Things I've learned as a recent grad

[Jamin2112]

• It's difficult to get anywhere with a "general" STEM major like Math, Physics, Chemistry, Statistics or Biology, unless you know specifically what type of job you want and you know how to use your major to market a specific skill set related to that job. It's okay to choose one of those majors if you're unsure of what you want to do and you're a sophomore who's being forced to choose a major, or if those subjects greatly interest you. Just make sure you have a marketable skill set that you can demonstrate with experience.
• The economy sucks. It's worse than the politicians make it out to be. If you're smart, you realize that the politicians cook the books on unemployment numbers and that the job gains in the past few years have largely been for part-time jobs in the service sector. Also, fewer and fewer jobs are "safe", due to foreign workers and outsourcing. What all this means is that any decent job is extraordinarily competitive to secure. As Thomas Friedman says, "Average is over." You can't be average and expect to have a decent living. Having a college degree merely makes you average. That's because of my next point.
• There is an overabundance of college degrees and hence you see college grads working as baristas and forklift operators. The Bachelor degree as a requirement for podunk jobs is just because it has replaced the high school degree as the weed-out educational requirement. A job listing for a hamburger flipper will get 5000 applicants and so the employer can afford to require a Bachelor degree. He'll still have 1000 applicants to choose from and at least he knows these 1000 have some base level of intelligence and motivation.
• Another consequence of the bad economy is that temp agencies have sprung like wildflower. Evidently, some people have had success working under temp agencies and then getting hired full-time by the company they were doing work for. But the vast majority of people who get contacted by recruiters at temp agencies are getting led on by fake job listings and recruiters who are just filling their daily quota of contacts or trying to use your personal references to network and find more client companies for themself. Don't get your hopes up if one of big tech staffing agencies like Robert Half Technology calls you and tells you about how they want to submit you for a perfect position they have.
• The best job boards, in descending order, are Indeed, LinkedIn and, believe it or not, CraigsList. But none of these are good for a recent college grad. Any position that is listed is "Entry-Level" will have 20 requirements including 5-10 yrs professional experience. There do exist truly entry-level jobs at good companies, but you'll only be able to find them through your university or other connections. Apply for the jobs with "require" experience even if you don't have it. If they give you a call, that means they think you're a good potential candidate in spite of the fact that your resume doesn't show you have experience. I've gotten calls from several places after applying for jobs for which I didn't meet the "requirements."
• Don't bother going to any "networking events" or "open houses". It'll be you and 1000 other desperate people trying to suck up to the company while their managers give an info session and gloat over how great their jobs are and how they pick up only the greatest talent on Earth and that you should apply online if you think you're elite enough.

 

[Vanadium 50]

• It's difficult to get anywhere with a "general" STEM major like Math, Physics, Chemistry, Statistics or Biology, unless you know specifically what type of job you want and you know how to use your major to market a specific skill set related to that job.

• 
  
  (Emphasis mine)
  
  Why is this surprising? A company makes a hire not because it feels obligated to reward STEM majors, but because it needs something done.

 

[Jamin2112]

(Emphasis mine)

Why is this surprising? A company makes a hire not because it feels obligated to reward STEM majors, but because it needs something done.

Right, but I was just trying to emphasise that when they need someone who can do something, that means knowing to use the tools that people use in the real world. You aren't going to get anywhere trying to sell yourself as über smart dude who can learn anything because he knows the theory behind it. You know how to integrate ∫e^-x2dx over [-∞, ∞] and you know how that relates to the fact relates to the fact that normal curve has area 1. Cool. Good for you. But do you know how to use Excel to enter a bunch of numbers and calculate which percentile they're at on the normal curve?

 

[georgej116]

You know how to integrate ∫e^-x2dx over [-∞, ∞] and you know how that relates to the fact relates to the fact that normal curve has area 1. Cool. Good for you. But do you know how to use Excel to enter a bunch of numbers and calculate which percentile they're at on the normal curve?

Maybe it's just me, but I think this attitude is a little insulting. Of course he can!

I've found this stereotype of a head-in-the-clouds physicist who can't do anything useful to not even be remotely correct. I would venture to say at least 90% of physicists I've encountered can do exactly what you describe.

This attitude pertetuates a very poisonous problem. There is something very wrong when an advanced academic degree is a hindrance to getting a job. Of course not many employers should require the skills of a PhD. But when it's looked at negatively, as if one had a conviction on record, it reflects a dangerous anti-intellectualism in our society. And this may not be your intention, but you're making it worse.

 

[Locrian]

I've found this stereotype of a head-in-the-clouds physicist who can't do anything useful to not even be remotely correct.

Well, many employers disagree. Why don't you share some techniques you've used in your private sector job hunts that successfully overcame this objection?

Personally, I just downplayed my physics experience. Not sure that's what people here are hoping for.

 

[Lavabug]

Well, many employers disagree. Why don't you share some techniques you've used in your private sector job hunts that successfully overcame this objection?

There's not much you can do if an employer has already made up their mind about what a physics graduate can or cannot do, irrespective of what you tell them.

