News If East Germany Could Secure Their Border So Can America

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Senate candidate Joe Miller compared U.S. border security to the Berlin Wall, suggesting that if East Germany could secure its borders, the U.S. should be able to do the same to combat illegal immigration. This comparison sparked debate, with critics arguing that the Berlin Wall symbolized oppression, while a U.S. border fence would aim to prevent illegal entry. Some participants noted the impracticalities of building a wall given the vast and varied terrain of the U.S.-Mexico border. Others highlighted that a fence might serve more as a psychological barrier than a complete solution, acknowledging that people will still find ways to cross. The discussion reflects ongoing tensions and differing views on immigration policy and border security in the U.S.
  • #91
Galteeth said:
But the American dollar can purchase more in Mexico. A Mexican working in America is usually not earning enough to have a high standard of living, in America.. But when they send their American dollars back to their families in Mexico, it does earn them a high standard of living. I have spoken to many illegal immigrants about this topic, and a lot of them hate the long hours and demeaning work they do in America, but they explain that their families back home are wealthy by local standards. Of course this is not the case for all illegal immigrants, but it does seem to be a common trend.


Again, this isn't because of the strength of the American dollar vs the peso. It's because America is far wealthier as a nation so people get paid more here
 
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  • #92
skeptic2 said:
I am not advocating amnesty for illegal workers. However, once granted amnesty, why would they be willing to work cheaper than non-immigrant workers?

Historically immigrants have always been willing to work for less. The Irish and the blacks and other ethnic groups used to have riots where they battled one another over this.

While I don't agree that in general a minimum wage hurts small businesses more than large ones I do agree with much of what you wrote.

A small business cannot absorb the higher costs from a minimum wage in the way a big business can. Same thing with regulations. Sometimes big businesses in an industry will push for heavy regulations because the compliance costs will wipe out their competitors.

I'm not saying create a minimum wage and all small businesses go kaput, that isn't the case, but any kind of extra costs added will hurt smaller businesses moeso.

However we can't think only of the businesses. Some consideration must be given to the workers too and there comes a point below which the low wages hurt the workers more than they help the company.

How is not having a minimum wage "thinking of the businesses" though? The market sets the actual minimum wage, and it is the price of the labor offered by the workers versus what the employers will pay. It isn't the businesses' fault if the wage is set very low for particular forms of labor.

If lower wages were the solution to unemployment I think we would be seeing that now. Someone who has been out of work for 6 or 9 months certainly may be willing to take a job at a cut in pay, but that doesn't seem to be happening. It seems to me that there are fewer jobs being offered to new grads but the offers that are made are made at attractive salaries.

Wages are not being held artificially high right now. They tried this during the Great Depression and it is believed to have held unemployment higher than what it would have been.

Do you think that is still the case? (if it ever was)

If illegals are granted amnesty, and are willing to work for less than current wages, I most certainly think that the unions want the minimum wage in order to price them out of the market. And yes it was the case, read up on the New Deal in particular regarding this.

Yes and one of the labor laws that ended that practice was minimum wage.

What ended that were laws demanding safe working environments, laws giving weekends, laws preventing corporations from demanding you work an assembly line sixteen hours a day with no bathroom breaks even, for seven days a week, etc...
 
  • #93
CAC1001- Historically immigrants have always been willing to work for less. The Irish and the blacks and other ethnic groups used to have riots where they battled one another over this.

IMO, this is not because of their ethinticity, but because they are still used to, or are willing and capable to live at the lower standard of living they had in the countries they emmigrated from. A law that forces immigrants to assimilate to our culture quicker, would do more to raise their wages, than a law that you have to pay them a certain amount, since they would need to make more money to maintain their higher living standards and therefore would demand higher pay themselves, they would also learn the most important part of the equation in getting a raise is they need more skills, making their labor more valuable to their employer and would concentrate on learning those skills needed for advancement instead of blaming others for their willingness to work cheaper.


