, especially "A Whole-Genome Scan and Fine-Mapping Linkage Study of Auditory-Visual Synesthesia Reveals Evidence of Linkage to Chromosomes 2q24, 5q33, 6p12, and 12p12."

This has been linked to before in this thread, in post #169, and discussed a bit, for example, in post #173, if interested.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Hey, cool, a synaesthesia thread!...

Thanks for the fantastic post!



And thanks for the fantastic links!