News If East Germany Could Secure Their Border So Can America

[WhoWee]

Ok, let's think about the point of view of a hypothetical Mexican. You see a future of poverty and hard labor, with little job security. You live in constant fear of violence from drug gangsters. Your government is corrupt. You have little education. You have heard there is a place where a better life is possible. You don't have knowledge of the official process, or the means to request it.

One option would be to cross the border into California. Unfortunately, the unemployment rate is high and drug gangs control the Mexican neighborhoods.
The good news is that food stamps, subsidized housing, free health care, free education are all very possible.
I believe the "American Dream" has evolved.

 

[Char. Limit]

Char.Limit, it's more than a few years they would have to wait. First in line are spouses and close relatives, next are those with higher education and special skills. Ordinary laborers that don't meet any of the special conditions are at the bottom of the list and may never get in.

So streamline the process, don't allow people to break the law to come in here.

 

[CAC1001]

Oh come on.
You're proud to be American, because all countries are equally good, with America as good as Britain and India and ...

Some countries are better than others, but that is not based on patriotism, that is just based on facts. You can very much say, "Mexico may be a crappy country, but it's still MY country, and I am a proud Mexican."

I am proud to be American because of many things about America and what it has accomplished. Doesn't mean America is perfect or had any perfect history (treatment of native Americans, slavery, Jim Crow, etc...).

 

[skeptic2]

So streamline the process, don't allow people to break the law to come in here.

That's what I was trying to do in post #66. I think most illegals come here to make more money than they could at home but are not interested in becoming citizens except to become legal. There are a few that have heard that in the US it's possible to go on welfare and live without working. Fortunately a work visa would prevent that.

The advantage of a work visa over a higher fence and stiffer penalties is that it is offering a carrot for obeying the law instead of a stick for breaking it.

 

[Galteeth]

Actually some of the most dangerous terrorists are those who have entered the country legally.

Yes, generally terrorists don't sneak across the border.

 

[ThomasT]

As several posters have stated, the fact that the Soviet Union was able to pretty effectively secure the East German border doesn't entail that the US can secure its southern border (not just the US-Mexican border per se) enough to significantly decrease the flow of illegal immigrants from Mexico, Central and South America, etc. Securing the southern US border would entail a certain level of militarization of that border and more or less drastic measures. My guess is that the US won't commit to this and that current trends will continue.

Some off topic considerations:

So, assuming that the immigration rate, legal and illegal, of Spanish speaking people remains about the same as the best guesses put it at now, then what sort of demographic changes can be expected in the US during the next few generations? What's a reasonable expectation value of the sustained growth rate of the US's Spanish speaking population? Then, given that assumption, what will the number of Spanish speaking US residents be in, say, 2060?

Another guess is that the US seems destined to become a predominantly Spanish speaking country.

 

[WhoWee]

As several posters have stated, the fact that the Soviet Union was able to pretty effectively secure the East German border doesn't entail that the US can secure its southern border (not just the US-Mexican border per se) enough to significantly decrease the flow of illegal immigrants from Mexico, Central and South America, etc. Securing the southern US border would entail a certain level of militarization of that border and more or less drastic measures. My guess is that the US won't commit to this and that current trends will continue.

Some off topic considerations:

So, assuming that the immigration rate, legal and illegal, of Spanish speaking people remains about the same as the best guesses put it at now, then what sort of demographic changes can be expected in the US during the next few generations? What's a reasonable expectation value of the sustained growth rate of the US's Spanish speaking population? Then, given that assumption, what will the number of Spanish speaking US residents be in, say, 2060?

Another guess is that the US seems destined to become a predominantly Spanish speaking country.

Logistically speaking, Canada has a great deal of open space. I think we should build a very fast train from the southern border to the northern border as soon as possible. Canada already speaks 2 languages, the assimilation will be smoother.

 

[mheslep]

As several posters have stated, the fact that the Soviet Union was able to pretty effectively secure the East German border doesn't entail that the US can secure its southern border (not just the US-Mexican border per se) enough to significantly decrease the flow of illegal immigrants from Mexico, Central and South America, etc. Securing the southern US border would entail a certain level of militarization of that border and more or less drastic measures. [...]