A small business cannot absorb the higher costs from a minimum wage in the way a big business can. Same thing with regulations. Sometimes big businesses in an industry will push for heavy regulations because the compliance costs will wipe out their competitors.

I don't think any buisiness, big or small, can absorb higher labor costs without hurting their bottom line. Any product can only support a certain level of overhead before the cost of that product needs to increase and any product can only go to a certain level before it will start to lose sales. I do completely agree with your point about regulation though.


How is not having a minimum wage "thinking of the businesses" though? The market sets the actual minimum wage, and it is the price of the labor offered by the workers versus what the employers will pay. It isn't the businesses' fault if the wage is set very low for particular forms of labor.

I think it could be argued that having a minimum wage arbitrarilly increased hurts the workers more than the buisinesses. Say you have a hourly budget for labor of 20 dollars for your product. At a minimum wage of 5$ you can hire 4 workers, if the government, or a union, comes in and says that you need to raise the wage to 6$, you can only afford to pay three workers, or you have to raise the price of your product. If the market will only support the original price you either lose money and go out of buisiness and all workers get hurt, or one worker has to go find another job, if they can.


Wages are not being held artificially high right now. They tried this during the Great Depression and it is believed to have held unemployment higher than what it would have been.

Imo, wages are both being held artificially high and at the same time being held artificially low, through governmental intrusion. For low or unskilled workers the minimum wage is artificially raising their wage above market value, since if the market could naturally support those wages there would be no need for the minimum wage in the first place. For higher skilled workers their wages are being reduced artificially through things like social security, health benefit requirements, unemployment insurance and the like. Employers would not pay more than what an employee is worth to them, so everything in their pay package that is mandated reduces the wage the skilled employee can negotiate.


If illegals are granted amnesty, and are willing to work for less than current wages, I most certainly think that the unions want the minimum wage in order to price them out of the market. And yes it was the case, read up on the New Deal in particular regarding this.

Some of the largest beneficaries of illegals' labor are unions, in my experience unions really don't care if it is an american paying dues or an illegal as long as they get those dues. When I worked in SoCal, the laborers where pretty upfront about their union having a buisiness agent who would help them get fake documents and then send them out to jobs. Unions also have another trick up their sleeve, it is called prevailing wage. It is explained as a wonderful, unselfish thing they do to help non-union workers, the only problem with that explanation, is that without prevailing wage laws, unions would be priced out of the market.


What ended that were laws demanding safe working environments, laws giving weekends, laws preventing corporations from demanding you work an assembly line sixteen hours a day with no bathroom breaks even, for seven days a week, etc...

I am glad you said laws demanding, and not laws creating safe working enviroments. I am not a fan of oversight, since imo, while sounds good it makes matters worse. The best way to regulate anything is undersight. As a worker in a pretty dangerous field, I have noticed that most safety rules(oversight) make workers less safe, whereas having the worker watch out for themselves make them far safer(undersight). One such rule states that overhead powerlines need to have markers to warn workers of the hazard, and I have seen a quite a few different pieces of equipment run into lines because someone or something(wind) had moved the markers, whereas if an employee is taught to watch out for the powerlines and not the markers, accidents are far less likely to happen. Undersight would also work for any market as well. Making the consumer responsible for controlling prices for example, would go a long way to prevent boom and bust housing markets for example. Teaching people to watch out for hazards(like overpriced housing), succeeds far better than trying to eliminate the hazards through oversight and regulation because the world is a dangerous place and no matter how many rules there are hazards still exist. Education allows free choice, oversight does not. I know lots of people that choose to work long hours, to work 7 days a week so they can make more money to buy everything they want, on the otherhand I prefer to keep my expenses as low as possible so I can have all the free time I can possibly afford. Let's leave life choices, employment choices, wage choices up to the individual, not some bureacrat or groups of bureacrats who think they know better what we want or need.
 
  • #94
CAC1001 said:
How is not having a minimum wage "thinking of the businesses" though? The market sets the actual minimum wage, and it is the price of the labor offered by the workers versus what the employers will pay. It isn't the businesses' fault if the wage is set very low for particular forms of labor.