I second george's statement, a similar fraction of physics students at my faculty are highly competent in many areas outside of strict book-learning, far beyond what I've seen many "IT experts" doing at mega-stores, low level banking, and government positions. Most are proficient in basic analog electronics, they all speak and write eloquently, all without exception dominate office packages and can write a program to sovle a concrete problem on the spot in this or that language (2 of the "slackers" actually tutor CE and other engineering majors for a living, believe it or not). The statement of not knowing how to use Excel for basic stats is definitely not one that matches reality, IME.

But for a number of reasons including the negative stigma of having an advanced (and seemingly esoteric) degree, they will probably never get hired to do those jobs without connections (which is really a polite way of saying 'relying on nepotism').

Anyway, as far as the OP goes, I generally concur with everything said. I never had much of an intention of re-entering the labor force after physics without going for a postgraduate degree first, but the last 5-6 months of demoralizing and uneventful job-hunting I've had have heavily reinforced my desire to do so.

 

[Jamin2112]

Maybe it's just me, but I think this attitude is a little insulting. Of course he can!

I didn't say that a Physics/Math/Stats/etc. grad can't use Excel, in the sense that he's incapable of learning it. I said he actively doesn't how to.

 

[AlephZero]

I didn't say that a Physics/Math/Stats/etc. grad can't use Excel, in the sense that he's incapable of learning it. I said he actively doesn't how to.

If a graduate has such a feeble-minded attitude to self-education as that, he/she doesn't deserve a job IMO. If I interviewed somebody with that attitude, they would go straight on the "reject" pile, irrespective of what paper qualifications they had got by being spoon-fed.

 

[Jamin2112]

I second george's statement, a similar fraction of physics students at my faculty are highly competent in many areas outside of strict book-learning, far beyond what I've seen many "IT experts" doing at mega-stores, low level banking, and government positions. Most are proficient in basic analog electronics, they all speak and write eloquently, all without exception dominate office packages and can write a program to sovle a concrete problem on the spot in this or that language (2 of the "slackers" actually tutor CE and other engineering majors for a living, believe it or not). The statement of not knowing how to use Excel for basic stats is definitely not one that matches reality, IME.

Speaking as a Math grad, I would say that half of my class knew how to program, and that's only because they were doubling in CS & Math or because they had done Math as a backup plan after not getting into CS (which was extremely competitive at my school). The other half had no active knowledge of any tools that are applicable to any job.

 

[Jamin2112]

If a graduate has such a feeble-minded attitude to self-education as that

Huh? I'm big supporter of self-education as a way to compensate for the skills one lacks as a college graduate. I've been doing a ton of self-education since graduating 5 months ago.

It seems people here are suggesting that a Physics grad should apply for any job, no matter the experience required, since his intelligence is so high that he doesn't need real-world experience to develop proficiency in something like Excel. He can just read a tutorial before the interview, and that'll compensate for his lack of real-world experience. Voila!

 

[ModusPwnd]

I can certainly do that in Excel. Hell, as a youth before college I wrote some VBA code to manage my budget and import .csv files from my bank and card companies. It was a few years before I realized that "Quicken" does that all automatically. lol

I agree with the premise and spirit of your original post, its hard to get a career style job with a physics degree. Many of the positions I have applied for do specifically ask for competency in Microsoft Office. It think that seems silly since such a thing should be a given for most any grad. But I do put a line on my CV stating that I am experienced/competent in Office. In my experience they want very specific skills and work experience though. The ability to "think on your feet" and "solve a variety of problems" (with Excel or something else) is not a marketable skill.

 

[lisab]

I graduated some 20 years ago with a BS in physics. From my perspective, today's job market is much, much worse than it was back then. Nowadays when people post here with career questions, I push them hard towards engineering. It's just an easier degree to market to employers. We can debate here all day about how much Excel people know or should know, but the fact is, physics is a hard degree to sell to a hiring manager.

I feel like I was "given a chance to prove myself" several times in my career. Employers seem less likely to do that now with young inexperienced people, IMO. Do other PFers feel that way?

I felt confident enough in the job market that I took a long time off to be a stay-home mom in the 90s. Sadly, I would never advise that to a young parent these days!

So I agree with the general points of the OP. My advice is, go with engineering. If you feel you simply must major in physics (or math), consider an engineering double major. Or at least try to pick up some useful skills so you can get your foot in the door somewhere when the time comes to get a job!

 

[Lavabug]

I graduated some 20 years ago with a BS in physics. From my perspective, today's job market is much, much worse than it was back then. Nowadays when people post here with career questions, I push them hard towards engineering.

For a good fraction of the career advice posts that show up here, this advice comes a little too late (3rd, 4th year physics majors and beyond), but is the thing to do if one isn't considering a higher degree after a BS.

For those that it has become too late, I recommend attending graduate school in whatever field you want to work in if you can meet the entrance requirements/can afford it. Optics and applied physics masters programs are probably the only one's that won't be a massive culture shock for you and that you might actually feel compelled to spend good money on. Otherwise it's nigh on impossible to get any job you could have landed fresh out of high school ~7 years ago (perhaps even those as well), in my experience. I find myself in this screwed situation. Going to a funded STEM grad school program to me right now looks like the only way to pay rent bills a year down the line. Fortunately it's something I've always wanted.