The record of the fence so far indicates otherwise.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5323928
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2943534&postcount=35
On what do you base your statement?

 

[ThomasT]

The record of the fence so far indicates otherwise.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5323928
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2943534&postcount=35
On what do you base your statement?

Yes, thanks for the links. But it's a very big border and there are lots of people who want to get into the US. My statement was that I don't think that the US will commit to what's necessary to significantly reduce the flow of illegal immigrants. It's just an opinion, and since it's an empirical consideration then, eventually, we'll see.

By the way, I don't consider the 'Latinization' of the current US a bad thing. After all, the current US is just a geographical location which has been populated/dominated by various cultures throughout history. My current opinion is that the dominant culture of the US, by say, 2060, will be Hispanic, not Anglo-Saxon.

 

[ThomasT]

Logistically speaking, Canada has a great deal of open space. I think we should build a very fast train from the southern border to the northern border as soon as possible. Canada already speaks 2 languages, the assimilation will be smoother.

But it's really cold in Canada.

 

[WhoWee]

But it's really cold in Canada.

I suppose the train could move the thin-skinned folks south for the winter?

 

[CAC1001]

By the way, I don't consider the 'Latinization' of the current US a bad thing. After all, the current US is just a geographical location which has been populated/dominated by various cultures throughout history. My current opinion is that the dominant culture of the US, by say, 2060, will be Hispanic, not Anglo-Saxon.

If they do not assimilate into the mainstream culture and basically turn America into Mexico, it will be a bad thing.

 

[NobodySpecial]

If they do not assimilate into the mainstream culture and basically turn America into Mexico, it will be a bad thing.

You could still follow the German model and put the fence down the middle, Texas, New mexico, southern-California, Nevada, and Arizona on one side and the rest on the other.

 

[lisab]

If they do not assimilate into the mainstream culture and basically turn America into Mexico, it will be a bad thing.

Are you sure?

Most Mexicans I know (I grew up in California, I've known plenty) are family-oriented and hard working. Really, Mexican core values aren't very different from American core values.

Of course, the corruption and drug wars wouldn't be so good .

Besides, generally by the second or third generation, they're assimilated. Who cares what language they speak at home?

 

[Char. Limit]

Are you sure?

Most Mexicans I know (I grew up in California, I've known plenty) are family-oriented and hard working. Really, Mexican core values aren't very different from American core values.

Of course, the corruption and drug wars wouldn't be so good .

Besides, generally by the second or third generation, they're assimilated. Who cares what language they speak at home?

M.E.Ch.A. is something I don't like...

 

[NobodySpecial]

Another guess is that the US seems destined to become a predominantly Spanish speaking country.

I always wondered why all the towns/rivers/mountains etc in the south-western United States were named in Spanish.

 

[turbo]

Is there a good reason for this thread to continue? East Germans wanted to prevent defections and the SW border nuts want to prevent immigration. These are not congruent goals, despite Joe Miller's to conflate them.

 

[mheslep]

If they do not assimilate into the mainstream culture and basically turn America into Mexico, it will be a bad thing.

...Besides, generally by the second or third generation, they're assimilated. ...

 

[lisab]

CAC1001 says if they don't assimilate, it's bad - I agree. My point is, they generally *do* assimilate - certainly by the third generation, at the latest.

 

[mheslep]

CAC1001 says if they don't assimilate, it's bad - I agree. My point is, they generally *do* assimilate - certainly by the third generation, at the latest.

In the past yes. Increasingly I read of communities where there's no encouragement to do so. Three generations is far too long, I think. I expect it indeed takes far longer to assimilate if an immigrant i) comes here illegally, or ii) resides in communities where assimilation is frowned upon.

 

[lisab]

In the pass yes. Increasingly I read of communities where there's no encouragement to do so. Three generations is far too long, I think. I expect it indeed takes far longer to assimilate if an immigrant i) comes here illegally, or ii) resides in communities where assimilation is frowned upon.