In cosmopolitan areas where there are many businesses and workers are free to migrate between employers there probably wouldn't be a problem. But there are many situations where there is one major employer in a town and the residents either work for that employer or they don’t work. In situations like these the corporation may gradually lower wages and as they do so, the employees become more dependent on those minuscule wages. With lower wages the employees become less able to drive 30 miles to the next town for a different job. The same company in areas where there is more competition may pay its workers double or more than it does in small towns. Is this what you call the market setting the actual minimum wage? Is this what you mean when you say it isn’t the businesses’ fault if the wage is set very low for particular forms of labor?
 
  • #95
Jasongreat said:
I think it could be argued that having a minimum wage arbitrarilly increased hurts the workers more than the buisinesses. Say you have a hourly budget for labor of 20 dollars for your product. At a minimum wage of 5$ you can hire 4 workers, if the government, or a union, comes in and says that you need to raise the wage to 6$, you can only afford to pay three workers, or you have to raise the price of your product. If the market will only support the original price you either lose money and go out of buisiness and all workers get hurt, or one worker has to go find another job, if they can.

If a McDonalds restaurant substantially raises the wages it pays and increases its prices to cover the increase in wages, some customers may start going to Burger King. If however Burger King also has to raise its wages by the same amount as well, the increase probably won’t have much if any affect on sales. Since there are many other factors in the cost of a burger beside wages, the price of the burger won’t have to increase by the same percentage as the percent increase in wages. This means that by virtue of the increase in the minimum wage, someone who formerly couldn’t afford to eat at McDonalds or Burger King now may be able to.

No I’m not suggesting we can legislate wealth by raising the minimum wage but I am suggesting that minimum wage increases cut both ways and only looking at one side is neither fair nor honest.
 
  • #96
Galteeth said:

Fact: The devalued peso made it easier for Mexico to import to the US under Nafta. I won't disagree with that.

The claim is that this was intentionally done for the purposes of letting the US buy cheap goods is made, but not proven in this. The author says that it was politics that let the peso get high, acknowledging that it was going to crash regardless of the effect of NAFTA. The only alleged role that NAFTA plays is that the author claims the peso was held to a high level so that NAFTA could be passed in the US. Overall the paper does little to nothing to support the claim that NAFTA is the difference between whether or not a peso collapse occurs

As a counterpoint
http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj17n3-14.html

A peer reviewed article as opposed to a briefing paper describing how Mexico's credit boom collapse was the cause of the peso devaluation with analogies to other countries which had similar problems. The role that NAFTA plays is simply being part of a politically uncertain situation in 1994 which helped trigger the inevitable collapse
 
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  • #97
Jasongreat said:
IMO, this is not because of their ethinticity, but because they are still used to, or are willing and capable to live at the lower standard of living they had in the countries they emmigrated from. A law that forces immigrants to assimilate to our culture quicker, would do more to raise their wages, than a law that you have to pay them a certain amount, since they would need to make more money to maintain their higher living standards and therefore would demand higher pay themselves, they would also learn the most important part of the equation in getting a raise is they need more skills, making their labor more valuable to their employer and would concentrate on learning those skills needed for advancement instead of blaming others for their willingness to work cheaper.

True. I just meant that historically (at least as far as I know), immigrant labor has always been willing to do more work for less money, until they did become assimilated into society.

I think it could be argued that having a minimum wage arbitrarilly increased hurts the workers more than the buisinesses. Say you have a hourly budget for labor of 20 dollars for your product. At a minimum wage of 5$ you can hire 4 workers, if the government, or a union, comes in and says that you need to raise the wage to 6$, you can only afford to pay three workers, or you have to raise the price of your product. If the market will only support the original price you either lose money and go out of buisiness and all workers get hurt, or one worker has to go find another job, if they can.

Yup, exactly, but this also hurts the business as well if they have to give up employees or raise prices.

