The discussion centers around a shooting incident involving U.S. Air Force servicemen at Frankfurt Airport in Germany. Participants explore the nature of the attack, its motivations, and the implications regarding terrorism and acts of war. The conversation includes various perspectives on the identity of the shooter and the broader context of violence against military targets.
Participants do not reach a consensus on whether the shooting should be classified as terrorism or an act of war. Multiple competing views remain regarding the motivations of the shooter and the implications of the attack.
There are unresolved questions about the suspect's background and motivations, as well as differing interpretations of the nature of the attack. Participants rely on media reports, which may contain varying information.
CNN said:NEW: The victims are U.S. Air Force airmen based at Lakenheath in England, a military source says
NEW: A bus driver may be among the dead, the source says
The incident involves a U.S. military bus
One person is in custody, police say
mugaliens said:Yesterday, President Obama said, "We will not rest, we will spare no effort until we have determined how this happened."
Rest easy, Mr. President, Here's the answer: A muslim extremist opened fire on a bus full of American servicemen.
As a bonus, I solved the Ft. Hood debacle for you, too! Same answer, except it was a building, not a bus.
I hope this clarifies the pattern of events for you.
Proton Soup said:why are they calling it terrorism? this is an act of war against military targets.
nismaratwork said:What war... I didn't realize we were at war with Germany...
Proton Soup said:he did this in the name of germany? it would be nice to know more about his motivations, but his target is well-defined.
nismaratwork said:http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/03/02/germany.shooting/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1
The suspect is Chechen.
This is looking like an intentional attack on US Service Members. This occurred on a bus at Frankfurt Airport.
nismaratwork said:Oh, he did it in the name of radical Islam (if it can even be cosidered Islam), no argument... still, I don't buy that as a war. He's a German citizen acting as a lone-wold killer... since when do we care in what name such people act?
The suspect is named Arid Uka, from the northern town of Mitrovica, Kosovo's interior minister, Bajram Rexhepi, told CNN, citing the U.S. Embassy in Pristina as his source.
Proton Soup said:i don't know what you're babbling about
LAtimes said:FRANKFURT, Germany — The suspect in the slaying of two U.S. airmen at the Frankfurt airport confessed to targeting members of the American military, a top security official said Thursday, in a case that German officials are treating as a possible act of Islamic terrorism.
German federal prosecutors took over the investigation into Wednesday's shooting, which also injured two airmen, one of them critically. They are working together with U.S. authorities.
Hesse state Interior Minister Boris Rhein told reporters in Wiesbaden that the suspect, identified as a 21-year-old ethnic Albanian from Kosovo, was apparently radicalized over the last few weeks and acted alone, the DAPD news agency reported.
"The suspect is accused of killing two U.S. military personnel and seriously injuring two others," federal prosecutors said in a statement. "Given the circumstances, there is a suspicion that the act was motivated by Islamism."
The suspect's family says he worked at Frankfurt airport and was a devout Muslim, but Rhein said he did not belong to a wider terrorist network or cell. He was taken into custody immediately after the shooting and is to appear later Thursday in federal court.
Frankfurt police spokesman Juergen Linker told the DAPD news agency that one airman remained in critical condition after being shot in the head. The other wounded airman was not in life-threatening condition, Linker said. None of the victims have yet been publicly identified, pending notification of next of kin.
The attacker's family in northern Kosovo identified him as Arid Uka, whose family has been living in Germany for 40 years. At his father's home in Frankfurt on Thursday, a man yelled at reporters to "go away," threatening to call police.
Kosovo is mostly Muslim, but its estimated 2 million ethnic Albanians are strongly pro-American due to the U.S.'s leading role in NATO's 1999 bombing of Serb forces that paved the way for Kosovo to secede from Serbia.
nismaratwork said:I'd add... I refrain from saying that you babble, kindly do the same. We all make errors, but you're only making yourself sound callous and rude by making assumptions and insults.
nismaratwork said:Oh, he did it in the name of radical Islam (if it can even be cosidered Islam), no argument... still, I don't buy that as a war. He's a German citizen acting as a lone-wold killer... since when do we care in what name such people act?
Proton Soup said:sorry, i just found your "no argument" "in the name of radical Islam" statement a bit rude and assumptive, myself.
