News If East Germany Could Secure Their Border So Can America

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Senate candidate Joe Miller compared U.S. border security to the Berlin Wall, suggesting that if East Germany could secure its borders, the U.S. should be able to do the same to combat illegal immigration. This comparison sparked debate, with critics arguing that the Berlin Wall symbolized oppression, while a U.S. border fence would aim to prevent illegal entry. Some participants noted the impracticalities of building a wall given the vast and varied terrain of the U.S.-Mexico border. Others highlighted that a fence might serve more as a psychological barrier than a complete solution, acknowledging that people will still find ways to cross. The discussion reflects ongoing tensions and differing views on immigration policy and border security in the U.S.
  • #31
Well we COULD just get rid of our welfare state, that'd be a large deterrent for illegals thinking of coming here.

Honestly, for the millions who probably are here, here's my solution:

1) Register with us right now
2) You will be allowed to reside here and given permanent resident status
3) You will NEVER get to become a US citizen, you broke our laws
4) *Many* more people will be allowed to immigrate into the US and get green cards, visas, and permanent resident status
5) The number of people granted citizenship per year remains the same.
6) Anyone else who comes in after date XYZ and is illegal WILL be immediately deported upon discovery of them being here. It is going to be very easy to legally move here, but still difficult to become a citizen.
 
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  • #32
Barwick said:
3) You will NEVER get to become a US citizen, you broke our laws

I think if we could figure out how to stop the large numbers of illegal immirants crossing the border, that it would be fine to grant the ones already here citizenship. I mean they're here now, they are not leaving. The problem is granting them citizenship with the border open.
 
  • #33
Barwick said:
1) Register with us right now
2) You will be allowed to reside here and given permanent resident status
3) You will NEVER get to become a US citizen, you broke our laws
4) *Many* more people will be allowed to immigrate into the US and get green cards, visas, and permanent resident status
5) The number of people granted citizenship per year remains the same.
6) Anyone else who comes in after date XYZ and is illegal WILL be immediately deported upon discovery of them being here. It is going to be very easy to legally move here, but still difficult to become a citizen.

Wouldn't it be more fun to just put you all on reservations and force you to run casinos and make things from beads for the tourists?
 
  • #34
it would be easy enough to rectify. just do what we're doing for Afghanistan. go in, kill the bad guys, install a new government, and keep the bodies out of the press.
 
  • #35
As others have said, the Berlin Wall was built to keep people in, the goal of the fence on the southern US border is to keep people out. The symbolism of this difference as pertains to the nature of the US vs E. Germany is obvious.

The goal of the fence on the southern border is to stem the large flow of illegals, on the order of http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d06770.pdf" , not to be relatively speaking air tight as was the Berlin Wall. A southern fence would be a huge success if reduced the illegal stampede to even tens of thousands per year, and a double fence is completely capable of doing so. There's evidence coming in now from the areas with good fencing showing the fence works - San Diego and parts of Texas.
NPR said:
Before the fence was built, all that separated that stretch of Mexico from California was a single strand of cable that demarcated the international border.
[...]
"It was an area that was out of control," Henry says. "There were over 100,000 aliens crossing through this area a year."

Today, Henry is assistant chief of the Border Patrol's San Diego sector. He says apprehensions here are down 95 percent, from 100,000 a year to 5,000 a year, largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double — and in some places, triple — fencing.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5323928

Apparently one person can use a twenty foot latter to scale a fence, but not so fast for one million over a double fence. Build the fence, and I suspect the country will gladly go along with immigration reform for the millions already in the country.
 
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  • #36
mheslep said:
Apparently one person can use a twenty foot latter to scale a fence, but not one million over a double fence. Build the fence, and I suspect the country will gladly go along with immigration reform for the millions already in the country.

This seems very reasonable and I agree it would make the idea of amnesty more acceptable if we believed that the flood of illegals was effectively diminished. I don't understand the resistance to building a fence. There is a lot of sarcasm about the effectiveness on this forum.

Noone blames illegals for the want to come here. That's not the argument. It's unreasonable to me for just anyone to walk to a neighboring country and take up permanent residence without the permission of its government. There is an orderly system of immigration to any country. Why should the US be an exception?
 
  • #37
drankin said:
This seems very reasonable and I agree it would make the idea of amnesty more acceptable if we believed that the flood of illegals was effectively diminished. I don't understand the resistance to building a fence. There is a lot of sarcasm about the effectiveness on this forum.

Noone blames illegals for the want to come here. That's not the argument. It's unreasonable to me for just anyone to walk to a neighboring country and take up permanent residence without the permission of its government. There is an orderly system of immigration to any country. Why should the US be an exception?
Agreed.
 