Imo, wages are both being held artificially high and at the same time being held artificially low, through governmental intrusion. For low or unskilled workers the minimum wage is artificially raising their wage above market value, since if the market could naturally support those wages there would be no need for the minimum wage in the first place. For higher skilled workers their wages are being reduced artificially through things like social security, health benefit requirements, unemployment insurance and the like. Employers would not pay more than what an employee is worth to them, so everything in their pay package that is mandated reduces the wage the skilled employee can negotiate.

Yup. That is why wages can be declining while incomes can be increasing. I believe part of the reason for declining wages with rising per capita incomes lately as been the rising costs of healthcare.

Some of the largest beneficaries of illegals' labor are unions, in my experience unions really don't care if it is an american paying dues or an illegal as long as they get those dues. When I worked in SoCal, the laborers where pretty upfront about their union having a buisiness agent who would help them get fake documents and then send them out to jobs. Unions also have another trick up their sleeve, it is called prevailing wage. It is explained as a wonderful, unselfish thing they do to help non-union workers, the only problem with that explanation, is that without prevailing wage laws, unions would be priced out of the market.

I see.

I am glad you said laws demanding, and not laws creating safe working enviroments. I am not a fan of oversight, since imo, while sounds good it makes matters worse. The best way to regulate anything is undersight. As a worker in a pretty dangerous field, I have noticed that most safety rules(oversight) make workers less safe, whereas having the worker watch out for themselves make them far safer(undersight). One such rule states that overhead powerlines need to have markers to warn workers of the hazard, and I have seen a quite a few different pieces of equipment run into lines because someone or something(wind) had moved the markers, whereas if an employee is taught to watch out for the powerlines and not the markers, accidents are far less likely to happen. Undersight would also work for any market as well. Making the consumer responsible for controlling prices for example, would go a long way to prevent boom and bust housing markets for example. Teaching people to watch out for hazards(like overpriced housing), succeeds far better than trying to eliminate the hazards through oversight and regulation because the world is a dangerous place and no matter how many rules there are hazards still exist. Education allows free choice, oversight does not. I know lots of people that choose to work long hours, to work 7 days a week so they can make more money to buy everything they want, on the otherhand I prefer to keep my expenses as low as possible so I can have all the free time I can possibly afford. Let's leave life choices, employment choices, wage choices up to the individual, not some bureacrat or groups of bureacrats who think they know better what we want or need.

I agree, although I think certain areas do need regulation, just keep it as light and efficient as possible. But for example we need regulation to make sure toys are not made with lead paint.
 
  • #98
CAC1001 said:
[...]But for example we need regulation to make sure toys are not made with lead paint.
I don't know that regulation is the only way to insure that. To my mind what's needed is information about harm, not necessarily prevention by a far removed third party.
 
  • #99
Office_Shredder said:
Again, this isn't because of the strength of the American dollar vs the peso. It's because America is far wealthier as a nation so people get paid more here

"Paid more" is the same thing. A low end job by American standards is a high end job by Mexican standards. These jobs can possibly afford more material wealth in America then they could in Mexico, but the real difference in "paid more" comes when you compare a mexican working in america and spending his money in mexico versus a mexican working in mexioc and spending his money in mexico. A mexican working in america and spending his money in america is still poor (I am referring to material wealth here.)
 
  • #100
mheslep said:
The distinction you draw there is an arbitrary one of geography, with arbitrary rules: "generally recognized", "should not", "are allowed", etc. By the laws of the US, not all people are allowed to walk down the sidewalk in front of my house. Only people with clothes on, for instance, and only those legally resident in the country may do so. I'd likely object to Kim Jong-il walking down the street.

I do not have any such right, not in the US, any more than I have a right to grab your wallet or conscript your labor for my nefarious ends. Nor do you have any right or leave to act similarly on me. In the US, we hold that all have the right to life, liberty, etc. None of those rights can be preserved without the rule of law, and by extension borders are required within which the law can be enacted and applied by the consent of the governed. No borders, then no rule of law, no rights.