 

[jasonRF]

I graduated some 20 years ago with a BS in physics. From my perspective, today's job market is much, much worse than it was back then. Nowadays when people post here with career questions, I push them hard towards engineering. It's just an easier degree to market to employers. We can debate here all day about how much Excel people know or should know, but the fact is, physics is a hard degree to sell to a hiring manager.

I graduated around the same time, but went to grad school afterwards, finishing in the late 90s. The job market was great - the .com bubble hadn't burst yet and I found it not so hard to find a good position, even though my specialty (in electrical engineering) was plasma physics.

I feel like I was "given a chance to prove myself" several times in my career. Employers seem less likely to do that now with young inexperienced people, IMO. Do other PFers feel that way?

I was given a lot of opportunity to learn new things, and sometimes I was given portions of projects because it was a good learning experience, even though it meant we would deliver later. With all the opportunity, and some hard work and initiative on my part, I have become a reasonably competent engineer. These days I think it would be unlikely for someone exactly like me to get an offer from my company, at least for the kind of technical position I was hired into. Indeed, when my last boss asked a few details about my formal education, his comment was, "why did we hire you?" Now they want someone that needs less training and can hit the ground running. I think the hiring managers are picky because they can be; if the economy were better we could not be this way.

jason

 

[jesse73]

There is no real comparison to be made between this job market and the job market of anyone who graduated in the early 2000', 90's,80's,70's,60's... until the 30's

There are enough people out of a non-part time job that employers can be really really choosy. Combine this with a trend in outsourcing and technology replacing workers that is outpacing job creation and you have a general problem. The government deciding to push every single person to go to college and get any degree isn't helping.

 

[ZapperZ]

Did I miss the info on on what degree level is this "recent grad"? B.sc? M.Sc? Ph.D? Those can make a lot of difference.

Zz.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I think the word "major" strongly suggests a BA/BS degree.

Every job market is different than ones in the past. This one differs from the 1980-82 market which had similar unemployment rates in that college graduates now make up 30% of the market - almost twice what it was in 1980. At the same time, college graduates are learning less: see, for example, Arum and Roska "Academically Adrift: Limited Learning on College Campuses". Not surprising, since the average student now spends only twelve hours per week studying.

 

[ParticleGrl]

At the same time, college graduates are learning less: see, for example, Arum and Roska "Academically Adrift: Limited Learning on College Campuses"..

I find it odd that the groups that show the most learning (science and the humanities) have a harder time getting their foot in the door than the groups that show the least learning (business). If you want a student who learned something, you are way better off hiring a philosophy major than a business major and yet recent business majors have a lower unemployment rate.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Probably because they "know how to use your major to market a specific skill set related to that job". And who said business majors necessarily learned any less?

 

[ParticleGrl]

Probably because they "know how to use your major to market a specific skill set related to that job". And who said business majors necessarily learned any less?

The academically adrift study you referenced has a break-out of learning on the CLE test they use by undergraduate major. Business majors have the lowest scores and the least improvement.

I wonder how much of the "students learn less"/"students study less" can be explained by the growth of business majors.

 

[Rika]

I find it odd that the groups that show the most learning (science and the humanities) have a harder time getting their foot in the door than the groups that show the least learning (business). If you want a student who learned something, you are way better off hiring a philosophy major than a business major and yet recent business majors have a lower unemployment rate.

As a person who did both Physics and Business degree I can tell it's not like that. Maybe you see it like this because learning in those fields is totally different - in physics you gain all knowledge that you need in academia, in business it's all way around - all valuable knowledge comes outside of academia and is generally harder to get. So in order to be competent in physics you just need to do BSc, PhD and that's it - if you didn't slack, you are competent in physics while in business you need 10-15 years of experience in order to to be called an expert.

So why do they hire business majors? As Vanadium said - they do have some sort of skillset but first and foremost it's about personality and soft skills. While math comes in handy the most important thing in business are soft skills - good comunication, being able to network. It's different approach to the problem - you use more psychology and intuition than math. Business majors have different mindset that's why they are hired.

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

I graduated some 20 years ago with a BS in physics. From my perspective, today's job market is much, much worse than it was back then. Nowadays when people post here with career questions, I push them hard towards engineering. It's just an easier degree to market to employers. We can debate here all day about how much Excel people know or should know, but the fact is, physics is a hard degree to sell to a hiring manager.

I feel like I was "given a chance to prove myself" several times in my career. Employers seem less likely to do that now with young inexperienced people, IMO. Do other PFers feel that way?

I felt confident enough in the job market that I took a long time off to be a stay-home mom in the 90s. Sadly, I would never advise that to a young parent these days!

So I agree with the general points of the OP. My advice is, go with engineering. If you feel you simply must major in physics (or math), consider an engineering double major. Or at least try to pick up some useful skills so you can get your foot in the door somewhere when the time comes to get a job!

I graduated about 23 years ago, just as the cold war defense contracts were drying up. Thankfully I was attending school at night and I already had a background as a capable technician. Many of my class mates had to leave even though they had only one semester left to earn their engineering degree. They had lost their jobs and they had families to support.