That's quite possible, but I don't know of such groups where I live. The immigrants I knew growing up were mostly Mexican, and most were assimilated by the second generation, or at least bi-cultural.

Where I live now there's a crush of them from eastern Europe, and they're assimilating extremely quickly.

I've read assimilation is becoming an issue in some places in Europe - perhaps the immigrant communities there have reached a critical mass, making assimilation unnecessary? Just a guess.

 

[WhoWee]

Is there a good reason for this thread to continue? East Germans wanted to prevent defections and the SW border nuts want to prevent immigration. These are not congruent goals, despite Joe Miller's to conflate them.

The train could also make a few stops in Maine if you like?

 

[mheslep]

I've read assimilation is becoming an issue in some places in Europe - perhaps the immigrant communities there have reached a critical mass, making assimilation unnecessary? Just a guess.

Since I believe the American and Western culture are worth preserving, it's history of earlier immigrants included, then assimilation is always required and never unnecessary. If immigrant communities grow too fast or too isolated, then immigration needs to be slowed down, for awhile.

 

[NobodySpecial]

CAC1001 says if they don't assimilate, it's bad - I agree. My point is, they generally *do* assimilate - certainly by the third generation, at the latest.

Not always - I understand many of the english immigrants still haven't learned any native languages after 400 years

 

[edward]

If the can't go over the fence they go under it.

The 1,800-foot tunnel is the 75th discovered on the U.S.-Mexico border since 2006, according to John Morton, director of ICE. The lighted and ventilated passageway connects two warehouses east of the Otay Mesa border crossing, a two-story building in Tijuana and another warehouse in San Diego.

Read more: http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7020435119?U.S.-Mexico%20Drug%20Tunnel%20Found,%2040%20Tons%20Of%20Marijuana%20Seized#ixzz14N91MhlA


http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7020435119?U.S.-Mexico%20Drug%20Tunnel%20Found,%2040%20Tons%20Of%20Marijuana%20Seized

 

[skeptic2]

Not always - I understand many of the english immigrants still haven't learned any native languages after 400 years

And many Mexicans would say the same about the Spanish immigrants.

 

[lisab]

Not always - I understand many of the english immigrants still haven't learned any native languages after 400 years

 

[CAC1001]

That's quite possible, but I don't know of such groups where I live. The immigrants I knew growing up were mostly Mexican, and most were assimilated by the second generation, or at least bi-cultural.

Where I live now there's a crush of them from eastern Europe, and they're assimilating extremely quickly.

I've read assimilation is becoming an issue in some places in Europe - perhaps the immigrant communities there have reached a critical mass, making assimilation unnecessary? Just a guess.

A big problem in Europe from what I understand is Muslim immigrants, who due to the Europeans not requiring them to assimilate, have essentially formed their own little "countries within-a-country." There are areas within France and Germany, Sweden, and I think even the UK now (?) where the police will not even go into, because it is too dangerous. They have had problems with Muslims rioting in France in particular, they also have rioted in London and Stockholm.

There isn't such a Muslim problem in the United States because Muslims here have mostly been assimilated; we don't have whole communities of Muslims that do not assimilate and become rather radicalized like in Europe.

As for people's languages spoken at home, I have no problem if Mexican immigrants and people of Mexican origin speak Spanish at home, that is their business entirely. I just want them to be capable of functioning within English-speaking America. If they can't function without having to "Press 2 for Spanish" (with this stated in Spanish!) and can't hook up a TV without using Spanish-language instructions, and could never get a job in regular/corporate America because they do not speak English, then there's a problem.

"Assimilate" does not mean give up one's culture, it just means become capable of functioning within America (speak the language and work and pay taxes).

 

[Gokul43201]

If the can't go over the fence they go under it.

The 1,800-foot tunnel is the 75th discovered on the U.S.-Mexico border since 2006, according to John Morton, director of ICE. The lighted and ventilated passageway connects two warehouses east of the Otay Mesa border crossing, a two-story building in Tijuana and another warehouse in San Diego.