I was referring to the moral basis; obviously I understand the legal basis. The distinction is not arbitrary. One is private space, the other is public. These distinctions are the creation of human values, and I anticipate you will say so are nation states. When I refer to rights, i am obviously talking about my own moral views, not the laws of the US.
The basis for private space is human conception of ownership of place. You can say the people of the US own their country. But the point is that the determination of who is a person of the United states is arbitrary. It is about location of birth. It has nothing to do with value as people, or work done to claim ownership in the lockean sense.
 
  • #101
jarednjames said:
A lot of illegals in Britain work for little more than food and board. They can earn as little as £10 a day.

Doesn't this reinforce my point, as the British currency could buy more in the home country?
 
  • #102
CAC1001 said:
One thing, in order to quote what someone else has written, just write the word "quote" but with brackets ([ ]) around it at the start of the quoted passage, then write "/quote" in brackets at the end. Also, for whole posts, just click the "QUOTE" button in the bottom right-hand corner of a person's post.
America had a large illegal immigrant problem before NAFTA as well. Ronald Reagan granted millions of illegals amnesty.
In that sense, America is helping Mexico through illegals, not hurting it. Illegals come to America to work or for freebies because life there is so terrible. That is also why the Mexican government is against stopping illegal immigration.
The currency imbalance doesn't make it logical for Mexico to produce things and give them to the US, it makes it logical for Americans to buy things that are produced in Mexico if they are of good quality.

The US is the most materially wealthy nation because we produce more than anyone else and are more productive for the most part. We export more than anyone else as well.
I wouldn't say these institutions maintain any global economic order. By that standard, China, South Korea, etc...would still be Third World nations. Also, there wouldn't be efforts by the Third World nations to use things like global warming regulations to transfer wealth from nations like America to themselves.
Japan has a very level of debt. Italy as well (although Italy is near the breaking point).
The Soviet Union was a military superpower as well, but they were never any economic power.
Because Mexico's government is so incredibly corrupt and because Mexico did nothing about the problem of the drug cartels which kept gaining and gaining in power to the point that now they're a major problem.
I don't know much about the connections between the U.S. drug policy and its influence on the drug trade, although that could be part of it.
Minimum wage laws help keep illegal immigrants out I would think, as their purpose is to protect unionize labor. Although I would say repeal them anyway on principle because I believe the minimum wage is a bad thing.

1. The problem has gotten worse since NAFTA.

2. Sort of. Except that the motivated people leave Mexico, making it worse in the long run for the people still there. There will eventually be localized dollar inflation, as dollars sent home chase fewer domestic services. Mexican products are sent to the US as per NAFTA

3. tomato tomato

4. Yes, but the total imports exceed the exports.

5. Generally speaking they do. There are always going to be exceptions and complexities.

6. There has been greater consequence for countries with high debt levels that aren't the US. See Japan's lost decade, and as you pointed out, the severe problems in the "lesser" nations of the european union.7. More or less agreed. I wasn't suggesting being a military power automatically leads to being economically powerful.

8. This is true, but as i pointed out there are other factors such as the war on drugs, motivated mexican workers leaving, NAFTA

9. Quite obviously restricting supply leads to increased profit from those who can sell

10. The last point has been argued extensively by other posters
 
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  • #103
While I agree theat there are many practical problems from illegal immigration, I am with a few others here who say that in general it gives rise to a lot of flag-waving and ethnocenrism/xenophobia.
Something I have always felt - that being bonded to or being loyal to an artificially bounded piece of land because you or your parents/grandparents happened to be born there is just silly. Patriotism is as irrational a religion as Christianity or Islam or Hinduism.

One of the reasons I refused to move to the US ages back when most of my colleagues/friends/peers were doing so, I hated the smugness of some Americans who think they are doing a big favour to the immigrants.
The US has, and always will continue to benefit from immigrants, but obviously the more elite and higher educated ones. There's no charity there, let's be very clear about that.
 