The job market was tight back then, but not as tight as it is now. The big change is offshoring/outsourcing, and Human Resources. When I first started in the working world, there was no such thing as Human Resources. There were Personnel clerks. They did not interfere with the hiring process, they merely passed the paperwork to the appropriate people. Some time around the late 1980s this began to change.

Today, HR gets in the middle of every hiring decision. They want people who fill the pigeon holes they have created for their own bureaucracy. Part of this was brought about because of the side effects of legal cases involving discrimination. So the working world created very tightly defined positions.

The days when you could be given challenging work and loads of On the Job Training (OJT) to see if you can handle a new job are nearly gone. HR has defined those jobs and the prerequisites for each one. LisaB probably experienced that OJT thing. I know I did.

What these small minded bureaucrats do not realize is that people like that do not emerge directly from schools. There is no substitute to learning on the job, just as she and I did. Furthermore, there is no easy way to document that you know the things that you learned on the job because there is no certificate of any sort. Experience is downgraded in favor of education and certification because the latter can be verified while they have to take your word for the former.

There will be a problem as the baby boomers retire. At that point there will be all sorts of work available. However, managers, not understanding what these jobs really were will outsource them or offshore them, while thinking that this is just an issue of worker-hours. Sadly there is a lot more to it than that, but they don't teach this to MBA or HR students.

My suggestion is to learn what you can on the job, and then learn how to freelance and market yourself very carefully to the Project Managers. You will get more work that way and the managers will get their worker hours. They will pay through the nose for this, but few will realize this because they don't know any different.

The best way to beat this problem is to start building your own outsourcing firms doing things where you see opportunity. The days when you could apprentice yourself to a company over a long term, and then become a master over the years are disappearing rapidly. Today, it's all about how you market and bill yourself. It's about short term contracts that generate a deliverable for some ignoramus who probably has no way to tell if it really does what you say it does.

If I had it to do over again, I'd market perpetual motion machines. It seems there is no shortage of people who didn't get STEM classes buying such things. Yes, I'm a bit jaded; but I've learned to laugh instead of cry from all the stupidity. It's more fun that way.

 

[Choppy]

With respect to the issue of business majors being hired over physics majors...

I'm reading a book by Daniel Kahneman right now called "Thinking Fast and Slow" and in it he talks about how people tend to select in favour of familiar, easy to understand things and select against difficult or abstract things. I can't help, but wonder if I'm being evaluated by an average Joe or Josie on the street with respect my education (often the first relevant information on a resume) that this effect would come into play.

If I say, for example, I studied marketing, management, and did a internship as a salesperson at a Toyota dealership where I was responsible for gross sales of $200k worth of product - all of those points likely to be understood, at least on a superficial level. If I throw in some calculus, statistics and macroeconomics, I'm likely to be seen as smart.


If on the other hand I say I've studied stellar evolution, electrodynamics, quantum mechanics and did an internship at a national lab where I calibrated ion chambers in a Co-60 beam, and then throw in some calculus, statistics and an elective in macroeconomics - I suspect I'll likely to lose a good portion of my audience on stellar evolution. I also suspect I'll come across to many as brainy, introverted, and possibly even conceited.

 

[Aero51]

I have a very controversial question to ask since it is relevant to this thread: If I fill out an online application and select that I am a minority, will I get in trouble when they find out I am a poor white boy? It's not like I have to show proof of my ethnicity.

 

[Corpuscule]

As a person who did both Physics and Business degree I can tell it's not like that. Maybe you see it like this because learning in those fields is totally different - in physics you gain all knowledge that you need in academia, in business it's all way around - all valuable knowledge comes outside of academia and is generally harder to get. So in order to be competent in physics you just need to do BSc, PhD and that's it - if you didn't slack, you are competent in physics while in business you need 10-15 years of experience in order to to be called an expert.

So why do they hire business majors? As Vanadium said - they do have some sort of skillset but first and foremost it's about personality and soft skills. While math comes in handy the most important thing in business are soft skills - good comunication, being able to network. It's different approach to the problem - you use more psychology and intuition than math. Business majors have different mindset that's why they are hired.

I don't think the bolded part is even remotely true. In physics you also need many years of research experience on top of your PhD to be called an expert. I however fully agree with everything else in your post.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I have a very controversial question to ask since it is relevant to this thread: If I fill out an online application and select that I am a minority, will I get in trouble when they find out I am a poor white boy? It's not like I have to show proof of my ethnicity.

Dishonesty is never a good strategy.

 

[inotyce]

I have learned several things in different branches of math, each of which sadly and admittedly isn't sufficient yet for me to get straight a real research job that is math related. But sure I am hanging on it until luck comes. I am heading into abstract math and process modeling with some minor aspects of statistics and probability. I am also learning Microsoft excel VBA and such.

 

[Shaun_W]

Don't bother going to any "networking events" or "open houses". It'll be you and 1000 other desperate people trying to suck up to the company while their managers give an info session and gloat over how great their jobs are and how they pick up only the greatest talent on Earth and that you should apply online if you think you're elite enough.

This is a good point, and also one I would have vehemently denied when I was a final year undergrad attending said events.