  • #38
drankin said:
this seems very reasonable and i agree it would make the idea of amnesty more acceptable if we believed that the flood of illegals was effectively diminished. I don't understand the resistance to building a fence. There is a lot of sarcasm about the effectiveness on this forum.

Noone blames illegals for the want to come here. That's not the argument. It's unreasonable to me for just anyone to walk to a neighboring country and take up permanent residence without the permission of its government. There is an orderly system of immigration to any country. Why should the us be an exception?

qft.
 
  • #39
You guys know we already have a fence and that in 2006 Congress has set aside another $2.7 billion for the fence?

I posted pictures of the fence earlier. Can char, drankin, mheslep, etc... explain what they are talking about? I'm not quite clear. Is it the small unfinished parts that are still to be completed?

US-Mexico border fence almost complete

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/01/27/20090127border-fence0127-ON.html

I believe the rest of us were commenting on the nutty politician saying we need a Berlin Wall type fence.
 
  • #40
I'm just quoting people. I don't really have a stake in this issue at all... I just quote what sounds good.
 
  • #41
Evo said:
You guys know we already have a fence and that in 2006 Congress has set aside another $2.7 billion for the fence?

I posted pictures of the fence earlier. Can char, drankin, mheslep, etc... explain what they are talking about? I'm not quite clear. Is it the small unfinished parts that are still to be completed?

US-Mexico border fence almost complete

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/01/27/20090127border-fence0127-ON.html
The US - Mexico border is more than 2000 miles long. As the article indicates, not even a third has been built (the title is misleading). I believe the current US administration is slow walking the remainder.

Edit:
I believe the rest of us were commenting on the nutty politician saying we need a Berlin Wall type fence.
1. Miller's not a nutty politician; http://joemiller.us/about/bio" , one of the best rookies in the country.
2. I don't know what Miller said, as we don't have any reliable source in the thread (the quote comes via some http://whatdoino-steve.blogspot.com/" ).
3. The quote, even if accurate:
Blogger quote said:
East Germany was very, very able to reduce the flow…Now, obviously, other things there were involved. We have the capacity to, as a great nation, obviously to secure our border. If East Germany could do, we could it
Does not lead me to believe Miller believes the US needs "a Berlin Wall type fence" complete with shooting people in "cold blood."
 
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  • #42
Would right-wingers like Meg Whitman (who employed an illegal alien as her housekeeper) roll back the xenophobia and support an expanded program that fast-tracks gainfully-employed immigrants toward residency status and eventual citizenship? Illegals are being used as a political football, and the "just say NO" stance is not working.

My father's family came here from Ireland, and they faced resistance. My mother's family came here from Canada and they faced resistance. The KKK was very popular in Maine in the 1920's, not because there were lots of black people to rail against, but because there were Catholic immigrants from Ireland and Canada to scapegoat. Even 30 years on, when I was a child, there was still discrimination against us. It was very common to hear people slurring immigrants as Micks and Frogs, usually preceded by adjectives like "stupid", "dumb", etc.

My mother's father and her aunts and uncles never got fluent in English, since they came here as adults and did not have a lot of productive contact with English-speakers. My mother didn't teach me French (though I picked up a lot from other family members) because she was pitched into school in the first grade knowing not a word of English. When she graduated HS, she was the Salutatorian, but she had a long hard path to get there, starting in grade school. I see similar situations with Hispanics, and see hate and fear-mongering being used as tools to emphasize the "otherness" of immigrants.

It may seem odd, but agriculture in Maine (the jobs that require lots of hand-labor, such as dairy operations, orchard-work, and seasonal crops like broccoli) would be very expensive and possibly unsustainable without a migrant work-force. A large local dairy farm has a work-force comprised primarily of documented immigrants that live, eat, and work on the premises. The sandwich counter at the local grocery had to start carrying jalapeno peppers as sandwich ingredients to keep the Mexicans happy when they splurged on take-out. They work hard and send their money home to their families. Why can't they earn a shot a citizenship and bring their loved ones here?
 
  • #43
Char. Limit said:
I'm just quoting people. I don't really have a stake in this issue at all... I just quote what sounds good.
Well, you shouldn't do that. If you don't know if what they said is correct or have no information to add, you should not post.
 
  • #44
Evo said:
You guys know we already have a fence and that in 2006 Congress has set aside another $2.7 billion for the fence?

I posted pictures of the fence earlier. Can char, drankin, mheslep, etc... explain what they are talking about? I'm not quite clear. Is it the small unfinished parts that are still to be completed?

US-Mexico border fence almost complete

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/01/27/20090127border-fence0127-ON.html

I believe the rest of us were commenting on the nutty politician saying we need a Berlin Wall type fence.