  • #104
CRGreathouse said:
I do the same sort of work but make 1 digit less. Are you worried about me taking your job?

Presumably you're well-paid because you're good. I stopped worrying about competition from India when I saw the quality of the work done there. I'm sure over time it will rise, but so will (and have!) their salaries.
(clearing my throat).
What was that about the quality of work from India ?

Not sure if you have read this recent Economist article.
http://www.economist.com/node/17147648

Yes, we were once cheap labour, but that's changing rapidly.

I apologise for the patriotic note in my post (cant help it, I guess :smile:).
 
  • #105
Galteeth said:
Doesn't this reinforce my point, as the British currency could buy more in the home country?

No it doesn't reinforce your point.

These people are exploited because of their illegal status. They work longer hours in terrible coniditions.

By the time you factor in the cost of clothing and various other necessary requirements, there's not much (if any) change from £50 a week. Remember, this is the same amount as being on basic state benefits in Britain. You can survive on it, barely.

Sending money home isn't an option when you're dealing with such small amounts.

These people came to Britain for a better life and in turn have ended up stuck in a situation they have no hope of escaping. Most that are ferried in illegaly are in debt to those who brought them here by thousands of pounds and have to work to pay it off.
 
  • #106
jarednjames said:
No it doesn't reinforce your point.

These people are exploited because of their illegal status. They work longer hours in terrible coniditions.

By the time you factor in the cost of clothing and various other necessary requirements, there's not much (if any) change from £50 a week. Remember, this is the same amount as being on basic state benefits in Britain. You can survive on it, barely.

Sending money home isn't an option when you're dealing with such small amounts.

These people came to Britain for a better life and in turn have ended up stuck in a situation they have no hope of escaping. Most that are ferried in illegaly are in debt to those who brought them here by thousands of pounds and have to work to pay it off.

I never claimed they weren't being exploited. Where do these immigrants to Britian come from?
 
  • #107
Siv said:
While I agree theat there are many practical problems from illegal immigration, I am with a few others here who say that in general it gives rise to a lot of flag-waving and ethnocenrism/xenophobia.
Something I have always felt - that being bonded to or being loyal to an artificially bounded piece of land because you or your parents/grandparents happened to be born there is just silly. Patriotism is as irrational a religion as Christianity or Islam or Hinduism.

One of the reasons I refused to move to the US ages back when most of my colleagues/friends/peers were doing so, I hated the smugness of some Americans who think they are doing a big favour to the immigrants.
The US has, and always will continue to benefit from immigrants, but obviously the more elite and higher educated ones. There's no charity there, let's be very clear about that.

You hate the smugness of some americans? Your post seems very smug to me. You also said you think patriotism is irrational, then post:

What was that about the quality of work from India ?

Not sure if you have read this recent Economist article.
http://www.economist.com/node/17147648

Yes, we were once cheap labour, but that's changing rapidly.

Seems pretty irrational.

Americans don't have problems with immigrants, we all have immigration in our past, even the native americans emmigrated here. Some of us do have a problem with illegal immigration though, and for good reason, its illegal!

As to the article you provided, good for india, but don't sound the trumpets just yet, you still have plenty of problems in your own country to deal with.
 
  • #108
Galteeth said:
I never claimed they weren't being exploited. Where do these immigrants to Britian come from?

Eastern Europe (non-EU states) and the middle east. A lot of Afghanistan and Iraqi people try to get in via lorries from Callais to Dover.

I wasn't disagreeing with British money being worth more back home, I was simply trying to make the point that they aren't necessarily sending money back home so the whole "coming here to send money back home to help their families" doesn't always hold. (Even if it was their intention.)
 
  • #109
Jasongreat said:
Americans don't have problems with immigrants, we all have immigration in our past, even the native americans emmigrated here. Some of us do have a problem with illegal immigration though, and for good reason, its illegal!
Laws are made by human beings and are not always perfect. Let's not make them sacred.

