News Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 6 YTBN Shot, Killed In Tuscon AZ

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U.S. Representative Gabrielle Giffords was among at least 18 people shot during a constituent meeting at a Tucson grocery store. Initial reports indicated she was shot in the head at point-blank range, leading to concerns about her survival. Eyewitness accounts described the chaotic scene, with multiple casualties, including a federal judge and a child, and a suspect, identified as Jared Lee Loughner, was taken into custody. Discussions centered around the nature of the attack, with speculation about whether it was politically motivated or a personal vendetta. Medical professionals on the scene provided aid, but the prognosis for many victims was grim. The incident sparked debates about gun control and the motivations behind such violent acts, with some arguing that mental illness played a significant role. The tragedy raised concerns about the safety of public figures and the potential impact on political discourse.
  • #571
WhoWee said:
Your response seems reasonable. However, I'd still like to find out what the "system" is actually does in these circumstances - what is the process - how would he have been treated if someone had called? Is the "system" functional - if someone had called?

I honestly have no idea, and I don't have any friends or real colleagues in AZ. I can do some research online, but I think we'd need to hear from someone who knows how it really plays out on the ground before we could know.

Do we have anyone like that on PF?... this place is always full of surprising information and people.
 
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  • #572
DanP said:
I really don't think that the community of Tucson is so shaken as many seem to believe.
Everyone has their own internal drama queen.

That does not mean their (and our) grief is insincere.

But life inexorably moves on, even from horrifying events like this massacre. Usually, it is quite a boring life, and a bit of drama colours your life for a few days (positively or negatively), and then the humdrum (or hectic) everyday existence returns.
 
  • #573
WhoWee said:
Your response seems reasonable. However, I'd still like to find out what the "system" is actually does in these circumstances - what is the process - how would he have been treated if someone had called? Is the "system" functional - if someone had called?
Not directed to you Whowee, but to others that brought it up - I wasn't aware that there is a "report a crazy person" hotline. :-p What hotline would this be?

Also, a phone call accusing someone of not acting right is unlikely to get a response. What exactly can authorities do? Is he disturbing the peace? Do they go out because someone tells them someone is weird? That's the problem the school had, he gave people the creeps, he said stupid things about his constitutional rights, and that the school was scamming him. What more could they have done outside of the internal reprimands he was given? He didn't actually threaten harm to anyone. How do you report that someone gives you the impression they might be capable of violence without them actually doing or saying anything?

His parents however could have contacted their doctor or social services and explained his history. That is probably the only thing that would have worked, but even then, unless the person is considered an immediate danger to themselves or others, he would have to volunteer to be evaluated.
 
  • #574
Evo said:
Not directed to you Whowee, but to others that brought it up - I wasn't aware that there is a "report a crazy person" hotline. :-p What hotline would this be?

Also, a phone call accusing someone of not acting right is unlikely to get a response. What exactly can authorities do? Is he disturbing the peace? Do they go out because someone tells them someone is weird? That's the problem the school had, he gave people the creeps, he said stupid things about his constitutional rights, and that the school was scamming him. What more could they have done outside of the internal reprimands he was given? He didn't actually threaten harm to anyone. How do you report that someone gives you the impression they might be capable of violence without them actually doing or saying anything?

His parents however could have contacted their doctor or social services and explained his history. That is probably the only thing that would have worked, but even then, unless the person is considered an immediate danger to themselves or others, he would have to volunteer to be evaluated.

Errr... somewhere earlier in this thread... I thought you brought it up. :blushing: I couldn't believe it either, but it's just as open and wacky as your good points make it.

EDIT: WOW... Just released a tape of Loughner taping himself walking around at night, talking to himself. He is... NUUUUUUUUUUUTS.
 
  • #575
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-arizona-shooting-20110115,0,4035752,full.story

Yep, I've talked to people in worse states, but that is BAD.

edit: The above is a link to a video made by Loughner, of him, walking around and... rambling... and associated article.
 
  • #576
Evo:
Although parents are those in the position toknow, they are also the ones having the strongest motivations to deny problems with their offspring.
Because the parents' love for them.

They are the ones who most eagerly latch onto every "positive" signal, the ones with the most fervent hopes for their children, and the ones most likely to blame outsiders for their childrens' troubles than the children themselves.

It is a very high barrier for parents to admit to themselves that their child has..failed.

We need to keep this in mind.
 
  • #577
arildno said:
Evo:
Although parents are those in the position to<i>know</i>, they are also the ones having the strongest motivations to <i>deny</i> problems with their offspring.
Because the parents' love for them.

They are the ones who most eagerly latch onto every "positive" signal, the ones with the most fervent hopes for their children, and the ones most likely to blame outsiders for their childrens' troubles than the children themselves.

