10^9 GeV dispersed collision energy

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of dispersed collision energy, specifically questioning whether everyday objects can achieve energies on the order of 10^19 GeV. Participants explore comparisons between high-energy particle collisions, such as those at the LHC, and more familiar scenarios involving cars or trains. The conversation also touches on energy conversion between GeV and Joules, and the implications of such energy scales in practical terms.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire about whether collisions of everyday objects like cars or trains can exceed 10^19 GeV in dispersed energy.
  • There are requests for calculations to convert energy units from GeV to Joules, with specific examples involving the kinetic energy of trains and ships.
  • One participant attempts to manually convert GeV to Joules and questions the practical implications of such energy, comparing it to natural phenomena like tornadoes.
  • Another participant discusses the relationship between energy and distance scales in particle physics, asking for formulas related to energy levels like 1 GeV and 1.5 TeV.
  • Several participants share calculations and examples to illustrate the energy scales, including comparisons to everyday energy consumption and potential energy scenarios.
  • There is a mention of the inverse square law in relation to energy distribution and photon interactions.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about the calculations and seek clarification on the energy scales and their implications.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion contains multiple competing views and remains unresolved regarding the equivalence of dispersed collision energy in everyday objects compared to high-energy particle collisions. Participants have differing opinions on the calculations and implications of energy conversion, and no consensus is reached on the practical examples of such energy levels.

Contextual Notes

Participants express limitations in finding reliable converters for GeV to Joules and the complexity of calculating kinetic energy for various masses and velocities. There are also unresolved questions about the exact formulas relating energy to distance scales in particle physics.

jtlz
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When cars or trains collide.. does it exceed 10^19 for the total dispersed energy? I know that in particle accelerator you need to focus this much energy in the Planck scale to probe it. So I just want to know what is the equivalent everyday object that has this 10^19 GeV only its not focused at small area but dispersed (so useless as particle accelerator).

It is often asked what's it's like to have 13 TeV collision at the LHC.. like what bigger object has similar dispersed collision energy. So I want to know what bigger object has at least 10^19 GeV dispersed collision energy.
 
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jtlz said:
When cars or trains collide.. does it exceed 10^19 for the total dispersed energy? I know that in particle accelerator you need to focus this much energy in the Planck scale to probe it. So I just want to know what is the equivalent everyday object that has this 10^19 GeV only its not focused at small area but dispersed (so useless as particle accelerator).

It is often asked what's it's like to have 13 TeV collision at the LHC.. like what bigger object has similar dispersed collision energy. So I want to know what bigger object has at least 10^19 GeV dispersed collision energy.
Do you know how to convert units of energy from eV to Joules? Using the SI system of units, you can calculate the KE of a train in Joules, which will go to zero in a collision. Use Google to find the mass of a typical heavy train. Or even of a fully-loaded container ship. Please show us your calculations so we can check them. Thanks! :smile:
 
berkeman said:
Do you know how to convert units of energy from eV to Joules? Using the SI system of units, you can calculate the KE of a train in Joules, which will go to zero in a collision. Use Google to find the mass of a typical heavy train. Or even of a fully-loaded container ship. Please show us your calculations so we can check them. Thanks! :smile:

I can't find any converter of GeV to Joules... most of them have only eV to Joules.. and I don't want to keep typing too many zeros... so I was asking if anyone knows roughly from reading books of what's Planck scale energy is like compared to everyday objects...
 
jtlz said:
I can't find any converter of GeV to Joules... most of them have only eV to Joules.. and I don't want to keep typing too many zeros... so I was asking if anyone knows roughly from reading books of what's Planck scale energy is like compared to everyday objects...
What does the letter "G" stand for as a prefix for a number?
 
berkeman said:
What does the letter "G" stand for as a prefix for a number?

Ok i'll attempt manual convertion since I can't find a converter for this.

1 GeV = 1 billion eV or 1 x 10^9 eV

1J = 6.241509⋅10^18 eV

so 1J = 6.241509⋅10^18 eV * (1 GeV /10^9 eV) = 6.241509 x 10^9 GeV

so the Planck energy 10^19 GeV x (1J / 6.24 x 10^9 GeV) = 1.6 x 10^10 Joule

how big is 1.6 X 10^10 Joule? equivalent to a tornado or hurricane plucking a tree or lifting cars? what?
 
jtlz said:
Ok i'll attempt manual convertion since I can't find a converter for this.

1 GeV = 1 billion eV or 1 x 10^9 eV

1J = 6.241509⋅10^18 eV

so 1J = 6.241509⋅10^18 eV * (1 GeV /10^9 eV) = 6.241509 x 10^9 GeV

so the Planck energy 10^19 GeV x (1J / 6.24 x 10^9 GeV) = 1.6 x 10^10 Joule

how big is 1.6 X 10^10 Joule? equivalent to a tornado or hurricane plucking a tree or lifting cars? what?

I'm trying out some online calculator site about mass, velocity and kinetic energy in joules... https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/physics/kinetic.php

I entered the mass and energy to come up with the kinetic energy near 1.6 x 10^10 Joules...