Read more: http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7020435119?U.S.-Mexico%20Drug%20Tunnel%20Found,%2040%20Tons%20Of%20Marijuana%20Seized#ixzz14N91MhlA http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7020435119?U.S.-Mexico%20Drug%20Tunnel%20Found,%2040%20Tons%20Of%20Marijuana%20Seized

You'd think things like tunnels would be trivially easy to locate and shut down. With a team of 20 border agents, each in charge of a 100 mile section, driving along their border sections once every other day or so with a suitable ultrasonic device you'd think should eliminate the tunnel issue. But obviously the problem must be harder than I'm imagining.

 

[Siv]

Some countries are better than others, but that is not based on patriotism, that is just based on facts. You can very much say, "Mexico may be a crappy country, but it's still MY country, and I am a proud Mexican."

I am proud to be American because of many things about America and what it has accomplished. Doesn't mean America is perfect or had any perfect history (treatment of native Americans, slavery, Jim Crow, etc...).

You're proud of America because America is your country, period. And why is it your country ?
Because your great grandfather happened to be born there, or moved there, rather than a few hundred kilometers north or south or east or west.

Now if you were born a European but were proud of America, or if you were an American and proud of Japan, that wouldn't be a religion. But this is.

 

[Gokul43201]

You're proud of America because America is your country, period. And why is it your country ?
Because your great grandfather happened to be born there, or moved there, rather than a few hundred kilometers north or south or east or west.

Now if you were born a European but were proud of America, or if you were an American and proud of Japan, that wouldn't be a religion. But this is.

So irrespective of what his rationale is, you've decided that his pride is a form of religion? Incidentally, what if his great grandfather was born in Europe or Japan?

 

[Char. Limit]

So irrespective of what his rationale is, you've decided that his pride is a form of religion? Incidentally, what if his great grandfather was born in Europe or Japan?

Basically, what he's saying is that you're only allowed to be proud of a country if you're not part of that country.

Which is nonsense.

 

[WhoWee]

If the can't go over the fence they go under it.






Read more: http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7020435119?U.S.-Mexico%20Drug%20Tunnel%20Found,%2040%20Tons%20Of%20Marijuana%20Seized#ixzz14N91MhlA


http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7020435119?U.S.-Mexico%20Drug%20Tunnel%20Found,%2040%20Tons%20Of%20Marijuana%20Seized

An operation like that is funded and organized - and criminal.

 

[Galteeth]

Basically, what he's saying is that you're only allowed to be proud of a country if you're not part of that country.

Which is nonsense.

No, no no, it's makes total sense to be proud to be an American, because we all know that objectively, America is the greatest country in the world. Having pride in any other country is just crazy. Or at least that's what I gather from my nightly Glenn Beck watching.

Cause you know, at least I know I'm free, etc. etc.

 

[Char. Limit]

No, no no, it's makes total sense to be proud to be an American, because we all know that objectively, America is the greatest country in the world. Having pride in any other country is just crazy. Or at least that's what I gather from my nightly Glenn Beck watching.

Cause you know, at least I know I'm free, etc. etc.

I never mentioned America. You brought up America.

 

[JaredJames]

This thread is done. In the last two pages there's barely a mention of the whole fencing issue.

Haven't unsubscribed from a thread in a while. But unfortunately I keep getting emails full of rambling non-sense.

 

[WhoWee]

I think the tunnel mentioned a few posts back is worth discussing.

 

[NobodySpecial]

I think the tunnel mentioned a few posts back is worth discussing.

It was quite a nice tunnel, it had obviously been made by profesional engineers.
It started in a warehouse just across the border and went quite a way, 300-400m into the USA splitting into several branches so it came up in a few different warehouses on the US side.

They run too deep to detect with ground penetrating radar or microphones, they are normally found by intelligence work - warehouse on the US side rented by front companies that don't seem to need a warehouse and have no trucks arriving.