It is a very high barrier for parents to admit to themselves that their child has..failed.

We need to keep this in mind.
I completely understand reasons why they didn't do anything, unfortunately, they're also the only ones that had a realistic chance of getting him the help he needed.
 
  • #578
Evo said:
I completely understand reasons why they didn't do anything, unfortunately, they're also the only ones that had a realistic chance of getting him the help he needed.
To that, I fully agree.

And, without, of course,intending it, the parents' self-imposed social isolation deprived them of friends who could initiate the thought processes in themselves that there was something deeply wrong developing within their Jared.

We need each other, in a myriad of ways...
 
  • #579
Evo said:
What exactly can authorities do? Is he disturbing the peace? Do they go out because someone tells them someone is weird? That's the problem the school had, he gave people the creeps, he said stupid things about his constitutional rights, and that the school was scamming him. What more could they have done outside of the internal reprimands he was given? He didn't actually threaten harm to anyone. How do you report that someone gives you the impression they might be capable of violence without them actually doing or saying anything?

This is what I'm wondering - what is the specific process for dealing with complaints? Up until he gunned down 19 people - he really didn't stand out much from the crowd.

People make death threats in courtrooms and in front of witnesses from time to time. If he had made a specific threat that he intended to shoot 19 people someday to a health care worker or even a law enforcement person a few months ago (when dealing with the college) - what would have happened? How long could he be jailed - if at all?

This is a "crack" that needs to be studied - and hopefully addressed.
 
  • #580
Either his parents were mentally ill, or they had better have a DAMNED good explanation; did you see that video? No wonder his father chased him in a truck, they KNEW that young man was out of his mind, and from the accounts we've all heard, progressively more so.

WhoWee: Watch that video, and tell me a guy who talks like that, even to HIMSELF (never mind posting on youtube!) doesn't stand out.
 
  • #581
It turns out this is the video that caused the university to throw him out. It should have caused them to call the police...
 
  • #582
nismaratwork said:
Either his parents were mentally ill, or they had better have a DAMNED good explanation; did you see that video? No wonder his father chased him in a truck, they KNEW that young man was out of his mind, and from the accounts we've all heard, progressively more so.

WhoWee: Watch that video, and tell me a guy who talks like that, even to HIMSELF (never mind posting on youtube!) doesn't stand out.
Parents who desperately want their child to be okay, go to the most irrational lengths to believe what their child tells them personally.

If Jared said something like "I just freaked out over that B I got, the school is overreacting", his parents might have latched onto that, dismissing all the evidence they should have paid attention to.

Crazy people like Jared can seem sane to people he instinctively knows how to push the buttons on.
 
  • #583
arildno said:
Parents who desperately want their child to be okay, go to the most irrational lengths to believe what their child tells them personally.

If Jared said something like "I just freaked out over that B I got, the school is overreacting", his parents might have latched onto that, dismissing all the evidence they should have paid attention to.

Crazy people like Jared can seem sane to people he instinctively knows how to push the buttons on.

Forget the parents; I'm not sure what the laws are in AZ, but if this video came to the attention of a single psychologist, psychiatrist, or medical doctor, even a social worker... in the state I'm in... you have a heightened legal responsibility to report even for the sake of the person's welfare.

As for his parents... I think you may be overestimating the Loughner's capacity to maintain a semblance of sanity, even at home; he was unable to do so for a single friend, nor his own father in the end.
 
  • #584
nismaratwork said:
Either his parents were mentally ill, or they had better have a DAMNED good explanation; did you see that video? No wonder his father chased him in a truck, they KNEW that young man was out of his mind, and from the accounts we've all heard, progressively more so.

WhoWee: Watch that video, and tell me a guy who talks like that, even to HIMSELF (never mind posting on youtube!) doesn't stand out.

An earlier post indicated this guy was a 9/11 Conspiracy person. I just found 17 youtube tapes on the 9/11 subject that seem crazier than his video.

 
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  • #585
WhoWee said:
An earlier post indicated this guy was a 9/11 Conspiracy person. I just found 17 youtube tapes on the 9/11 subject that seem crazier than his video.



That's wrong... it's conspiratorial, but it isn't crazy like Loughner... I don't see the rambling tangents that have nothing to do with the subject (even a wacky subject), I don't see the repetitive language... etc.

I think this is part of the problem: all crazy is not the same, or equal, nor is every irrational belief and action the result of insanity.

Loughner is crazy, and he shot those people... he's not crazy BECAUSE he did... he was crazy looooong before, from what I can see.
 
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  • #587
Wow... How did that school not contact the police?! I doubt they'd forsee the current tragedy, but a reasonable person could foresee him coming back to campus to kill.
 