Recruitment nowadays for students and graduates is handled almost exclusively online, increasingly via long and drawn out application forms too. Attending said events does not allow you to bypass the system, or get a head start. None of the information presented or given will not be able to be found online quite easily on the company's students/graduates webpage. They only exist because companies are worried that if they don't run these types of events then the calibre of students/graduates they want to attract won't bother to spend several nights of their life filling out their application forms.

A lot of older people advise "networking" to students/graduates. Networking is about forming mutually beneficial relationships. As a student or graduate (i.e. not a professional) you can only take, not give back, and thus professionals have no reason to want to form a relationship with you over the hundreds or thousands of other desperate students there.

Instead you're far better off spending the time actually filling in the online application form. And when you do, make sure you use the same language as what is used in company literature, since software that picks out keywords is becoming increasingly common.

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

Instead you're far better off spending the time actually filling in the online application form. And when you do, make sure you use the same language as what is used in company literature, since software that picks out keywords is becoming increasingly common.

We have had very few entry level jobs lately. Thanks to HR policies, they're looking for experience and certification everywhere --even for ditch diggers. I'm not sure what to say to a new graduate except that you should attempt to acquire work experience that is relevant to your career while you're attending school.

 

[Aero51]

Dishonesty is never a good strategy.

I am so sick of hearing this line of garbage from EVERYONE. We live in new times. The morals that worked 50 something years ago will fail today, fail! I used to be a believer of integrity and honesty, then I woke up one day after realizing how screwed I've been and how little my moral doctrines have been paying off.

Dont kid yourself:
*lying will get your foot in the door
*dishonesty makes for great networking, remember it is the image you can project not the project you must deliver
*politicians do it all the time and they are living great lives
*ceo's do it all the time and they have probably everything they've ever wanted

Some hippy might say "Well at the expense of others and your values, blah blah blah"
my response to those fools is "who cares"

Im so tired of being preached this old fasion morals garbage, it doesn't work. I don't know why so many people fail to realize this.

 

[MathematicalPhysicist]

I am so sick of hearing this line of garbage from EVERYONE. We live in new times. The morals that worked 50 something years ago will fail today, fail! I used to be a believer of integrity and honesty, then I woke up one day after realizing how screwed I've been and how little my moral doctrines have been paying off.

Dont kid yourself:
*lying will get your foot in the door
*dishonesty makes for great networking, remember it is the image you can project not the project you must deliver
*politicians do it all the time and they are living great lives
*ceo's do it all the time and they have probably everything they've ever wanted

Some hippy might say "Well at the expense of others and your values, blah blah blah"
my response to those fools is "who cares"

Im so tired of being preached this old fasion morals garbage, it doesn't work. I don't know why so many people fail to realize this.

Dishonesty in one thing leads to dishonesty in another, and in the end it will return to you like a Boomerang.

 

[ZapperZ]

I am so sick of hearing this line of garbage from EVERYONE. We live in new times. The morals that worked 50 something years ago will fail today, fail! I used to be a believer of integrity and honesty, then I woke up one day after realizing how screwed I've been and how little my moral doctrines have been paying off.

Dont kid yourself:
*lying will get your foot in the door
*dishonesty makes for great networking, remember it is the image you can project not the project you must deliver
*politicians do it all the time and they are living great lives
*ceo's do it all the time and they have probably everything they've ever wanted

Some hippy might say "Well at the expense of others and your values, blah blah blah"
my response to those fools is "who cares"

Im so tired of being preached this old fasion morals garbage, it doesn't work. I don't know why so many people fail to realize this.

Sorry, I am sure you are lying when you wrote this as well, and being dishonest about everything you wrote. After all, this is your life mantra, isn't it? So why would we believe everything you write, by your own admission?

If you lie to me in your job application when I interview you, *I* will know! And there goes your chances to be hired. Try to get ahead then. If this is how you live your life, then you might want to consider that you're getting what you deserve.

Zz.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I am so sick of hearing this line of garbage from EVERYONE. We live in new times. The morals that worked 50 something years ago will fail today, fail! I used to be a believer of integrity and honesty, then I woke up one day after realizing how screwed I've been and how little my moral doctrines have been paying off.

Dont kid yourself:
*lying will get your foot in the door
*dishonesty makes for great networking, remember it is the image you can project not the project you must deliver
*politicians do it all the time and they are living great lives
*ceo's do it all the time and they have probably everything they've ever wanted

Some hippy might say "Well at the expense of others and your values, blah blah blah"
my response to those fools is "who cares"

Im so tired of being preached this old fasion morals garbage, it doesn't work. I don't know why so many people fail to realize this.

I understand your frustration, but the truth of the matter is that dishonesty will only work if you know with a very strong degree of certainty that you can get away with it (i.e. not be discovered). Politicians and CEOs, as you say, lie all the time precisely because they were able to get away with it, but even in those circumstances, life becomes very difficult for them once they're caught in that said lie.

The same is true of networking. If you are discovered (and there is always a chance that this would occur, particularly if you are not skilled at deception, and given what you have posted about before about your depression, I suspect you would not be good at it), then that could make life very difficult for yourself in any future opportunities, because you will develop a reputation for dishonesty. And who wants to hire someone with a known reputation as a liar?