They are also mostly used to smuggle drugs rather than people. If you smuggle people the security is too hard and the location will leak out, after you have spent rather a lot of time and effort building the tunel

 

[Siv]

So irrespective of what his rationale is, you've decided that his pride is a form of religion? Incidentally, what if his great grandfather was born in Europe or Japan?

Then it would not be a religion - please read what I wrote -

Now if you were born a European but were proud of America, or if you were an American and proud of Japan, that wouldn't be a religion. But this is.

Basically, what he's saying is that you're only allowed to be proud of a country if you're not part of that country.

Which is nonsense.

Ok, Char.Limit. First of all, I am a "she".

Second of all, it is not nonsense (calling something nonsense is an argument since when ?).

Patriotism is "my country right or wrong" - theistic religions are "my god right or wrong". There is no rationale to either. It is our innate sense of "us vs. them" is all.

 

[Siv]

This thread is done. In the last two pages there's barely a mention of the whole fencing issue.

Haven't unsubscribed from a thread in a while. But unfortunately I keep getting emails full of rambling non-sense.

Wow, the PF I remember from 7-8 years ago was a much nicer place.

 

[Char. Limit]

Then it would not be a religion - please read what I wrote -


Ok, Char.Limit. First of all, I am a "she".

Second of all, it is not nonsense (calling something nonsense is an argument since when ?).

Patriotism is "my country right or wrong" - theistic religions are "my god right or wrong". There is no rationale to either. It is our innate sense of "us vs. them" is all.

Firstly, it's rather difficult to tell gender over the internet. Since I am a he, I assume others are as well.

Secondly, calling something nonsense has never been a logical argument, but I wasn't making an argument, I was making a statement.

And finally, if I'm proud of the U.S. because we have the largest, most powerful army (I'm not saying that I'm proud of the U.S. for this reason, but let's go with it), is that "religious"?

 

[mheslep]

A big problem in Europe from what I understand is Muslim immigrants, who due to the Europeans not requiring them to assimilate, have essentially formed their own little "countries within-a-country." There are areas within France and Germany, Sweden, and I think even the UK now (?) where the police will not even go into, because it is too dangerous. They have had problems with Muslims rioting in France in particular, they also have rioted in London and Stockholm.

There isn't such a Muslim problem in the United States because Muslims here have mostly been assimilated; we don't have whole communities of Muslims that do not assimilate and become rather radicalized like in Europe. [...]

I suggest the reason for the difference in assimilation is the perennially weak job creation rate in Europe compared to the US (until recently). Especially in the troubled areas you mention, Muslims immigrate to Europe but can't get a job because of things like the employer restrictions and a less than stellar entrepreneurial culture. They linger none the less because of the largess of extensive welfare systems, while retreating into isolated communities. Hopefully this is a cautionary tale for a US government considering policies hostile to business.

 

[NobodySpecial]

A big problem in Europe from what I understand is Muslim immigrants, who due to the Europeans not requiring them to assimilate, have essentially formed their own little "countries within-a-country."

Not all communities choose to assimilate, visited a camera store in New York recently?

There are areas within France and Germany, Sweden, and I think even the UK now (?) where the police will not even go into, because it is too dangerous.

Unlikely - there were areas of the UK where the police couldn't go and the army had to be used. But that was due to christians - we are still waiting for them to assimilate but it's only been 1500 years so we need to give them a chance.

They have had problems with Muslims rioting in France in particular, they also have rioted in London and Stockholm.

Everybody riots in France. If the croissants are cold they burn barricades in the streets.
Disaffected youth riot everywhere when they feel the system is against them.
I understand there have occasionally been riots in the USA with the descendants of some of your former imported laborers - despite them being Episcopalians.

 

[NobodySpecial]

I suggest the reason for the difference in assimilation is the perennially weak job creation rate in Europe compared to the US (until recently).

Or more likely numbers and timing. Europe has a larger muslim community - mostly from former empire countries in the UK and France or Turkish guest workers in the case of Germany. The children of the people who first migrated after WWII are now more assimilated.