  • #588
nismaratwork said:
That's wrong... it's conspiratorial, but it isn't crazy like Loughner... I don't see the rambling tangents that have nothing to do with the subject (even a wacky subject), I don't see the repetitive language... etc.

I think this is part of the problem: all crazy is not the same, or equal, nor is every irrational belief and action the result of insanity.

Loughner is crazy, and he shot those people... he's not crazy BECAUSE he did... he was crazy looooong before, from what I can see.

The shooter's tape was also conspiratorial in nature - I still don't think he stands out from the crowd. Even now, looking at his tape, what implies he will do violence - he joked with the teacher about a B.
 
  • #589
WhoWee said:
The shooter's tape was also conspiratorial in nature - I still don't think he stands out from the crowd. Even now, looking at his tape, what implies he will do violence - he joked with the teacher about a B.

Yeah... I guess they didn't get the joke (he also says, "I'm pissed off" and this may be more of his inappropriate behavior, since this was apparently the final impetus to boot him and recommend the mental health evaluation. His tape isn't conspiratorial either, it's rambling and full of persecutorial delusion; he never even outlines a coherent conspiracy, just references to themes and "mind control".

Think of it this way, The 9/11 conspiracy IS real... an incredibly wealthy Saudi man named Bin Laden, an MD, and a bunch of other Arab men, with the cooperation of the ruling government of Afghanistan, trained and planned for YEARS... etc. The result: 2 building are gone, the pentagon was damaged, and many people are dead.

Even in that truly grotesque conspiracy film they're not claiming that the towers are there, but we can't see it because of government mind control, then go off on a tangent about nothing. Their conspiratorial thinking is run amok and misdirected, but it's one of, if not the, biggest conspiracies in modern time.
 
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  • #590
  • #591
WhoWee said:
The shooter's tape was also conspiratorial in nature - I still don't think he stands out from the crowd. Even now, looking at his tape, what implies he will do violence - he joked with the teacher about a B.
If anything, without knowing about the shooting, would anyone think anything other than some dumb/stoned kid?
 
  • #592
Evo said:
If anything, without knowing about the shooting, would anyone think anything other than some dumb/stoned kid?

Yeah, I would, and anyone with a hint of psychological training would, and the school DID.
 
  • #593
nismaratwork said:
As for his parents... I think you may be overestimating the Loughner's capacity to maintain a semblance of sanity, even at home; he was unable to do so for a single friend, nor his own father in the end.

Possibly. On the other hand, remember who he seemed to be, and his background. Fro what I've undestood, both Jareds Mom and Dad are working-class.
Do they have any academic schooling, in the way Jared seemed to have the potential of?
His aunt has said his parents doted on him. In his mid.teens, they spent thousands of dollars on his not inconsiderable artistic talents as a saxophone player.

Personally, I think they became totally convinced that their bright kid would tackle and master "everything", and that they downplayed his oddness as expressions of hidden genius (whatever his actual grades). What did they know of the subtle nuances grammar has on the meaning of words? I'm sure Jared had a few staple insights concerning this that would strike them as ingenious, if rather incomprehensible.

He was their special kid, their son, and nothing deeply wrong could possibly be in his nature.

Sadly, their own worries, as they mounted, could not be communicated and understood as an alarming pattern because their own reclusiveness debarred them from outside perspectives.
Without such outside perspectives, they did not find themselves able to see how very wrong the state was that their son was in.
 
  • #594
Evo said:
If anything, without knowing about the shooting, would anyone think anything other than some dumb/stoned kid?

I'm with you Evo. I've witnessed worse behavior on city streets than this tape indicates. I (personally) would not have called the police after watching the video.
 
  • #595
nismaratwork said:
Yeah, I would, and anyone with a hint of psychological training would, and the school DID.
What about this would make you think it was a "report a crazy person" hotline'?

CPSA, in keeping with the community-based roots of its founders, believes in the importance of community involvement and community reinvestment. CPSA is dedicated to providing high-quality behavioral health services to residents of Southern Arizona and to a philosophy of care that is member and family driven, goal-focused and recovery oriented. The Mission Statement and Statement of Values and Guiding principles have been developed within this philosophical context.

Mission Statement
The mission of the Community Partnership of Southern Arizona is to ensure individuals and families receive accessible, high-quality behavioral health services that are member and family driven, recovery oriented, respectful of cultural differences and foster hope and self-determination.

http://w3.cpsa-rbha.org/static/index.cfm?contentID=2342

Sure they could have picked up the phonebook and called any mental health agency, but read the reasons I stated previously.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3084624&postcount=573
 
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  • #596
arildno said:
Possibly. On the other hand, remember who he seemed to be, and his background. Fro what I've undestood, both Jareds Mom and Dad are working-class.
Do they have any academic schooling, in the way Jared seemed to have the potential of?
His aunt has said his parents doted on him. In his mid.teens, they spent thousands of dollars on his not inconsiderable artistic talents as a saxophone player.

