Principle of equal transit times

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the principle of equal transit times in the context of fluid dynamics and its relation to the Bernoulli principle and lift generation on airfoils. Participants explore the validity and implications of this principle, particularly in relation to air particle behavior around an airfoil.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the principle of equal transit times, suggesting it is foundational to the Bernoulli principle's explanation of lift, which posits that two air particles leaving the same point will arrive at the same point simultaneously.
  • Another participant argues that the Bernoulli principle's explanation of lift is overly simplistic and that lift is better understood through circulation considerations, rather than relying on the equal transit times principle.
  • A proposed experiment is mentioned, involving a vertical front of fluid moving through an airfoil, where all particles must reach the end simultaneously to avoid a tangential discontinuity.
  • It is noted that a vortex forms behind the airfoil, which contradicts the equal transit times principle, as indicated by the Kelvin Theorem.
  • A participant seeks clarification on the term "tangential discontinuity," which is explained as a sudden variation in fluid magnitudes such as velocity or pressure.
  • Further clarification is provided that the flow behind the airfoil is no longer irrotational, making the Bernoulli principle inapplicable in that region.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the principle of equal transit times and its role in explaining lift. There is no consensus on the explanation of lift, with some supporting the Bernoulli principle and others challenging its applicability.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in the application of the Bernoulli principle, particularly in scenarios involving vortices and tangential discontinuities, which may affect the understanding of fluid behavior around airfoils.

Munch_E
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How does the principle of equal transit times works?

the Bernoulli principle explains lift by high speed = low pressure but these relays on the fact that two particles of air living the same point A will arrive at the same point B at the same time and this is explained by the "principle of equal transit times" my question is what is this principle and how does it work? :confused:
 
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Munch_E said:
How does the principle of equal transit times works?

the Bernoulli principle explains lift by high speed = low pressure but these relays on the fact that two particles of air living the same point A will arrive at the same point B at the same time and this is explained by the "principle of equal transit times" my question is what is this principle and how does it work? :confused:

I think that the lift explanation provided by Bernoulli principle is a little bit primary and not realistic. The lift forces exerted on an airfoil comes generally from circulation considerations, more than that simplistic explanation.

About that principle you mentioned, think of the next experiment. Imagine a vertical front of fluid moving through the airfoil. All the particles have to reach simultaneusly the end of the airfoil because if not there would be a tangential discontinuity.

In fact this discontinuty exists, and it's a vortex behind the airfoil generated by the Kelvin Theorem. So that, we come up with the conclusion that such time principle is unreal and do not waste much time thinking on such a simplistic descriptions when you try to achieve an explanation about lift.
 
first of all I thank you for your quick and extensive answer.

but I didn't quite understand what "tangential discontinuity" means.
(english in not my native tounge =\ )
 
Munch_E said:
first of all I thank you for your quick and extensive answer.

but I didn't quite understand what "tangential discontinuity" means.
(english in not my native tounge =\ )

A tangential discontinuity is a discontinuity of some fluid maginitude such as velocity, density or pressure. I mean if the flow goes on x direction, a tangential discontinuity is a line such that flow magnitudes vary suddenly through "y" direction. The problem here is that just behind the airfoil the flow is no longer irrotational. Therefore, the Bernoulli principle is not applicable. A vortex is generated behind the airfoil, in part because of the principle you mentioned is not yielded, and because of the Kelvin's Theorem.

English is not my native language too. :smile:
 
thank's :biggrin:
now I've got it.
and by the way your english is very good :smile:
 

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