My question to you is whether this would really be worth it. In your specific example about lying on a form about being a minority -- chances are very high that you will be discovered at some point, in particular during the interview process. If discovered, you might as well kiss any chance of getting that job goodbye.

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

Im so tired of being preached this old fasion morals garbage, it doesn't work. I don't know why so many people fail to realize this.

It may work well in the short term, but in the longer term, a lack of morals will hurt you.

Neverthless, there is a streak of psychopathy among leadership. For whatever reasons, it does not hinder people in those types of positions as much. Even so, it does catch up to them too. There have been some spectacular failures: Ken Lay of Enron, Bernie Madoff, to name just a few. However, in any other field besides C level leadership, it doesn't work. I have personally observed people get pushed, squeezed, and actually fired from positions where they exhibit such behavior.

Leadership tends to be less dependent upon others for getting along. However in an office, the plant floor, in front of customers, and in any other position we are dependent upon the work and deeds of others. One little lie leads to another and another until eventually, people find reasons to push you out the door. It may not be overt, but it does happen. I've seen it more times than I care to think about.

If you don't think morals matter, don't work anywhere around me. We can tolerate all sorts of incompetence, but getting caught in a lie is cause to be fired on the spot.

 

[Aero51]

Every example you guys have presented me with is qualitative. As a young professional, I am really sick of hear the "hard work pays of..." line, because that isn't true anymore. Have any of you telling me I'm wrong been in the job search as a young professional within the last 5 years? "Hard work", "perseverance", "honesty", "do what you love" is a dead lie today. I wake up everyday and I ask myself if what I am doing will really pay off. I am told it will, but deep down I really don't think so. I review all the cover letters I've written, the resumes I've wrote, the shear number of job I have applied to and had...0 results! I even went to a career counselor and she loved my resume so much she wanted to put in the dorky book of sample resumes that career centers sometimes give out.

In going against everything I have believed since I was a child, I am starting to think those who take shortcuts in life know something I don't and I am missing out.

 

[kinkmode]

I've met plenty of people who were willing to network with me, an unemployed physicist. Actually, pretty much everyone I've reached out to has taken time out of their busy day to meet with me for lunch or coffee and brainstorm.

Unfortunately, it hasn't gone anywhere because no one is hiring, but I can see how it's a lot more effective than firing off resumes into the void.

My advice would be to take advantage of career fairs at university while you still have them, and intern/coop while you still can. And start reaching out to people to do 'informational interviews'. Google that phrase for more info.

 

[ZapperZ]

Every example you guys have presented me with is qualitative.

"Qualitative"? You mean they are ANECDOTAL, just like yours?

Your "evidence" is no different. You just chose to adopt one conclusion. It doesn't negate other conclusions. If this is how you draw up your conclusion, then no wonder your "world" is so skewed.

Again, I have no evidence that you're telling the truth.

This thread as degenerated into "The World According to Aero51". It is selfish and has neglected the OP's question.

Zz.

 

[Jamin2112]

I feel like employers who put a long list of impossible-to-meet requirements for a "Junior" or "Entry-Level" position are going to attract pathological liars and severely overconfident people. Who they want to attract are smart and capable people, but most smart and capable people are in fact honest and underconfident in their abilities. You can look at the studies that show intelligent people underrate their intelligence and non-intelligent people overrate their intelligence.

 

[kinkmode]

I graduated around the same time, but went to grad school afterwards, finishing in the late 90s. The job market was great - the .com bubble hadn't burst yet and I found it not so hard to find a good position, even though my specialty (in electrical engineering) was plasma physics.

...

These days I think it would be unlikely for someone exactly like me to get an offer from my company, at least for the kind of technical position I was hired into. Indeed, when my last boss asked a few details about my formal education, his comment was, "why did we hire you?"

I'm glad you brought this up. Not enough people who graduated pre-2008ish acknowledge or understand this point. Not enough people who graduated pre-2008ish recognize they got their start because someone gave them a chance, not because of all their hard work. Thus we get all the rants about the entitled generation.

Companies have the upper hand because the job market is so difficult. They sit around waiting for the perfect candidate instead of hiring someone like you who can learn the ropes in a reasonable amount of time and add countless value in the long term. But that's ok. They can afford to. Who cares about the people whose lives are being ruined because they don't have the requisite 2-5 years of experience in industry and Excel pivot tables.

By the way, with respect to Excel: At the last contract job I worked at, I had to help the group script up an Excel solution since they didn't know how to do it. Never mind that Excel is pretty much the only program the group used and I hadn't had it installed on a computer in 5+ years. Companies are so quick to discount skills that are transferrable (programming in this case) because they don't realize the applications. As a result, they end up with a group of engineers who can't program and thus don't know how to script Excel, or even figure it out.

 

[Locrian]

As a young professional,

What profession are you a member of, out of curiosity?

 

[ModusPwnd]

I am so sick of hearing this line of garbage from EVERYONE. We live in new times. The morals that worked 50 something years ago will fail today, fail! I used to be a believer of integrity and honesty, then I woke up one day after realizing how screwed I've been and how little my moral doctrines have been paying off.