The way I understand it, it's not a continual fence. I can't find any definitive news but the project is only for 670 miles of the 2000 miles of border.
 
  • #45
  • #46
mheslep said:
As others have said, the Berlin Wall was built to keep people in, the goal of the fence on the southern US border is to keep people out. The symbolism of this difference as pertains to the nature of the US vs E. Germany is obvious.
It's also technically rather easier. The land 20km upto the border was restricted needing a special permit to enter, the last km upto the fence needed an armed guard to enter - even to farm land near the fence.
In addition the secret police were very active in searching out anybody who showed any interest in the wall or in any aspect of the west.
Building a wall to keep people out is considerably more difficult.
 
  • #47
turbo-1 said:
Would right-wingers like Meg Whitman (who employed an illegal alien as her housekeeper) roll back the xenophobia and support an expanded program that fast-tracks gainfully-employed immigrants toward residency status and eventual citizenship? Illegals are being used as a political football, and the "just say NO" stance is not working.

My father's family came here from Ireland, and they faced resistance. My mother's family came here from Canada and they faced resistance. The KKK was very popular in Maine in the 1920's, not because there were lots of black people to rail against, but because there were Catholic immigrants from Ireland and Canada to scapegoat. Even 30 years on, when I was a child, there was still discrimination against us. It was very common to hear people slurring immigrants as Micks and Frogs, usually preceded by adjectives like "stupid", "dumb", etc.

My mother's father and her aunts and uncles never got fluent in English, since they came here as adults and did not have a lot of productive contact with English-speakers. My mother didn't teach me French (though I picked up a lot from other family members) because she was pitched into school in the first grade knowing not a word of English. When she graduated HS, she was the Salutatorian, but she had a long hard path to get there, starting in grade school. I see similar situations with Hispanics, and see hate and fear-mongering being used as tools to emphasize the "otherness" of immigrants.

It may seem odd, but agriculture in Maine (the jobs that require lots of hand-labor, such as dairy operations, orchard-work, and seasonal crops like broccoli) would be very expensive and possibly unsustainable without a migrant work-force. A large local dairy farm has a work-force comprised primarily of documented immigrants that live, eat, and work on the premises. The sandwich counter at the local grocery had to start carrying jalapeno peppers as sandwich ingredients to keep the Mexicans happy when they splurged on take-out. They work hard and send their money home to their families. Why can't they earn a shot a citizenship and bring their loved ones here?

I have no problem with the illegals whom come here to work and make a decent living, it is the ones who come here and bring crime and drugs, and/or to live off of the social welfare state.

The other problem with this is that the social welfare state, when applied to groups like illegals, prevents them from assimilating into society. As you mentioned, all ethnicities and cultures ran into trouble upon first coming to America and no one really like one another. The Irish lived in their own areas, the Jews lived in their own areas, the Italians in their own areas, the Chinese in their own, etc...and even among the Italians there was separation between the ones from northern Italy and southern Italy, same with Jews of different cultures, etc...what unified everyone by the second and third generation however was learning the English language and being able to function in American society, as there was no social welfare state, so they had to find jobs and work, and thus today you'll find many ethnicities all living amongst one another (although even today in some areas this is finicky, for example in NYC there is tension in areas between Jews and blacks).

But this won't happen unless the immigrants have an incentive to learn English and assimilate. Which means they need to come to work. If they come to live on welfare, there is no need to learn English and become a productive member of society.
 
  • #48
drankin said:
The way I understand it, it's not a continual fence. I can't find any definitive news but the project is only for 670 miles of the 2000 miles of border.
The BBC had a map back in 2006, various fences appeared to cover more than half of the border. Some of those fences may no longer exist. I think the 670 miles is the "new fence".
 
  • #49
I am a female of Mexican descent living in what many call the "hood" and I see the effects of illegal immigration on a daily basis every time I go home from college. I really respect what a lot of you who posted here have to say. I am very divided in my opinion of immigration policy and what should be done about it. One of the problems I face directly is the crime rate in my neighborhood that some attribute to our high illegal immigrant population. I agree that something needs to be done about it, I mean I've been followed home by a truck full of guys who couldn't even heckle me in English. There is a joke someone I know made about building a fence, "Yeah if they choose to build a fence, who are they going to get to build it?"
 
  • #50
Desi_M said:
I am a female of Mexican descent living in what many call the "hood" and I see the effects of illegal immigration on a daily basis every time I go home from college. I really respect what a lot of you who posted here have to say. I am very divided in my opinion of immigration policy and what should be done about it. One of the problems I face directly is the crime rate in my neighborhood that some attribute to our high illegal immigrant population. I agree that something needs to be done about it, I mean I've been followed home by a truck full of guys who couldn't even heckle me in English. There is a joke someone I know made about building a fence, "Yeah if they choose to build a fence, who are they going to get to build it?"