As to the article you provided, good for india, but don't sound the trumpets just yet, you still have plenty of problems in your own country to deal with.
I would be the last to do that. We have tons of issues, yes.

But so do you :wink:
 
  • #110
Galteeth said:
1. The problem has gotten worse since NAFTA.

Doesn't mean that's NAFTA's fault.

4. Yes, but the total imports exceed the exports.

That's not a problem.

BTW, when you click the "Quote" button and get the person's post you're responding to, you can then write "quote" and "/quote" brackets around each portion of that person's post you are responding to.
 
  • #111
Galteeth said:
I was referring to the moral basis; obviously I understand the legal basis. The distinction is not arbitrary. One is private space, the other is public.
Can you see the circular aspect of that definition? One should not invade my private space because it is private. According to who? My home is shared with other family members and frequent guests but no more. I share my place of business with colleagues, occasional clients but no more. I share my country with all the other citizens and legal residents but no more.

These distinctions are the creation of human values, and I anticipate you will say so are nation states. When I refer to rights, i am obviously talking about my own moral views, not the laws of the US.
I'd say the distinctions you draw about private and public space are your assertions, not those of all humanity, at least not mine. That is, I'd commonly call the street public space too, but that definition of public does not include criminals.

The basis for private space is human conception of ownership of place. You can say the people of the US own their country. But the point is that the determination of who is a person of the United states is arbitrary. It is about location of birth.
There are a clear and rigorous set of rules in place for determining who resides legally in the US. Clearly for the millions of naturalized US citizens citizenship is about more than place of birth.
 
  • #112
mheslep said:
There are a clear and rigorous set of rules in place for determining who resides legally in the US. Clearly for the millions of naturalized US citizens citizenship is about more than place of birth.
It definitely is.
And it comes naturally to us, associating with a particular group and thinking that group is superior to all others because we are in it.

But, if you really dig deep, its really just an irrational feeling, something which probably helped in our evolution but can be a terrible baggage now.

If you go far enough back, we all should consider a small piece of land in the African grasslands as our "motherland" and be willing to die for that piece of land.

Practical aspects matter of course. You pay taxes to a particular government and so that government (supposedly) provides you with some basic services and infrastructure and all that sort of thing. But with most people, its much more than that. Patriotism makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside and makes them do silly things. Which can be terrible sometimes. Like shooting illegal immigrants.
 
  • #113
Siv said:
Laws are made by human beings and are not always perfect. Let's not make them sacred.

:

What kind of world would it be if everyone just chose which laws they had to follow and which ones they didnt. Would Mexicans feel the same way if 10-40 million americans went across their border, and went about turning their country into ours? How do they treat illegal immigrants that come from other countries? It sure isn't the same way they want to be treated here.

I could easily say it is my best interest, and that I am only trying to make my life better, to come to your house and make you feed me because my house has no food in the fridge. I think most rational people would say that was wrong, then I guess some would say that the law that says I couldn't do that, was just a man made law and not sacred, and therefore what I did was right. But I bet you would feel differently if it was your house, and your food. Now if you invited me, wouldn't that make it different? Which is why there is a difference between illegal immigration and immigration, one has been invited, the other hasnt.

Or I could say that my house has no food in the fridge, and I could go about doing what I could, under the law, to change that fact.

That is the problem I have with illegals, they need to fix their own damn country, don't come here because your country sucks, unless you want to assimilate to our culture(which includes following the law, which means coming here legally), because that is what has made our country great, law and order.
 
  • #114
Jasongreat said:
How do[es Mexico] treat illegal immigrants that come from other countries?

Poorly.

Jasongreat said:
That is the problem I have with illegals, they need to fix their own damn country, don't come here because your country sucks, unless you want to assimilate to our culture(which includes following the law, which means coming here legally), because that is what has made our country great, law and order.

You left out the part about how badly America needs the Mexican labor.
 