It's a lot more comparable to Mexican immigration to the US - and so a similar level of poverty / unemployment etc. In London the only mexicans you are likely to meet are professors, managers of mexican companies or airlines etc. so on the same basis Brits would be wondering why mexicans in the USA seem so down and what it is about the US economy that obviously doesn't work.

 

[CAC1001]

You're proud of America because America is your country, period. And why is it your country ?
Because your great grandfather happened to be born there, or moved there, rather than a few hundred kilometers north or south or east or west.

Now if you were born a European but were proud of America, or if you were an American and proud of Japan, that wouldn't be a religion. But this is.

It's not religion. It would be a religion if you blindly think your culture/country is superior and that's that. Being proud of your culture/country while acknowledging faults it has and areas it could learn from others, is not religion.

Patriotism is "my country right or wrong" - theistic religions are "my god right or wrong". There is no rationale to either. It is our innate sense of "us vs. them" is all.

You're confusing patriotism with nationalism. Patriotism is more complex than "my country right or wrong." Nationalism is rather religious and cult-like. It is blind and cannot be reasoned with. You can't reason with a rabid Nazi. It's a cult. You also can't reason with a rabid Marxist. It's a cult. A patriotic German, you very much could reason with. A patriotic Russian, you very much could reason with.

Reminds me of Tom Cruise in Valkyrie when he says, "Do you want to serve Germany or the Fuhrer?"

Or Mikhail Baryshnikov in White Nights when he says, "I am Russian. Not Soviet."

Patriotism and nationalism are different and patriotism is not religious.

 

[JaredJames]

Wow, the PF I remember from 7-8 years ago was a much nicer place.

It also had far slacker rules regarding off-topic posts.

The discussion is now regarding whether or not patriotism is a religion or not. This has what to do with a fence?

I'm sorry but this thread has just got plain silly.

 

[NobodySpecial]

Patriotism and nationalism are different

Largely semantics though nowadays
Left wing philosphers tended to define them as nationalism = aggressive, patriotism = defensive.
Right wing philosphers split them into nationalism=instinct/no choice in where you are born vs patriotism = moral choice/duty to country.

Unless you define what you mean they are pretty interchangeable terms.

 

[ThomasT]

Ok, so what's the prevailing opinion here? Is a border obstacle with monitering and militarization sufficient to significantly decrease the flow of illegal immigrants going to happen? My guess is no. It won't happen.

 

[JaredJames]

A 20ft fence, 15ft above ground, 5ft below ground. Floodlit and monitored with infrared and other such sensor tech. Guard towers every 100yds with armed, shoot to kill guards (well perhaps not that last one).

That should stem the flow somewhat. Blooming expensive though.

As sarcastic as it sounds, I really think that would be the only effective way to stop the vast majority of illegal immigrants passing into the USA. But then, would the cost be justified?

I do hate illegal immigration but I think an important point here is that the UK has a strip of water between us and Europe and we still get illegals passing over via the trade routes on lorries using the ferries and trains across the Channel.
If this border defence isn't enough to keep them out then I don't see how anything less than a fence such as I have described above would be effective (granted it's the transport links causing the problem, but even the US would still have them - not sure how much of a problem they create for you though).

The solution for the UK is simple, search every lorry entering the UK. This would drastically reduce the number of immigrants entering illegaly but it would also be extremely costly, both in monetary value and delay time for transport vehicles.
The US would need to implement an island like system (as per the UK), isolating yourselves completely so that the only way in and out is via border posts, allowing you to check as many entering vehicles as possible.

Tunnels, well I don't think there's much you can do about those.

 

[Gokul43201]

A 20ft fence, 15ft above ground, 5ft below ground. Floodlit and monitored with infrared and other such sensor tech. Guard towers every 100yds with armed, shoot to kill guards (well perhaps not that last one).

A 100yds? That's 30,000 towers, and at least as many guards! I think you could achieve the same with towers 1000 yds apart - I think that's still within fairly easy viewing distance for most parts of the border region.