Dont kid yourself:
*lying will get your foot in the door
*dishonesty makes for great networking, remember it is the image you can project not the project you must deliver
*politicians do it all the time and they are living great lives
*ceo's do it all the time and they have probably everything they've ever wanted

Some hippy might say "Well at the expense of others and your values, blah blah blah"
my response to those fools is "who cares"

Im so tired of being preached this old fasion morals garbage, it doesn't work. I don't know why so many people fail to realize this.

I agree to some extent. I sure don't think it was any different 50 years ago. Lying is a skill people use because it works. If it didnt work I doubt we would have evolved it. I lied to get my current job. I said I didnt have a degree and only completed some college, they bought the lie and hired me. People who are so dead set against lying simply want the world to be that way even though it isnt. Lying is tough to pull off and in many cases you are better off not lying. But sometimes it works, that's just how it is whether we like it or not.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I am so sick of hearing this line of garbage from EVERYONE. We live in new times. The morals that worked 50 something years ago will fail today, fail! I used to be a believer of integrity and honesty, then I woke up one day after realizing how screwed I've been and how little my moral doctrines have been paying off.

Dont kid yourself:
*lying will get your foot in the door
*dishonesty makes for great networking, remember it is the image you can project not the project you must deliver
*politicians do it all the time and they are living great lives
*ceo's do it all the time and they have probably everything they've ever wanted

Some hippy might say "Well at the expense of others and your values, blah blah blah"
my response to those fools is "who cares"

Im so tired of being preached this old fasion morals garbage, it doesn't work. I don't know why so many people fail to realize this.

You often post how sad your life is. Perhaps honesty for its own sake would improve things. Just sayin'.

 

[Lavabug]

I'm glad you brought this up. Not enough people who graduated pre-2008ish acknowledge or understand this point. Not enough people who graduated pre-2008ish recognize they got their start because someone gave them a chance, not because of all their hard work. Thus we get all the rants about the entitled generation.

Companies have the upper hand because the job market is so difficult. They sit around waiting for the perfect candidate instead of hiring someone like you who can learn the ropes in a reasonable amount of time and add countless value in the long term. But that's ok. They can afford to. Who cares about the people whose lives are being ruined because they don't have the requisite 2-5 years of experience in industry and Excel pivot tables.

By the way, with respect to Excel: At the last contract job I worked at, I had to help the group script up an Excel solution since they didn't know how to do it. Never mind that Excel is pretty much the only program the group used and I hadn't had it installed on a computer in 5+ years. Companies are so quick to discount skills that are transferrable (programming in this case) because they don't realize the applications. As a result, they end up with a group of engineers who can't program and thus don't know how to script Excel, or even figure it out.

Emphasis mine. This, a million times this.

Also, lies have a tendency to come back and irreparably tarnish your reputation in the long run.

We live in a world where hypocrisy is rife, but that doesn't mean you have to conform and "do it because everyone else (allegedly) does it". No one likes being lied to and they'll do their best to drown you in guilt if you get caught, but everyone's willing to give career advice that amounts to bold-faced lying on a CV or job interview. Since they're not the ones getting duped, it's ok.

IMO, the only thing you take to your grave is your integrity. Some people have a heavier conscience than others. Golden rule, and all that.

 

[atyy]

Every example you guys have presented me with is qualitative. As a young professional, I am really sick of hear the "hard work pays of..." line, because that isn't true anymore. Have any of you telling me I'm wrong been in the job search as a young professional within the last 5 years? "Hard work", "perseverance", "honesty", "do what you love" is a dead lie today. I wake up everyday and I ask myself if what I am doing will really pay off. I am told it will, but deep down I really don't think so. I review all the cover letters I've written, the resumes I've wrote, the shear number of job I have applied to and had...0 results! I even went to a career counselor and she loved my resume so much she wanted to put in the dorky book of sample resumes that career centers sometimes give out.

In going against everything I have believed since I was a child, I am starting to think those who take shortcuts in life know something I don't and I am missing out.

It's not new, look at Watson and Crick 50 years ago. I think the honest way has always been the been the hard way.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Every example you guys have presented me with is qualitative. As a young professional, I am really sick of hear the "hard work pays of..." line, because that isn't true anymore. Have any of you telling me I'm wrong been in the job search as a young professional within the last 5 years? "Hard work", "perseverance", "honesty", "do what you love" is a dead lie today. I wake up everyday and I ask myself if what I am doing will really pay off. I am told it will, but deep down I really don't think so. I review all the cover letters I've written, the resumes I've wrote, the shear number of job I have applied to and had...0 results! I even went to a career counselor and she loved my resume so much she wanted to put in the dorky book of sample resumes that career centers sometimes give out.

In going against everything I have believed since I was a child, I am starting to think those who take shortcuts in life know something I don't and I am missing out.

Exactly how is my example I gave you "qualitative"?

You had asked whether or not it would be a good idea for you to lie on an application form about whether you are a minority. Suppose for the moment you did this for a particular job you had applied for, and the HR rep or hiring manager contacts you asking you to come in for a face-to-face interview.

The moment you walk into that interview, you will be discovered that you had lied on that form. There's just no way around that. Once you have been exposed as a liar on that question, the hiring manager or HR rep will wonder what else you may have lied about. Tell me how that will help you out in any way whatsoever.