As far as who builds the fence, the same people that already built 1/3 of it already. Your joke suggests that Americans won't do manual labor or hard work. Looking at what our country has done in the past and is doing now, it really isn't that funny.
 
  • #51
turbo-1 said:
They work hard and send their money home to their families. Why can't they earn a shot a citizenship and bring their loved ones here?

They can earn a shot at permanent resident status. But being a citizen is not something people are guaranteed. As I said before, I suggest the following:

1) Everyone here must register with us by XYZ date. If they don't, anyone found here undocumented will be deported, period.
2) Grant permanent residency to those who registered, are already here being productive, and haven't committed felonies.
3) Nobody who is here illegally currently can *ever* become a citizen unless they immediately go back to their home country upon registration with us, and begin the process of citizenship like everyone else. Their alternative is remaining here as a permanent resident for life with no chance of citizenship (they did break a legitimate law).
4) The children of those permanent residents can become citizens upon turning 18, after going through the same process (but not the same quota limitations) as other immigrants wishing to become citizens.
 
  • #52
Americans will do manual labor, I'm not suggesting that they won't. Trust me, I know many American citizens who jump on the chance. From what I've experienced, sometimes the will to work isn't enough to get them the job. Americans are not lazy, but Americans have to eat and provide for themselves and their families. People hire illegals because they will work for a lot less, it's not right and it's not fair, but that's what happens. Citizens pay taxes, have to pay for medical care, and illegal immigrants don't. Citizens have to pay the cost of living in the United States, illegal immigrants pay a lot less to live here. That is the reality. An illegal immigrant can live off what little they're getting paid, and American in most cases can't. And when it comes to hiring in El Paso, Laredo, and The Valley, there is a huge illegal immigrant population that will work for what ever their employers want to pay.

My father worked in construction and he is an American, but the truth is, it wasn't paying enough to get him out of his brother's house and back to the same city as his daughter, so he went back to school. Now he's a business owner, he hires US citizens, and they are a lot more expensive than the illegal that walks in the door who says, "I'll do anything."
 
  • #53
Desi_M said:
People hire illegals because they will work for a lot less, it's not right and it's not fair, but that's what happens.

Why isn't it fair? If they're willing to do more work per dollar, why not hire them?
 
  • #54
CRGreathouse said:
Why isn't it fair? If they're willing to do more work per dollar, why not hire them?
As a software engineer making six figures, I get nervous looking at the illegal alien sitting in the next cubicle getting less than minimum wage for the same work.
 
  • #55
CRGreathouse said:
Why isn't it fair? If they're willing to do more work per dollar, why not hire them?

Because that would take away a union job!

oops, did I say that? :)

Honestly? It's because of government protectionism that's artificially inflating wages in this country, and therefore artificially inflating the prices of every product we purchase. This in turn makes workers demand higher "minimum wage" (what a farce), which raises wages again, causing increases in price, and the cycle continues.
 
  • #56
Jimmy Snyder said:
As a software engineer making six figures, I get nervous looking at the illegal alien sitting in the next cubicle getting less than minimum wage for the same work.

I do the same sort of work but make 1 digit less. Are you worried about me taking your job?

Presumably you're well-paid because you're good. I stopped worrying about competition from India when I saw the quality of the work done there. I'm sure over time it will rise, but so will (and have!) their salaries.
 
  • #57
CRGreathouse said:
I do the same sort of work but make 1 digit less. Are you worried about me taking your job?
No, but I spoke with the other guy and he said he was worried that his job would be outsourced back to Mexico. If they build a fence he won't be able to get home.
 
  • #58
Jimmy Snyder said:
No, but I spoke with the other guy and he said he was worried that his job would be outsourced back to Mexico. If they build a fence he won't be able to get home.

I'm pretty sure he can just walk through a border crossing. They don't seem to mind people going that direction.
 
  • #59
drankin said:
I'm pretty sure he can just walk through a border crossing. They don't seem to mind people going that direction.
Reminds me of this article a member posted.

Illegal Immigrants Returning To Mexico For American Jobs

Still, the danger is very real. When 31-year-old illegal Arizona resident Ignacio Jimenez sought employment at an American plant in Mexico, he was shot at by Mexican border guards as he attempted to illegally enter the country of his citizenship, pursued by U.S. immigration officials who thought he might be entering the country illegally, and fired upon again by a second group of U.S. Border Patrol agents charged with keeping valuable table-busing and food-delivery personnel inside American borders.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/illegal-immigrants-returning-to-mexico-for-america,1951/
 

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