I entered mass of 30,000 kilograms and velocity of 1000 meters /second..

really? you need that much weight and speed to reach Planck energy? Or is there some mistakes somewhere?
 
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When an electron moves through 1 volt in an electric field, it changes energy by 1 eV.
Energy = Q * V. The charge on the electron; Qe = 1.60217653e-19 coulomb.
Therefore; 1 eV = 1.60217653e-19 coulomb * 1 volt = 1.60217653e-19 joule. So 1 joule = 6.241e+18 eV

The 13 TeV at the LHC = 13.0e12 * 1.602e-19 = 2.08 uJ

Potential Energy = m∙g∙h; where g = 9.8 m/s/s on Earth.
If you drop a 1.02 kg brick on your foot, from a height of 1 metre, it delivers energy of;
1.02 kg * 9.8 m/s/s * 1 m = 10 joule.

That is 10 / 2.08e-6 = 5 million times as much as an electron from the LHC.

Your 10^19 GeV = 1e28 eV = 1e28 * 1.602e-19 joule = 1.602 GJ
If a satellite weighing 1020 kg fell on you from 100 km above it would deliver a pain equivalent of;
1020 * 9.8 * 100e3 = 1 GJ
 
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Guys.. what is the formula relating energy to distant scale.. for example. 1 GeV.. 1 TeV, 5 TeV.. etc. with the relevant scales.. for example 10^19 GeV related to Planck scale.. how about say 10^12 GeV. How do you compute the distant scale for this?
 
  • #10
There is the inverse square law that gives the energy per square metre of a radiating wavefront.
For a single photon, 1/r2 gives the probability of being hit, since photons maintain their energy until they hit something.
 
  • #11
Baluncore said:
There is the inverse square law that gives the energy per square metre of a radiating wavefront.
For a single photon, 1/r2 gives the probability of being hit, since photons maintain their energy until they hit something.

What is the formula that involves the energy...

In particle accelerator such as the LHC... what is the smallest distance the 1.5 TeV particle energy can probe? (noting that the 13 TeV is for the collision energy of the entire accelerating protons.. so each individual particle would have less energy than that.. so it's about 1.5 TeV maximum now)..

So given particle energy = 1.5 TeV..
what is the distance scale (in meters it can probe).. what's the exact formula?
 
  • #12
jtlz said:
So given particle energy = 1.5 TeV..
what is the distance scale (in meters it can probe).. what's the exact formula?
Sorry that I seem to just be feeding you wiki pages, but see the table here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronvolt
 
  • #13
Baluncore said:
When an electron moves through 1 volt in an electric field, it changes energy by 1 eV.
Energy = Q * V. The charge on the electron; Qe = 1.60217653e-19 coulomb.
Therefore; 1 eV = 1.60217653e-19 coulomb * 1 volt = 1.60217653e-19 joule. So 1 joule = 6.241e+18 eV

The 13 TeV at the LHC = 13.0e12 * 1.602e-19 = 2.08 uJ

Potential Energy = m∙g∙h; where g = 9.8 m/s/s on Earth.
If you drop a 1.02 kg brick on your foot, from a height of 1 metre, it delivers energy of;
1.02 kg * 9.8 m/s/s * 1 m = 10 joule.

That is 10 / 2.08e-6 = 5 million times as much as an electron from the LHC.

Your 10^19 GeV = 1e28 eV = 1e28 * 1.602e-19 joule = 1.602 GJ
If a satellite weighing 1020 kg fell on you from 100 km above it would deliver a pain equivalent of;
1020 * 9.8 * 100e3 = 1 GJ

Can you think of a more everyday example of what 1.602 GJ can do? What examples do particle physicists use to illustrate what it's like to probe Planck scale with particle accelerator... like imagine 2 trains colliding and all the energy were focused on the Planck scale? but trains come in different masses.. perhaps a bus colliding.. or better yet. what examples were exactly used by physicists to illustrate the large Planck scale energy?
 
  • #14
jtlz said:
Can you think of a more everyday example of what 1.602 GJ can do?
If you turned on a 2.645 kW electric heater, then kept it going for one whole week, it would transfer 1.6 GJ.

Energy flow; 1 joule per second = 1 watt.
Electrical energy is sold by the; unit = 1 kW∙Hour = 1k * 60 min * 60 sec = 3.6 MJ
If one unit costs you $0.20, then $1.00 will get you 18 MJ.
So 1.6 GW would add $88.89 to your electricity bill.
 
  • #15
Let's compute some figures...

formula of Kinetic Energy = 1/2 m * v^2 (this is also used for momentum of a particle?)
given velocity = 250 meters / second (average speed of airliner)
and Kinetic Energy of =1.6 GJ
the mass needs to be 51,200 kilograms (approx. weight of a Boeing 737 I checked in the weights of airliner lists)

therefore to get Planck energy is like having a Boeing 737 flying at 250 meters/second...

but then would it still be right to say that to get probe Planck scale is like having Boeing 737 flying at 250 meters/second crashing into a building and the energy focusing into the Planck scale?
 

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