 

[kinkmode]

Frankly, even if you wanted to lie, I can't see how lying about your ethnicity would help you get the job. In my mind, it's fantasy land to think you are losing out on the job because you are white. You are losing out because you are 1) inexperienced, 2) the job isn't real, 3) you aren't related to someone in the company, or 4) many other reasons.

 

[Choppy]

With respect to the issue of networking...

Recruitment nowadays for students and graduates is handled almost exclusively online, increasingly via long and drawn out application forms too. Attending said events does not allow you to bypass the system, or get a head start. None of the information presented or given will not be able to be found online quite easily on the company's students/graduates webpage. They only exist because companies are worried that if they don't run these types of events then the calibre of students/graduates they want to attract won't bother to spend several nights of their life filling out their application forms.

A lot of older people advise "networking" to students/graduates. Networking is about forming mutually beneficial relationships. As a student or graduate (i.e. not a professional) you can only take, not give back, and thus professionals have no reason to want to form a relationship with you over the hundreds or thousands of other desperate students there.

Instead you're far better off spending the time actually filling in the online application form. And when you do, make sure you use the same language as what is used in company literature, since software that picks out keywords is becoming increasingly common.

There is a disconnect between how "networking" is being portrayed here and in the original post compared to what most people mean when they advise "networking" as a component of successfully marketing yourself. For the record, I realize "networking" is one of those vaguely defined buzzwords that can mean a lot of different things.

I think it's important to point out though that simply going to a job fair, attending presentations and handing out your CV is only a tiny portion of what it means and how it can help you.

Networking means talking to people. It means gathering intelligence. You don't have to form a relationship with every person in the field you come across to "network." Just because someone isn't hiring does't mean that you can't learn something from him or her. Consider, for example, finding out what qualities were common to the candidates short-listed for a position the last time there was a job-opening, or finding out what the interview process was like, what questions were asked - all of that is gold for tailoring your resume.

Another key point to figure out is who will be hiring in the near future. Applying in response to a job posting get you to the back of the line. Applying just as a company creates the position gets you to the front. How do you figure this out? You ask questions.

Something else to keep in mind is that even posting in and reading these forums is a form of networking.

 

[Rika]

I'm reading a book by Daniel Kahneman right now called "Thinking Fast and Slow" and in it he talks about how people tend to select in favour of familiar, easy to understand things and select against difficult or abstract things.

But it doesn't mean that running successful big business is any easier or require less intelligence than physics. It just require different skills and approach but I don't want people to think - more abstract=more superior because that's nor true.

We have had very few entry level jobs lately. Thanks to HR policies, they're looking for experience and certification everywhere --even for ditch diggers. I'm not sure what to say to a new graduate except that you should attempt to acquire work experience that is relevant to your career while you're attending school.

It's pretty standard in my country. You study part-time/full-time only to get "pass" mark (employers don't care about grades) and dedicate yourself to work (interships aren't paid) in order to get valuable job experience. Networking is part of our "job market culture" too.

I think I can understand these kids through. My country is poor so we have never experienced american prosperity but still there were better times. Our parents have lived more comfortable, less stressful life. It was like going from "hard but ok living mode" to "very hard mode". We are frustrated that our generation needs to work much more for much less (money, benefits, career prospects) than our parents.

So I think american kids are even more frustrated because they went from "omg america is soo rich, prosperity, google and microsoft, sex, drugs, rock'n'roll" to "very hard mode" so for them shock is even bigger. Kids from my country are used to high demands for entry-level jobs, working and studying at the same time, networking, "lying" (not real lying bur rather selling ourselfs to employer) and fighting for jobs with all their might so I think american kids will be ok too.

Remmeber - "good, old times" are over. You need to get a grip and start to adapt. That's the only thing that you can do.

 

[jesse73]

Frankly, even if you wanted to lie, I can't see how lying about your ethnicity would help you get the job. In my mind, it's fantasy land to think you are losing out on the job because you are white. You are losing out because you are 1) inexperienced, 2) the job isn't real, 3) you aren't related to someone in the company, or 4) many other reasons.

yeah.

Lying about something that you will immediately be caught for during an interview is not just dishonest but dumb.

It is just dumb on so many levels. Couldnt you just as easily lie about possessing a skill that is relevant for the position and have a lower probability of getting caught. As if writing that you are a minority makes up for not knowing C++ when applying for a C++ position when you could just as easily lie about writing java code on your own time for years which is at least a tangentially related skill and be less likely to get caught after learning some java basics in a few hours.

uugh

 

[inotyce]

Résumé or CV to me is simply like a cover, if I am an interviewer, I wouldn't care about it much but it is necessary because I can learn what the candidates have been through (even when all are lies); I understand the current job, what I need to focus on, what to maintain and expand further in the project resources I am working on and thus I would question my candidates only those related things. There should be basic theoretical questions to qualify their background. Those interviewers who point out any lies in their candidate's CV during the meeting seem inexperienced in interviews, life and HR management and mostly still *young*, physically and mentally. Do you want to work for a single or narrow minded manager ?
I express a lot of my personal ideas here and too am looking forward to meeting and learning from any physicists of the same stand.