Maui said:... the killer shouted Allah Akhbar as he was shooting the Americans so his motives are clear(though not understandable).
What am I missing here? Apparently the killer is a violently anti-American, militant Islamic extremist. Violently anti-American, militant Islamic extremism considers itself at war with the US. Doesn't it?nismaratwork said:Why does killing in the name of a religion change this?... It's murder, not an act of war. There is no war to act in, unless he's Afghani I suppose, or North Korean.
ThomasT said:What am I missing here? Apparently the killer is a violently anti-American, militant Islamic extremist. Violently anti-American, militant Islamic extremism considers itself at war with the US. Doesn't it?
Point taken. But here's some, I think relevant, Wiki links:nismaratwork said:Sure, they do... no reason we have to play on those terms however. To say that sporadic attacks punctuated by the occasional catastrophe is a war, just... diminishes what a real war is.
ThomasT said:
Ok, call it what you will. More important than our semantic disagreement is the apparent fact that due to modernization and education and cultural interaction, the Muslim world is changing. The young people in Muslim countries are, apparently, increasingly embracing Western ways. They (the relatively young) represent an inordinately high percentage of the populations of those countries. The historical proclivities of Muslim culture will be increasingly moderated. It's a long process, and it's quite painful for funamentalists and extremists. But it's inevitable (even though the ill-advised Iraq invasion and occupation might be viewed as slightly interferring with this inexorable trend) -- whether we call the recent shooter a criminal or a crazed lunatic terrorist or a soldier fighting a war for a cause.nismaratwork said:That is certainly one interpretation, and although the vast majority of Muslims I've known believe in a personal Jihad, not a militant one... there's a huge variation over multiple cultures and 1.* billion poeple.
I've also met a guy with a green flag and sword yelling, "Jiiihaaad, Jihaaaad, Allahu akbhar, die jehudi!" (in Saudi Arabia)... so... yeah, some people really take this thing to an extreme. In terms of real cost, and cost of lives, I'm generally more concerned with fundamentalist Christians with endless litigation over "morals", and abortion, a war on Christmas, stem cell research, etc.
Still, I'm saying this so that you unerstand, that I grasp your point. I'd also say that the international terrorist 'Mujahideen' are a creation of 2 superpowers... both of whom are now experiencing blowback. If there is a war here, it's the end of proxy warfare between us (the USA), and the former USSR.
Look, Timothy "Can't Die Fast Enough" McVeigh thought he was at war too... I think he was a criminal in the class, "terrorist." Nations declare war, people can declare whatever they want, as long as they don't mind being killed by nations. We don't define criminals as they define themselves, we do so according to national and international norms, jurisprudence, and law.
I admit, the Bush rhetoric muddied that for many, but it doesn't change matters. It's not a war. Reagan didn't mistake the bombing in Germany, and his response in Libya, for war... all conflict and violence, however it's framed by the participants, is not war.
So, Muslims believe that the Quran is the literal and unadulterated word of god... which is rough, because that means you don't have the out nearly ever other religion does; writings of men, inspired by a god or gods. You have the commentary (Hadiith), so you have a small group that is highly educated in terms of religious scholarship, but with littlle lattitude. A "moderade Muslim" is going to always have issues with the West, and visa versa, and with themselves.
I've noted 2 major routes:
1.) Using commentary and interpretation as justification for action (from masturbation, to war)
2.) Bank on god being merciful.
To be really blunt, that sounds a lot like more religions that not... don't mistake the clash of cultures with a clash of faiths. Don't mistake all violent conflict for war.
ThomasT said:Ok, call it what you will. More important than our semantic disagreement is the apparent fact that due to modernization and education and cultural interaction, the Muslim world is changing. The young people in Muslim countries are, apparently, increasingly embracing Western ways. They (the relatively young) represent an inordinately high percentage of the populations of those countries. The historical proclivities of Muslim culture will be increasingly moderated. It's a long process, and it's quite painful for funamentalists and extremists. But it's inevitable (even though the ill-advised Iraq invasion and occupation might be viewed as slightly interferring with this inexorable trend) -- whether we call the recent shooter a criminal or a crazed lunatic terrorist or a soldier fighting a war for a cause.
What do you think?