20 Megapascals of negative pressure... What? Please explain

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of negative pressure in the context of ultrasound waves, specifically addressing the claim of achieving 20 Megapascals of negative pressure. Participants explore the implications of this phenomenon, its measurement, and its potential applications, particularly in medical contexts such as targeted cell destruction through cavitation.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express confusion about the meaning of negative pressure and its measurement, questioning the polarity of pressure in relation to the geometry of the surface used.
  • One participant notes that negative pressure can be understood as tension, referencing cohesive forces in fluids that lead to absolute negative pressure.
  • Another participant argues that 20MPa is not an exceptional value, comparing it to the tension in a string under specific conditions, and suggests that the term "extremely powerful ultrasound" may be misleading.
  • It is proposed that ultrasound can oscillate between positive and negative pressures, leading to cavitation if the negative pressure is sustained long enough, which can cause localized cell damage.
  • A participant outlines a potential method for using ultrasound to target cells without causing collateral damage through controlled cavitation, emphasizing the importance of burst-spacing and intensity.
  • One participant references a study achieving -1 MPa in water within a synthetic hydrogel, suggesting that -20 MPa as a transient state before cavitation is plausible.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the interpretation of negative pressure or its implications. Multiple competing views remain regarding the definitions and applications of negative pressure in ultrasound contexts.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding the definitions of pressure polarity and the conditions under which negative pressure can be sustained without cavitation. The discussion also highlights the complexity of measuring and interpreting pressure in fluid dynamics.

DaveE
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This article (sorry, there's a paywall) describes ultrasound waves creating 20 Megapascals of negative pressure. What does that mean?

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I can see how, following cavity collapse, there can be a negative pressure transient of 20MPa, but that would be measured relative to the positive impulse of 20MPa, delivered by the final closure of a cavity.
 
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So I guess pressure is just a measure of net force over a defined surface. The acceleration of particles in some local area?

I'm confused about the sign. Is the bubble created with positive pressure on the inside, or negative pressure from the outside? I guess that pressure is a scalar and the direction would be defined by the geometry of the surface used. So we could chose any polarity we like. Is there an obvious, or standard, polarity definition?

PS: Wikipedia says negative pressure is tension, positive is compression. That seems to make sense.
 
DaveE said:
Wikipedia says negative pressure is tension
Have not read the article, but fluids can have absolute negative pressure (tension) due to the cohesive forces between molecules (also responsible for surface tension).
 
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A few thoughts...

20MPa is not exceptional. E.g. 20MPa is the tension in a 1mm diameter vertical string with 1.6kg hanging from it. Think of that as a ‘pressure’ of -20MPa.

The article refers to ‘extremely powerful ultrasound’ which sounds dramatic but may be misleading. The author probably means ‘high intensity ultrasound’ - intensity of not the same as power.

When ultrasound passes through a liquid, pressure oscillates between positive and negative values. If the pressure is sufficiently negative for long enough, then cavitation (bubble formation) occurs – followed by collapse of the bubble as the pressure increases. In tissue, this can cause localised cell-damage.

I think the article should be saying this:

- we can use a pattern of widely-spaced, high intensity, short bursts of ultrasound;

- the lowest pressure (-20MPa) and duration (##\sim \mu s##) of each burst is sufficient to cause controlled cavitation resulting in local cell-damage;

- with a suitable choice of burst-spacing there is relatively little unwanted heating of non-target cells.

So target cells are destroyed without collateral damage caused by excess heat.

This means cavitation is no longer a nuisance. It can be used as the main mechanism to destroy targetted (unhealthy) cells.

Minor edits.
 
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One big advantage of using ultrasound is that, the same array of transducers that images the target, can be used to strike the target, since the two-way transit times will be accurately known.
The imaging system can also correct for cyclic patient movement due to pulse and respiration.
 
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Steve4Physics said:
the lowest pressure (-20MPa) and duration (##\sim \mu s##) of each burst is sufficient to cause controlled cavitation resulting in local cell-damage;
In the below linked study (also paywalled) they achieved -1 MPa in water within a synthetic hydrogel, presumably sustained without cavitation:
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature07226

So -20 MPa as a transient state, just before cavitation occurs seems plausible.
 

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