  • #115
Siv said:
But with most people, its much more than that. Patriotism makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside and makes them do silly things. Which can be terrible sometimes. Like shooting illegal immigrants.

Patriotism doesn't lead people to shoot illegal immigrants. That I'd more associate with nationalism. Many people confuse nationalism with patriotism, but the two are separate. Nationalism is a collective movement, it is based on groupthink. People get caught up in it, the fervor, the emotion, etc...it is a form of collective mania. Other forms of collective manias can be for example stock market bubbles and market crashes, manias over celebrities, even politicians (I'd say Barack Obama had a form of a mania around him during the '08 election).

Patriotism, on the other hand, is an individual type of thing. Patriotism isn't a collective emotional wave you get caught up in, it can mean going against the collective wave, many Democrats even epitomized this during the Bush years over the Iraq War when they said, "Dissent is a high form of patriotism." Patriotism oftentimes requires sacrifice as well.
 
  • #116
Jasongreat said:
Would Mexicans feel the same way if 10-40 million americans went across their border, and went about turning their country into ours?

That's exactly how they do feel over the annexation of Texas in 1845.
 
  • #117
Siv said:
It definitely is.
And it comes naturally to us, associating with a particular group and thinking that group is superior to all others because we are in it.

But, if you really dig deep, its really just an irrational feeling, something which probably helped in our evolution but can be a terrible baggage now.

If you go far enough back, we all should consider a small piece of land in the African grasslands as our "motherland" and be willing to die for that piece of land.

Practical aspects matter of course. You pay taxes to a particular government and so that government (supposedly) provides you with some basic services and infrastructure and all that sort of thing. But with most people, its much more than that. Patriotism makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside and makes them do silly things. Which can be terrible sometimes. Like shooting illegal immigrants.
Consider that your post may be just a collection of feelings (baseless assumptions, hyperbole, condescension) absent any logical argument before getting overly caught up in the condemnation of group associations as irrational.
 
  • #118
skeptic2 said:
That's exactly how they do feel over the annexation of Texas in 1845.
How do you know how 'they' feel? Can you also speak for the Aztecs?
 
  • #119
I am married to a Mexican and have Mexican inlaws. I also worked for five years in Mexico. I am fluent in Spanish and watch Mexican television and read Mexican newspapers. Five of my relatives are or were teachers in Mexican schools.

Before Ernesto Zedillo's presidency, the schools taught that the U.S. invaded Mexico and took Texas away from Mexico by force and under duress. Zedillo, who had been secretary of education before becoming president, moderated the tone of the textbooks presumably to make NAFTA more palatable to the Mexicans.

No I can't speak for the Aztecs.
 
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  • #120
Jasongreat said:
What kind of world would it be if everyone just chose which laws they had to follow and which ones they didnt. Would Mexicans feel the same way if 10-40 million americans went across their border, and went about turning their country into ours? How do they treat illegal immigrants that come from other countries? It sure isn't the same way they want to be treated here.

I could easily say it is my best interest, and that I am only trying to make my life better, to come to your house and make you feed me because my house has no food in the fridge. I think most rational people would say that was wrong, then I guess some would say that the law that says I couldn't do that, was just a man made law and not sacred, and therefore what I did was right. But I bet you would feel differently if it was your house, and your food. Now if you invited me, wouldn't that make it different? Which is why there is a difference between illegal immigration and immigration, one has been invited, the other hasnt.
This is called the slippery slope logical fallacy.
My point in saying that laws are not sacrosanct was saying that they can and should be changed based on objective considerations. Not that everyone should break the law. If laws are set in stone, that's not civilization, that's a religion.

That is the problem I have with illegals, they need to fix their own damn country, don't come here because your country sucks, unless you want to assimilate to our culture(which includes following the law, which means coming here legally), because that is what has made our country great, law and order.
Here it is again. The "my country is greater than your country because its mine" religion. Whats so different between this and claiming "my god is better because he is my god".

National boundaries may serve some practical benefits, but let's not be making them into a religion.
 

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