Personally, I think they became totally convinced that their bright kid would tackle and master "everything", and that they downplayed his oddness as expressions of hidden genius (whatever his actual grades).

He was their special kid, their son, and nothing deeply wrong could possibly be in his nature.

Sadly, their own worries, as they mounted, could not be communicated and understood as an alarming pattern because their own reclusiveness debarred them from outside perspectives.
Without such outside perspectives, they did not find themselves able to see how very wrong the state was that their son was in.

You could be right, his parents may have been able to delude themselves until whatever happened with his father and that chase. It's hard to imagine anyone else being around him for any meaningful length of time and not realizing that something was terribly wrong; his thought disturbances are not subtle. Hallucination, persecutorial delusions, perceptual deficits, evidence of a breakdown in the capacity for reasoning through the destruction of his internal world with the reality of the real world... it's terrible.

As one doctor (psychologist I think) said on CNN, "The psychological community is [saying?] at arms length that this is schizophrenia..."

...Yep.
 
  • #597
Evo said:
What about this would make you think it was a "report a crazy person" hotline'?
http://w3.cpsa-rbha.org/static/index.cfm?contentID=2342

Sure they could have picked up the phonebook and called any mental health agency, but read the reasons I stated previously.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3084624&postcount=573

A school, and the doctors in that school don't have to bother with a hot-line; and as for why?... generally, what I said in my previous post, to arildno. If you gave this guy the TAP, he'd probably tell you about Venusian currency...

If you want specifics, later tonight, or tomorrow when they have a transcript I'll highlight it line-by-line if you like... preferably tomorrow, my hands are hurting from arguing (not with you) with fans of big mags and other less savory things.edit: Forget this shooting for a moment: If he had returned after his expulsion and done to the school what he did to 20 (essentially) strangers... this school would be CRUCIFIED for not taking more action, even if that action failed. If they told the police, and gave them this video and he still was "off their radar"... wow.
 
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  • #598
WhoWee said:
I'm with you Evo. I've witnessed worse behavior on city streets than this tape indicates. I (personally) would not have called the police after watching the video.
Another thing is that although we have the benefit of knowing he snapped and killed people, we're also reading a collection of people talking about him. One of his best friends and their family never noticed anything odd about him, according to what they've told the press, they thought he was great.

@nismar, I've seen stuff posted here that would make jared look like the poster child for sanity. I never would have believed how many crazy people there are among us, and I mean truly crazy people. If I reported every crazy poster I've encountered on the internet, it would be a part time job.
 
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  • #599
Evo said:
Another thing is that although we have the benefit of knowing he snapped and killed people, we're also reading a collection of people talking about him. One of his best friends and their family never noticed anything odd about him, according to what they've told the press, they thought he was great.

I'm not arguing that you could foresee him shooting 20 people, although between what his friend Zane said, it's not impossible either. Or... to quote one of the teachers who had him expelled, one of those, "I was shocked, but I wasn't surprised." Really... I kid you not.

Anyway, you don't need to foresee mass murder, you just need to know that undiagnosed and untreated people with persecutorial delusions are one of the ONLY group of those people usually called "crazy" who really ARE a danger to others and themselves (edit: in the manner depicted in media, i.e. violent outbursts, etc... not that plain-old folk don't kill themselves)
 
  • #600
Evo said:
Another thing is that although we have the benefit of knowing he snapped and killed people, we're also reading a collection of people talking about him. One of his best friends and their family never noticed anything odd about him, according to what they've told the press, they thought he was great.

I was called recently to serve as a juror on a case that included abduction, torture, rape, and a triple murder - including a pregnant woman. The jury selection process included a cattle call of sorts that took most of the day. I sat in a crowded courtroom, just behind the defendant for several hours. I watched him closely and could hear his discussions with attorneys regarding the proceedings. He looked at me - looking at him - several times whenever he turned around.

Fortunately, I know one of the prosecutors and requested to be released. In order to process my request, they had me enter a small conference room where the judge, prosecutors, defense attorneys, and the defendant were all present. I sat down and explained my reason for the request - everyone agreed I should be released.

As I prepared to leave, the defendant said (something to the effect of) 'hey man thanks - I thought you'd want to give me the needle' I smiled and said if I didn't know the prosecutor I probably would have - then we both laughed and he gave me a nod of approval.

He's on death row now - but you really couldn't tell from looking at him, watching his behavior, or talking directly to him that he is a savage animal.
 

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